Fog Lights, what is the big deal?

[Keepleft]

Amazer wrote "I have them in my 2 cars Factory Fitted Laser Lynx and Late Series Mazda Astina and I hardly use them as I do not find a need unless its raining or foggy or a very dark night on a unlit road".

And that's the point, they are a safety item - great for the intended purpose. The idea, as with warning triangles, rear fogs, fire extinguisher, safety vest, first aid kit, is that you hope you don't have to use them, ever.

I'll post this link again for ACT's advertisement, Fog and auxiliary lights'. It's Pdf and a 1.5MB download. I suggest you right click and choose 'save-as'.

Note for the rear fog in pic, some vehicles have rear fog lights incorporated in the main taillight unit. If so, the rear fog portion will be 100mm away from any brake-light by design compliance. Typically, one on the drivers' side will function.

http://www.transport.act.gov.au/pdfs/foglights.pdf

Every EU motor vehicle sold in AUS market has rear fogs, MB vehicles since 1972 - wagons since 1980. BMW since 1973-4. Some Subaru, Pajero's, Kia, Hyundai, Lexus, Chrysler etc have them, and often front.

Johnydep - You cannot source a bulb lower than 55 watts on a 12 volt system, and there is no need to do so. Most front fogs bear either H1 or H3 bulbs, some use HB4 (CRV's for example).

What drivers can do however is use the so marketed 'ALL WEATHER' bulbs, these give the front fog a softer 'yellow' look, and are E marked/ADR compliant, but may not be available for all bulb types in Australia from Narva/Hella, do try if that is the case from Phillips/Osram for one.

In any case - if your getting unusal glare, it is likely the lamp is not adjusted correctly, or the owner has gone to a too high a wattage.

The SS Commodore front fog lights I highlighted in the earlier thread will 'glare' regardless! The owner of such could at the very least source one of the all weather bulbs (to soften that glare) or change the lamps to the HSV option via spare parts.

Can you tell us where to get those 'Hella triangles' you mention, please Keepleft. I recently came across a vehicle broken down on the side of the road and they had three of those triangles. Do a damn good job.

As for day driving with lights on, yes I use my low beam, all day, every day. I want people to be able to see me. We had fog lights on our car, say, 20+ years ago, but only used them for fog. They don't bother me, but those damn blueish lights that some commy owners have do.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

Amazer wrote "I have them in my 2 cars Factory Fitted Laser Lynx and Late Series Mazda Astina and I hardly use them as I do not find a need unless its raining or foggy or a very dark night on a unlit road".

And that's the point, they are a safety item - great for the intended purpose. The idea, as with warning triangles, rear fogs, fire extinguisher, safety vest, first aid kit, is that you hope you don't have to use them, ever.

I'll post this link again for ACT's advertisement, Fog and auxiliary lights'. It's Pdf and a 1.5MB download. I suggest you right click and choose 'save-as'.

Note for the rear fog in pic, some vehicles have rear fog lights incorporated in the main taillight unit. If so, the rear fog portion will be 100mm away from any brake-light by design compliance. Typically, one on the drivers' side will function.

http://www.transport.act.gov.au/pdfs/foglights.pdf

Every EU motor vehicle sold in AUS market has rear fogs, MB vehicles since 1972 - wagons since 1980. BMW since 1973-4. Some Subaru, Pajero's, Kia, Hyundai, Lexus, Chrysler etc have them, and often front.

Johnydep - You cannot source a bulb lower than 55 watts on a 12 volt system, and there is no need to do so. Most front fogs bear either H1 or H3 bulbs, some use HB4 (CRV's for example).

What drivers can do however is use the so marketed 'ALL WEATHER' bulbs, these give the front fog a softer 'yellow' look, and are E marked/ADR compliant, but may not be available for all bulb types in Australia from Narva/Hella, do try if that is the case from Phillips/Osram for one.

In any case - if your getting unusal glare, it is likely the lamp is not adjusted correctly, or the owner has gone to a too high a wattage.

