Manufacturers that can't adapt ...... are doomed

[Falcon Freak]

Two things are a MUST for the next all new Falcon which is due in early 2008 (code name Orion):

1. ensure that the new model is no heavier than the current car at minimum and lighter than the current car should be the target

2. Introduce a smaller capacity version of the 6 cylinder engine. Up to the EA model Ford offered two capacities of the 6 cylinder for more than 20 years. Not everybody needs four litres of donk which puts out 190kW of power. A three odd litre version of the current engine would have approximately 140kw. It wasn't that long ago that this was the most power you could get in a Falcon. And a lot of people found it to be adequate. Those who don't can get the larger 6 cylinder version. As the Orion will have a 5-speed auto for the poverty pack models I see this could work very well will a say 3.2 litre engine.

FF

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Steffo i have a 03 V6 rodeo, it cost 42k and gets 320klm out of a tank of petrol towing a 7"x5" box trailer, my mate has a 03 turbo diesel Navara it cost 38k and gets 600klm out of a tank towing a bigger and heavier tandam trailer, plus diesel is 6 cents a litre cheaper than petrol atm, simple economics.
Also a diesel lasts longer than a petrol engine.

From what I've found.. 2003 Rodeo V6 = 76 litre tank.

Navara diesel = 75 litre tank.

So... 600km out of 75 litres is 12.5 litres/100km

320km out of 76 litres is 23.7 litres/100km

We'll use these figures as averge consumption. I'll also use the figures for 91 RON, Diesel and LPG I observed today as examples, $1.19/L for 91 RON, $1.31/L for Diesela and $0.39/L for LPG respectively.

I'll also use the amount of driving I'd do on average a week when working in the city from my house etc as an example (about 500km).

So with the diesel car, I'm getting 600km to the tank, using 500 a week, that's 5/6ths of my tank. 5/6ths of 75 litres is 62.5 litres. So every week, I'm putting 62.5litres of diesel into my car, at $1.31/litre, that's $81.88 a week. Multiplty that by 52 weeks, and we get $4,257.76 in fuel bills per year.

Now, with the petrol engine, I'm only getting 320km to the tank. Which means I've got to fill up the tank plus an extra 42.66 litres to make 500km, every week. 76 + 42.66 = 118.66 litres a week. Multiplied by $1.19 a litre, that's $141.21, by 52 weeks, $7,342.92 a year in fuel costs.

Now, say I decided to convert the petrol car to dedicated LPG. That's approx $2500. Now, on average, one burns 1.2 litres of LPG for every 1 litre of petrol, so, multiply our 23.7litre/100km figure by 1.2 and you get 28.44/100km. Now, since my car is now dedicated LPG, I've put a gas bottle where the petrol tank was, so for this example, we'll use the same capacity figure of 76 litres.

Now, 76 litres and 28.44/100km will net me 267km per tank. So, lets just say, for this example, I fill up 76L twice a week. 76 x $0.39 = $29.64, x 2 = $59.28 per week. Multiply that by 52 weeks in a year and you get $3,082.56 in total for the LPG vehicle.

So, that's a $4,260.36 saving over petrol for the year (thus paying off the conversion costs, and then some)... and $1,175.20/year cheaper to run then the diesel car.

Ahem. LPG = Way of the near future (until we go hydrogen or whatever) for Australia

At least, that's how I see it.

[Polyal]

interesting info you have there FF....you might want to say where you got that info before misleading people?

[XplosiveR6]

Originally Posted by Falcon Freak

Two things are a MUST for the next all new Falcon which is due in early 2008 (code name Orion):

1. ensure that the new model is no heavier than the current car at minimum and lighter than the current car should be the target

2. Introduce a smaller capacity version of the 6 cylinder engine. Up to the EA model Ford offered two capacities of the 6 cylinder for more than 20 years. Not everybody needs four litres of donk which puts out 190kW of power. A three odd litre version of the current engine would have approximately 140kw. It wasn't that long ago that this was the most power you could get in a Falcon. And a lot of people found it to be adequate. Those who don't can get the larger 6 cylinder version. As the Orion will have a 5-speed auto for the poverty pack models I see this could work very well will a say 3.2 litre engine.

