Powershift data logs and P0715

[NZ XR6]

Ford should fix it. Clearly a defective part - I can't see how wear or abuse could cause a speed sensor to fail!

[Mondaveo]

So I sat on this for a while, but eventually finished writing my letter and sent it off three weeks ago. Possibly a bit overblown at four pages + copies of inspection reports and service history, but I wanted to tell the narrative along with the what and why they need to fix.

Got a call on Thursday from my new case manager Rhiannon.
She first told me that she'd done some background research and gave a verbal confirmation that it is a "manufacturing defect" (exact words: "I spoke to Rob at <dealership> who confirmed this repair is needed to fix a manufacturing defect").
Unfortunately the result of their review process, "owing to the fact the car was purchased out of factory warranty and that the extended warranty stays with the previous owner", is that Ford is not going to provide any assistance. "Buyer beware" she said.

Disappointed, of course, but I'm not done by a long shot.

I asked for clarification, "So you're telling me it's a manufacturing defect but Ford will not fix it?" But she got defensive and refused to confirm or deny: "I will not repeat myself".
She offered that the case could be re-submitted to review (with no promises the outcome will be any different) which I requested she do. If I think of anything to add I can submit it with the case number she gave me.

I'm now trying to get in touch with the previous owner and see if they'll share their service reports with me (including the Oct service where a hesitation was reported). If I can get that I'll add it and whatever other info they can give to my case with Ford.
And in the meantime will be looking to open a dispute through Fair Trading.

[rondeo]

'She first told me that she'd done some background research and gave a verbal confirmation that it is a "manufacturing defect" (exact words: "I spoke to Rob at <dealership> who confirmed this repair is needed to fix a manufacturing defect").'

This seems upside down.
Ford has to ask dealers what the case is?
Is Ford policy determined by dealers?
Where did the dealer get the information that it is a manufacturing defect?

Rant rant, Alice in Wonderland ....

Same thing happened to me when I enquired about BMS reset. I was told the dealership said. After three dealerships gave different answers I concluded Ford didn't exist\, but has a face at the dealer,
like the Cheshire Cat.

[Mondaveo]

Originally Posted by rondeo

This seems upside down.
Ford has to ask dealers what the case is?
Is Ford policy determined by dealers?
Where did the dealer get the information that it is a manufacturing defect?

It could be upside down. I didn't mean to imply that contacting the dealer was the sole point of research (although there's no statement otherwise); it would have been at least in part to confirm my story.

The key thing for me is that she used the term "manufacturing defect". I view that as tacit admission.

I don't know what the extent of "research" was and if there were other sources. It's an interesting thought that the dealer may have primed her to use that description. Would mean they are on my side?

[rondeo]

Just seems odd to me that someone can't stand up and state the facts as they are known to Ford.

Question is, who is Ford?

Maybe 'she' knows?

I hope (confusion between desire and probability?) they are on your side,
it does seem unfair that such expensive repairs are needed so soon in the life of the car.

[rondeo]

Not to mention insecurity about sudden loss of power.

[Gazzzaa]

Thanks to all in this thread for their research and assistance on the whole Powershift Mondeo saga. I decided that I don't have to time or the energy to fight the huge multinational known as Ford, so I traded out of my Mondeo yesterday and drove away in a brand new Focus Sport manual last night.

I do wish everyone all the best and will follow your progress with keen interest.

[Mondaveo]

Update.

On a suggestion I contacted the NRMA's Motoring Advice service to see if they had any ideas I'd not yet explored. The lady was very helpful, although she didn't have great news. Basically, Australian Consumer Law is weaksauce; it only covers direct consumers. Because of the chain of ownership the car has been through, I am not Ford's problem; their obligation stopped with the first owner. Not to say it wasn't worth trying with my letter, but there's nothing in law to compel them to fix the fault for me.