The SS Commodore front fog lights I highlighted in the earlier thread will 'glare' regardless! The owner of such could at the very least source one of the all weather bulbs (to soften that glare) or change the lamps to the HSV option via spare parts.

good stuff keepleft as I've asked elsewhere where is the basis for this information coming from?

[marcuss]

Fog lights dazzle you at night, I don't care which way they are aimed. They actually appear brighter than headlights. I don't see the need to use them on a clear night, they add a very minimal amount of light for a major dazzle factor for the poor bloke coming the other way. As for people using them during the day, some claim for safety reasons, why not use headlights? Or are they not cool enough? Admit it guys, the only reason they get used is because you think it makes your car look cool when in fact everyone else thinks you are a tosser. BTW, I drive a BA XR8 and in 2 years i've used the fog lights about a dozen times, that is, when its foggy!

[Keepleft]

XGRAN:

I suspect the three you saw at the scene were part of a set of three compliant to Australian Standard 3790, this standard was adopted from the North American market many years ago. All well and good, and yes they are 'okay', but you can do better. . .

When I highlight Hella Part Number 2901 or the BMW unit, its because after thousands of years extensive experience at having used all manner of warning triangles, some to standard, some not, that the European Code triangle is the absolute best performer in night reflectoring, its daytime inner triangle visibility, and WIND STABILITY! - Vital.

You need to rely on the product you set-up and don't need it to blow out of alignment, or over as is often the case with low standard or non conforming units. That is a real danger to life and property - with anything less than the UNECE version.

The European Code unit is also the standard for world adoption via the United Nations process, rightly so. Even very recently, both China and Korea adopted it as their own, whilst not accepting the North American type, which is in turn - our own!

The Hella Part Number 2901 unit is available on order from most Auto Parts Shops and sells at the moment for around $40 - 65. It is nonetheless cheap insurance.
http://db.hella.com.au/cgi-bin/catal...ew&flmaint=151

The BMW unit is available from any BMW dealer via their spare parts department, about $35. BMW in turn are supplied by the folk at Gebra: www.gebra.com

If your on a tight budget, Race & Rally in Sydney 02 9709 4775 (Ask for Aaron in the shop) have a good cheap ECE triangle for around $17+GST. Request the Sth Korean made, to European Code Specification (UNECE Compliant) triangle. It is superior in performance to the Australian Standard 3790 set of three under discussion, though has slightly less wind survivability than both the Hella and BMW units. They also have an LED non-compliant with any standard version, it is to be considered pottage or as an item used to attract desperate men to a brothel in a bad neighbourhood! So, don't buy the LED type...

One could also source the same ECE quality from most European makes, Volvo, MB, Audi, VW etc and so on.

Every UNECE triangle comes in a plastic storage case, the case itself contains placement instruction, as will future editions of your State driver manual which will have proper placement instruction for single units, even a picture of an ECE triangle, because I want readers to 'see' the quality that is available! NSW will be first.

See this basic placement example, now being taught to Tassie driver's, which I expect to 'modernise' a little at a later date, its Pdf, I suggest you right click and 'save as', scroll to page 73:
http://www.transport.tas.gov.au/lice..._v3_part_3.pdf

Every passenger vehicle including 4WD's should carry a single hazard warning triangle, make your choice in these vehicle categories 'Euro', - INSIST on it, accept nothing less.

Caravans, light trucks and the like should carry three. It remains 'mandatory' for heavy vehicles over 12tonnes GVM to carry three in Australia. Up to now, I can find no Australian suppliers who carry a set of three ECE triangles, for that reason alone, and only for such vehicles requiring them, the units complying with AS3790 from both Hella and Narva will suffice.

It is my view the Commonwealth, or a State, should 'mandate', a la Europe, a requirement to carry a warning triangle funded by a one-off reduction in registration cost to help fund such a purchase, in order to be registered. AND that we adopt the UNECE item as our national standard in order to fully replace AS3790, which for now, 'accepts' the Euro type.

Points on placement: On scene, immediately switch off the ignition of crashed vehicles to reduce risk of fire, and immediately activate the hazard warning lights, these are on a fusible circuit. When you set off to place the triangle, open it up and hold it facing approaching traffic to aid in your pedestrian safety, and again when returning it to storage. Keep your eyes on that traffic and stay focussed.