FF

140kw simply will not cut it in a car that weighs very close to 2tons (remember these falcons with this power weighed alot less then the current), having a small capacity motor has nothing to do with fuel savings, having an underpowered engine will probably use more fuel as it has to work a hell of alot harder, then an efficiant, low reving 4.0

[XplosiveR6]

Originally Posted by Steffo

From what I've found.. 2003 Rodeo V6 = 76 litre tank.

Navara diesel = 75 litre tank.

So... 600km out of 75 litres is 12.5 litres/100km

320km out of 76 litres is 23.7 litres/100km

We'll use these figures as averge consumption. I'll also use the figures for 91 RON, Diesel and LPG I observed today as examples, $1.19/L for 91 RON, $1.31/L for Diesela and $0.39/L for LPG respectively.

I'll also use the amount of driving I'd do on average a week when working in the city from my house etc as an example (about 500km).

So with the diesel car, I'm getting 600km to the tank, using 500 a week, that's 5/6ths of my tank. 5/6ths of 75 litres is 62.5 litres. So every week, I'm putting 62.5litres of diesel into my car, at $1.31/litre, that's $81.88 a week. Multiplty that by 52 weeks, and we get $4,257.76 in fuel bills per year.

Now, with the petrol engine, I'm only getting 320km to the tank. Which means I've got to fill up the tank plus an extra 42.66 litres to make 500km, every week. 76 + 42.66 = 118.66 litres a week. Multiplied by $1.19 a litre, that's $141.21, by 52 weeks, $7,342.92 a year in fuel costs.

Now, say I decided to convert the petrol car to dedicated LPG. That's approx $2500. Now, on average, one burns 1.2 litres of LPG for every 1 litre of petrol, so, multiply our 23.7litre/100km figure by 1.2 and you get 28.44/100km. Now, since my car is now dedicated LPG, I've put a gas bottle where the petrol tank was, so for this example, we'll use the same capacity figure of 76 litres.

Now, 76 litres and 28.44/100km will net me 267km per tank. So, lets just say, for this example, I fill up 76L twice a week. 76 x $0.39 = $29.64, x 2 = $59.28 per week. Multiply that by 52 weeks in a year and you get $3,082.56 in total for the LPG vehicle.

So, that's a $4,260.36 saving over petrol for the year (thus paying off the conversion costs, and then some)... and $1,175.20/year cheaper to run then the diesel car.

Ahem. LPG = Way of the near future (until we go hydrogen or whatever) for Australia

At least, that's how I see it.

um falcon coupe was quoting figues from a diesel towing large trailers, trailers make your car suck huge amounts of fuel, in some cases a large trailer can half the distance from a tank.

anyway, with LPG currently at 50cpl at some places, and will be taxed in the short future, i doubt its worth the conversion cost

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by EF_Dave

um falcon coupe was quoting figues from a diesel towing large trailers, trailers make your car suck huge amounts of fuel, in some cases a large trailer can half the distance from a tank.

anyway, with LPG currently at 50cpl at some places, and will be taxed in the short future, i doubt its worth the conversion cost

Yep, and in pretty much any given situation, towing, idling in traffic, cruising etc.. the LPG car is cheaper.

Plus, LPG isn't getting taxed until 2007. I wonder how much petrol will cost by then?

[Falcon Coupe]

Not to mention lpg kits for RA rodeos were taken off the market due to problems including regularly blowing airbox apart and taking out the o2 sensor at the same time, so i looked into gas injection, that kit cost nealy 5k and the injectors need replacing evey 40,000klm, plus the shorter engine life on lpg throws that option out the window.
So, they way i see it, diesel with double milage towing a trailer over petrol is the way to go.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Not to mention lpg kits for RA rodeos were taken off the market due to problems including regularly blowing airbox apart and taking out the o2 sensor at the same time, so i looked into gas injection, that kit cost nealy 5k and the injectors need replacing evey 40,000klm, plus the shorter engine life on lpg throws that option out the window.
So, they way i see it, diesel with double milage towing a trailer over petrol is the way to go.