She did have one ray of hope for me though: since the previous owner and I relied on the service history and particularly the condition report on the last service invoice (which, remember, said mentioned a hesitation but said that all was well) to agree to the sale, I could try arguing that the condition of the car was not accurately represented by Ford (who should have known there was a latent fault behind it). Still a long shot but at least it's something else I can try.

However! I've since got in touch with the previous owner, and I might have better ammo. He kindly obtained and sent through to me this complete service summary from the dealership (apparently they don't keep detailed records after 12 months). It's in reverse date order, with most recent at the top. Note the items at lines #1 and #10:



Line #1 is where I had the fault confirmed. The same entry ('operation code' and description) appears with the 45,000km service back in 2012. This would seem to confirm that they found the same issue during the warranty period, but either didn't diagnose it properly or chose not to fix it then. My understanding is that would make them still liable.

I'm pretty excited by this, although there's a lot I don't understand in this summary that worries me a little. R/O's? Adv#? Tech maybe is 'technician'? Can anyone decipher?

[NZ XR6]

Hopefully that should help your case. They probably didn't realise the significance of the fault at the time, but it would appear it was there before you bought the car. Good luck.

Sent from somewhere using Tapatalk

[Mondaveo]

For some reason they keep changing my case manager. Latest one is Carmel. Rang last Wednesday, they've knocked me back for a second time. A bit surprised because I thought I had some good arguments, but they just keep repeating that the car is out of warranty.

What a joke, they didn't fix the issue when it was in warranty either. Way to win over customers, I doubt the missus will ever allow me to buy another Ford.

I've now lodged a complaint/request for advice with fair trading so we'll see how that goes. Although the repeated knockbacks tells me they must be pretty sure of their legal obligations (i.e. none) I'm not about to let them off easy. I think though I'm going to have to just get the thing fixed in the meantime and then the claim will be for reimbursement later.

[cobrin]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

I doubt the missus will ever allow me to buy another Ford.

I hear ya, if it helps all of them are the same Holden/Kia/Hyundai/BMW/VW teh list goes on. It's a systemic cancer in the Industry in AU and that blows. Hell if you were in my area I'd offer to DIY it lol.

[Deo]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

I think though I'm going to have to just get the thing fixed in the meantime

Sorry to hear that. For what it's worth here is the offending part on ebay:
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item...d=291805098247
Still a jip at that price for what it is and you'll also need various gaskets, fluid for the gearbox etc - the real cost though is just in the effort needed. :(


Sent from my GTi-9305 using bloody Tapatalk

[Mondaveo]

Thanks Deo. Through your tipoff I've found a couple of UK suppliers on ebay selling for around AU$150 + shipping. That's a substantial saving on the domestic price, but I'm not sure if I'd also have to source the seals you're meant to get?

Have been in touch with the transmission specialist and their quote is around 2/3 what I got from the dealer (under $2,500). They are willing to fit my components which brings the quote under $2K but there would be a question mark over warranty if for any reason it wasn't right afterwards. With their supplied parts the work would be warranted for 12mths/20,000km. It's probably a good argument to let the shop supply the parts?

Edit: looking at the quote, the only things itemised are the sensor AM7M5R7H103BA, transmission fluid, workshop consumables and labour. So it looks like no seals or other items from the Ford quote. If the ebay sensor is a genuine Ford AM7M5R7H103BA then it must have everything, and I must still get a 12mth guarantee? Also if it's getting new fluid I should make sure they change the transmission filter, yeah?

[Martyvan]

I have a DSG Volkswagen Jetta, and this is what scares me about the Twin Clutch transmissions... they work amazingly well when they work, but if something goes wrong, then everything goes belly up. (Touch wood, i havnt had any issues with mine)

@Mondaveo, this is amazing analysis, and being a number cruncher in the real world, I really like the level of detail you have gone into.

I really hope you get the outcome you are looking for in the end, you have been very thorough in your detail, and research and patient in your quest for getting it fixed.

[Deo]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

but I'm not sure if I'd also have to source the seals you're meant to get?

Yes I think that some other bits and pieces will be needed, but I'm only going from memory, sorry. I would say that the quote has only itemised the major component.
Will try to track down info when I get a chance.

Re: warranty, only you can make the call about whether the saving/cost is worth it to you.


Sent from my GTi-9305 using bloody Tapatalk

[Deo]

Can't find the video I've seen but you've got the info you need in the thread already - the technical documentation that Rondeo linked to, and the quote you got from Ford shows the rebuild kit (cover kit) that I was thinking of.
Basically there are some metal 'gaskets' which cannot always be removed without damage - perhaps if the tech goes slow and is very careful, but I suppose Ford did a cost-benefit analysis and decided it was more efficient to replace those bits each time.

You are correct, if the trans fluid is being changed you should put a new filter on too, they are relatively cheap.

[Mondaveo]

Originally Posted by Deo

the technical documentation that Rondeo linked to, and the quote you got from Ford shows the rebuild kit (cover kit) that I was thinking of.
Basically there are some metal 'gaskets' which cannot always be removed without damage

Thanks. I've re-read the technical document and found the statement about the clutch housing cover plate. They call it 'sacrificial' so I don't know why the other shop isn't ordering in a new AM7M5R7P099AA like Ford's quote, but they've done this job many times so I trust they know what they're doing. I might ask about it when I drop the car off (now booked for Tuesday 1st Nov).

Originally Posted by Deo

I suppose Ford did a cost-benefit analysis and decided it was more efficient to replace those bits each time.

Given the amount of work involved, it makes some sense they'd try to ensure they don't have to go back in there - probably the same reason they also want to change that second sensor AM7M5R7H103AA. It's probably also a list written more to fix warranty claims the first time than to minimise cost, which might be why they want to also bill me for coolant...

Odd that neither quote suggested changing the transmission fluid filter.

Originally Posted by Deo

Re: warranty, only you can make the call about whether the saving/cost is worth it to you.

Given that the cost of labour is in the vicinity of $1500, I've concluded it's not worth trying to save a few hundred on the part if it might mean I'd have to pay all over again for it to be redone. Were the sums different then it might be more worth pursuing.

[Mondaveo]

I got my car back from having the sensor changed today. Drivetrain feels great - shifts are smooth and seamless, and none of the tripping over itself that I was putting up with before. I only drove it from the workshop to home but hopefully it's all good from here on.

I got a response from Fair Trading, and their advice seemed encouraging. I then took one of the free consultations at the law society, but unfortunately the lawyer's assessment is I just don't have a strong case (at least against the parties I want to take aim at). About the best I could do is claim misrepresentation against (or team up with) the previous owner, and then they claim misrepresentation against Ford. Anything else (like arguing expectations of durability or their failure to rectify when it was detected during warranty) might fail the pub test for fairness, but it isn't backed up by law.

I'm just about out of ideas at this point. About the only other thing I can think of is to post something scathing on social media and see if that stirs any action. Otherwise, move on and spitefully avoid doing any further business with Ford and Ford dealers

[cobrin]

yeah get on with life and racking up the mileage to put it behind you, hopefully at least giving you your smile back sounds like a plan.

[NZ XR6]

Unfortunately, your experience with Ford AU sounds typical of everything I've read on this forum. I expect that your options are even more limited now that you've paid for the repair yourself.

As Cobrin says, the best thing is to move on and enjoy your car. Just be thankful that you didn't buy a VW!

[Mondaveo]

Today marks the end of my 12 month warranty, so one year on from the repair work, how have things been going?

I'm happy to report that the car has been good as gold since having the new sensor installed, the feel of the DCT is superb and gear shifts are quick and precise. It's not infallible, as witnessed by the two or three times it's tripped things up by being in the wrong gear, but most of the time the feeling is smart and seamless. I can see why Ford rushed into installing these across the range as they really are a great transmission when working properly.