All those issues can be fixed, and engine life on LPG is longer then petrol. Shorter engine life is one of the common myths associated with LPG, a few others being major consumption increase, major power loss, that it's extremley dangerous etc etc.

IMO the injection kit is worth it.. it'll pay itself off in a year and a bit - two years absolute max.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Steffo

All those issues can be fixed, and engine life on LPG is longer then petrol. Shorter engine life is one of the common myths associated with LPG, a few others being major consumption increase, major power loss, that it's extremley dangerous etc etc.

Steffo,
im looking forward to reading the results from the long term LPG v Petrol test you're conducting!
Especially after you've pulled both motors apart to check wear rates etc, when will the results be in??!! :Reverend:

Ive said it before and ill say it again, LPG is for barbeques!!! :Reverend:

[Bluehoon]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ive said it before and ill say it again, LPG is for barbeques!!! :Reverend:

AND TAXI'S!!!!!!! :Reverend:

Maybe Steffo is testin this theory on a AU cab..... :

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Steffo

All those issues can be fixed, and engine life on LPG is longer then petrol. Shorter engine life is one of the common myths associated with LPG, a few others being major consumption increase, major power loss, that it's extremley dangerous etc etc.

IMO the injection kit is worth it.. it'll pay itself off in a year and a bit - two years absolute max.

A correctly maintained LPG engine should have the same or better life span than its petrol counterpart, but that's rarely the case & the manufacturers know it.

The reasons;
LPG produces more acids than petrol, the oil breaks down quicker but looks clean, the acids attack bearings & seals. Check out the recomendations from the manufacturers, you'll see that LPG engines require a higher rating.
LPG also causes oil to thicken with age, so not changing oil & filter at specified intervals leaves a too thick oil to circulate to the valve train.
Petrol has a natural cooling effect, this causes the air/fuel charge to be denser (more power) and also helps cool the valve & top piston ring. LPG does not have this, so there is more heat stress in the combustion chamber.

So there is good and bad with LPG.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by johnydep

A correctly maintained LPG engine should have the same or better life span than its petrol counterpart, but that's rarely the case & the manufacturers know it.

The reasons;
LPG produces more acids than petrol, the oil breaks down quicker but looks clean, the acids attack bearings & seals. Check out the recomendations from the manufacturers, you'll see that LPG engines require a higher rating.
LPG also causes oil to thicken with age, so not changing oil & filter at specified intervals leaves a too thick oil to circulate to the valve train.
Petrol has a natural cooling effect, this causes the air/fuel charge to be denser (more power) and also helps cool the valve & top piston ring. LPG does not have this, so there is more heat stress in the combustion chamber.

So there is good and bad with LPG.

Yes, this maybe the case but were all eagerly awaiting the results of Steffo's in depth scientific analysis of both his test vehicles! :

[Citric GT]

4Vman & I seem to have dissagreed on most things, but yes, LPG is for BBQs. Its horrible, it adds weight, it stinks, it has an ugly red sticker on your number plate and an even uglier metal filler cap on the side of the car...yuk yuk yuk!

[Black XR6]

Does anybody actually have hard data on LPG and the damage it does to engines reducing engine life or possibly even data on the incident rate of major failures in LPG installations compared to actual installation numbers.

So far all im reading is opinion and nothing put forward as actual fact or researched in any obvious way.

Oh, and according to this article HERE The government wont be taxing LPG till 2011 and even then only 12.5c/L. The current Government excise on petrol is 37.7c/L in vic.

[RED_EL_XR8]

What does a tired BBQ fuel debate have to do with this topic?
Even Burke & Wills never made it this far off track!!

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Black XR6

Does anybody actually have hard data on LPG and the damage it does to engines reducing engine life or possibly even data on the incident rate of major failures in LPG installations compared to actual installation numbers.