It's done well enough to restore my confidence in the vehicle and satisfy me that I made a good choice in buying it over every other option that was out there (things I'd really questioned for a time there), and allowed me to feel a bit more individual connection with it as we've started to accumulate the family trips away that make memories.

My wife also surprised me a few weeks ago by telling me that she loves the car - she loves the space, comfort as a driver or passenger, and features (the dual-zone climate control has become a real favourite). There's no love lost to Ford as a brand for either of us (and I hope the ACCC action and others take them to the cleaners), but for the Mondeo itself it's earned our fond forgiveness.

I'm starting to entertain notions of modding and personalising the beastie, although time and money will preclude anything too out there there's a few things I'd like to do for ownership in the long term...

[cobrin]

it's always nice to hear someone having a great affection for a model you share but...for some one with your problem it was concerning to read; your follow up has hit new heights in the BRAVO! department. Particularly enjoyed the comments of your missus, it's those comments along with that outlook now moving forward that gets me nodding YES you feel exactly what we do (or vice versa).

Great follow up and good thread regardless of why you're here.

I fully understand the 1yr thing, 2x Sept. was mine for the whole suspension thing, and I love it every day still, more since the tbelt change.

[bundybear75]

Good to hear Mondaveo.

Even with the rocky introduction i had to Mondeo ownership I'd buy another in a heart beat.

With regard to the transmission after sensor replacement, it does have a tendency to learn your way of driving and gets complacent. Doesnt hurt to change it up and surprise it occasionally. Mind you my wife has driven mine for the last few weeks so i will have some bad habits to get rid of.....

I find busy roundabouts the spot that catches it out the most in the wrong gear. A couple of go/stops on the approach and it has no idea what gear you want next

[whitelion65]

Bundy,
you're a braver man than me if you go into a roundabout in anything other than manual control ;-)

[NZ XR6]

Originally Posted by whitelion65

Bundy,
you're a braver man than me if you go into a roundabout in anything other than manual control ;-)

Yes, I still remember taking a Skoda Octavia diesel with the DSG transmission for a test drive a few years ago. It decided 1st was the correct gear to enter a roundabout, and I came so close to hitting the car in front.

[whitelion65]

I've just this last week picked up a 2016 Focus Trend, 6speed manual.
I haven't found it to be in the wrong gear yet ;-)
I reckon the Mondeo would be ten times the car with the manual box, but alas, we must consume what's dished up to us.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by whitelion65

I've just this last week picked up a 2016 Focus Trend, 6speed manual.
I haven't found it to be in the wrong gear yet ;-)

The problem with those fancy boxes is the older you get the sloppier the changes get. :p

[DRU842]

Originally Posted by whitelion65

I reckon the Mondeo would be ten times the car with the manual box, but alas, we must consume what's dished up to us.

It was! Our 2008 XR5 Turbo (6sp manual) was a fantastic family GT car. Several runs to Melbourne, Brisbane and FNQ, with all the family were achieved with speed, safety & comfort.

[griifo002]

This has been a very interesting and informative read (thread)

Our family has 2 Mondeos one diesel MA (mine) and MC petrol eco-thing (daughters)both autos.
Well the daughters has just started playing up and displaying the Transmission Limited warning sign...It did it about a month ago then was ok...Its had a 60000 service at ford since and we told them of the one off issue and to check if there were any problems that they find...Upon picking the car up they said there were no codes and they serviced it as per the book....Now a few weeks later it has played up again plus showing the transmission warning....RACQ called waiting atm.

More to come...Griff.

[Austenite]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

Have been in touch with the transmission specialist and their quote is around 2/3 what I got from the dealer (under $2,500).

When you got it repaired, was it at the specialist? Care to share the name?

I now have the same problem in Brisbane, Ford Springwood just quoted $5,500 (including clutch replacement, car now has 170,000km) and am on the hunt for a price closer to yours.

General mechanic next door said he'd quoted similar for the same model, and thought his trade price from the specialist would be about $4,000.

Will let you know how I go!