So far all im reading is opinion and nothing put forward as actual fact or researched in any obvious way.

This article has some interesting info about LPG... sorry about the poor quality... glossy paper > my scanner.. heh

[Black XR6]

Well Stefo, Ill put that one down as a stroke in the LPG is good column. Anybody got anything printed or on the web that demonstrates how bad it is?

[merlin]

I wonder if sales of Fords E-Gas Falcon have increased with recent petrol pricing? I was looking at buying a base model petrol BA ute, but now very interested in the E-gas option

[t2te50]

I know it roots valve stem seals quick fast. When I pulled my old clevo out not one was intact they were all lying in the bottom of the sump both exhaust and inlet!

[Black XR6]

So we have info stating:

The gov wont be taxing LPG till 2011. And then only 1/3 pf the current petrol tax.

LPG systems are simpler wth no need for surge tanks, electronic fuel pumps, carbies, injectors and ECU's in most cases.

Its cleaner, high octane, and runs smoother

Oil stays cleaner longer and LPG dosnt contaminate oil

Less Ring Wear

Less risk of spillage in accidents and less risk of fire hazard

Sounds good so far!

[t2te50]

Less rind wear :
When combustion temperatures are higher and lack of lubricating properties playing havoc with your cylinder cross hatch pattern? Not to mention the abuse that the guides and valve seats cop espesialy on the exhaust side. I don't think so. out:

[Black XR6]

Below is a quote from this website.

Challenging the Myths There are more myths surrounding LPG conversions than facts. Some misconceptions are based on poor quality LPG conversion systems - others are based on pure air. Some of the major misconceptions are addressed below:-

Power loss - The Power Loss on a quality LPG conversion is around 1% - 3%, which is imperceptible to most people. Some systems can reduce power by 10% or more - so choosing the right system is vitally important.

Safety of LPG - The use of LPG is strictly controlled by State and Federal Government regulations. Statistics prove that gas powered cars are just as safe, if not safer, than their petrol powered equivalents - even in severe collisions. Insurance No Australian insurance company is known to increase it's premium on LPG powered vehicles.

Vehicle warranty - Quality LPG conversions meet all Holden, Mazda and Ford warranty requirements along with those of most other manufactures. Be aware that some LPG conversions do mot comply with all ADR emission rules and vehicle manufacture specifications.

Compatibility - Very few LPG conversion systems are fully compatible with modern electronic engine management systems. Hi-Tech Auto Gas provides optimum engine performance by using on board gas computers and sensors in exactly the same way as the original petrol injection system.

Engine wear - Engines running on LPG have less engine wear than those on petrol because gas is a dry fuel which does not wash oil from cylinders as petrol does. The clean burning of LPG also results in smoother engine running.
The environment - Tests conducted by the Victorian Environment Protection Authority and the NSW State Pollution Control Commission in 1988 on dual-fuel (petrol/autogas) vehicles with catalytic converters demonstrate that auto gas produces less smog emissions than petrol. These tests revealed emissions of hydrocarbons are approximately 30% lower from autogas than petrol.

[Black XR6]

Originally Posted by t2te50

Less rind wear :
When combustion temperatures are higher and lack of lubricating properties playing havoc with your cylinder cross hatch pattern? Not to mention the abuse that the guides and valve seats cop espesialy on the exhaust side. I don't think so. out:

Other than in your own engine which is one in millions, do you have any actual documented facts or actual researched data to show?

Another quoted section from a web page. HERE

In 1987 I embarked on a project to convert my car to run on LPG (aka propane) instead of gasoline. What little I knew at that time indicated it would be a great motor fuel. I built the car in 1989/1990, and wrote it up as a small booklet, "Do-It-Yourself Automotive LPG Conversion", and amazingly, sold about 1200 copies in two years mostly through the Real Goods Trading Company (Ukiah, CA).

It's now 2003, and I'm still driving the same car. Not only have I not had any problems with the fuel system (hardly any with the car at all), it's actually running substantially better -- on long highway trips I get nearly 21 MPG equivelant (see below for LPG/gasoline comparisons), nearly a 20% improvement over the claimed mileage of this car when new (18 MPG with standard transmission and overdrive). This isn't bad math or wishful thinking -- I have fuel consumption/mileage data back to 1998. Around town (Los Angeles city driving) I get approx. 15 MPG gasoline equivelent. Below is the original booklet, updated in Mar 94, Apr 97, Nov 98, plus additional accumulated technical information. For a fuel that's been around since the 1920's there's shockingly little available information.

My conclusion to the question, is LPG any good as a motor fuel? An unqualified yes. It easily burns clean, being a small-molecule gas (products mainly water and carbon dioxide, and less of that per-mile) and cheap. It has no complex additives that I can determine (eg. no MTBE, lead, ethyl-anything). But not profitable for oil companies. Read on if you care. There might even be enough information for you to duplicate my efforts, for the very few people who care.

The above is a personal opinion, not scientifically researched. But he has used LPG extensively.

[t2te50]

Mate you never take a leaf out of the beuracrats book their a pack of scum bags that are just intersted in filling their own pockets. Out in the REAL WORLD ive seen the consequences of poor gas installations which most are.
The problem stems from poor placement of converters/mixing bowls and poor tuning. Gas is very tempermental in that running it too rich/lean will root your engine while in a petrol engine its MAINLY running lean is what you need to be worried about.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Black XR6

Below is a quote from http://www.hitechautogas.com.au/myths.html

And they are pro gas, they don't see a single problem, funny that and the being in the business of promoting gas based products, what a coincidence.

This gas debate has nothing to do with the topic, BBQ conversions and comparisons are something quite different from manufacturer willingness to offer E-Gas etc.

Car manufactures will cater their product to the wishes of those actually in the market for new vehicles, simple business survival.

[Black XR6]

I think its on topic enough. Considreing we are talking about companies not willing to adapt and adopt cheaper fuel technology wether its better petrol consumption or an alternative fuel.

Believe me Ive tried to find good and bad website about LPG. Havent found one website that proclaims its bad.

[TheSneakiness]

Why are some people bagging gas here?

I run dual fuel on my ute, I get an extra 600km range just by having gas. There's a 75 litre petrol tank, which gets filled $20- $30 at a time when the DTE hits 80 or lower. I also have an 80 litre gas tank, which costs me no more than $35 to fill.

Both these tanks get me over a 1000km range, which means I fill up on average once every 10 days. I agree with some that gas is the way to go. Even if you go dual fuel, you're still saving money.

Yes, I'm not in the best mood either, people who are bagging gas, don't knock it until you try it.

[t2te50]

Any taxi drivers here? How do you guys get maximum engine life? Do you run the engine on petrol for a few kms once a fortnight or something?

[jmc-007]

The last thing we need is more diesels on the road. its bad enough with people owning cars they cannot maintain. let alone more smokey diesels.


i see so many unserviced diesel landcruisers and other mitsubishi's and other makes its not funny. blowing big clouds of soot.

People are attacking this from the wrong angle.

BioDiesel and Bio Alcohol blended fuels or striaght bio fuels are the way to go.


but hell Sultin Durka Durka wont make any money if we dont buy crude oil. and shell, bp and mobil cant make squilions in coullison with the govt either.

(excise etc, gst)


It all comes down to Not the environment but how much money can be made from the plebs.

Govt and big corps.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Black XR6

I think its on topic enough. Considreing we are talking about companies not willing to adapt and adopt cheaper fuel technology wether its better petrol consumption or an alternative fuel.

Believe me Ive tried to find good and bad website about LPG. Havent found one website that proclaims its bad.

Who is not willing? Ford offer a dedicated E-GAS vehicle for the small sector of the buying market that wish to utilise it. LPG an alternative fuel which may or may not be cheaper depending on the vehicles application.

If there were substantial savings and cost benefits to be made dont you think the high volume korean economy cars would have adapted to what is a pre-existing rather than innovative technology?