* Place the triangle to the side of the road; sometimes it is necessary for a triangle to be so placed in a lane; if so
* Don't place a triangle 'smack middle' in an affected traffic lane, rather to its side, this has the effect of 'feeding' traffic away from the triangle.

* The measure generally is 50 - 150 metres (steps) away from the scene, use commonsense in that, the 150 metre measure applies to high-speed roads. Additional units can be placed within the measurements.

* Keep a safety vest, first aid kit, even an extinguisher secured in your vehicle. These are UN transport policy items.

The idea is to never have to use the items, and I really hope you never have too, but.

DO NOT folk, purchase $3-00 junk sold by some shops, great danger! Do NOT buy Hella Part Number 2900; http://db.hella.com.au/cgi-bin/catal...ew&flmaint=150 This unit is made to AS3790B, it is to be considered a bad toy for children, and requires nothing less than heavy Uranium to stabilise! It is/was, standard supply in the Holden Statesman and retails, laughingly, for about $56!!!! Not the fault of Hella, but the drunken ignorant fools who created one misty night that 'old' and most irresponsible standard.

NB; I DO NOT work for any of the companies mentioned, gain no monies whatsoever from them, I insert the detail and links for education and on-road betterment.

Red XLR etc - I am a motorist's advocate here in NSW and am primarily concerned with this jurisdiction, I nag (or discuss) with public servants and politicians, locally and overseas alike, on all matters transport, I write driver manual text relating to hazardous weather conditions and scene management for driver manuals around the world, New York State, Australia, NZ, HK etc. My phone bill by the month often runs into the hundreds. Is it worth it? Yes.

[XA Coupsta]

Some very good debate here.

My view is that of some others here - is please dont use foglights when it isnt foggy or otherwise hazardous!!!

Sure there are valid arguments for and against. Personally.........I find they do dazzle my vision (yet you could argue by design they arent supposed to - but hey im not the only one saying they dazzle my eyesight!).

Also there was a great point made about why have them on in city/high density driving??? When more often than not you are in traffic anyway and it is going to illuminate a whole 5 or 10 metres to the car ahead or beside you.

You sure constant usage of fog lights isnt just wanting to draw some more attention to your ride?........

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

XGRAN:

..........., its because after thousands of years extensive experience at having used all manner of warning triangles, some to standard, some not, that the European Code triangle is the absolute best performer............
.

Wow, you must be the oldest member here :hihi:

Originally Posted by Keepleft

XGRAN:

I suspect the three you saw at the scene were part of a set of three compliant to Australian Standard 3790, this standard was adopted from the North American market many years ago. All well and good, and yes they are 'okay', but you can do better. . .

When I highlight Hella Part Number 2901 or the BMW unit, its because after thousands of years extensive experience at having used all manner of warning triangles, some to standard, some not, that the European Code triangle is the absolute best performer in night reflectoring, its daytime inner triangle visibility, and WIND STABILITY! - Vital.

You need to rely on the product you set-up and don't need it to blow out of alignment, or over as is often the case with low standard or non conforming units. That is a real danger to life and property - with anything less than the UNECE version.

The European Code unit is also the standard for world adoption via the United Nations process, rightly so. Even very recently, both China and Korea adopted it as their own, whilst not accepting the North American type, which is in turn - our own!

The Hella Part Number 2901 unit is available on order from most Auto Parts Shops and sells at the moment for around $40 - 65. It is nonetheless cheap insurance.
http://db.hella.com.au/cgi-bin/catal...ew&flmaint=151

The BMW unit is available from any BMW dealer via their spare parts department, about $35. BMW in turn are supplied by the folk at Gebra: www.gebra.com

If your on a tight budget, Race & Rally in Sydney 02 9709 4775 (Ask for Aaron in the shop) have a good cheap ECE triangle for around $17+GST. Request the Sth Korean made, to European Code Specification (UNECE Compliant) triangle. It is superior in performance to the Australian Standard 3790 set of three under discussion, though has slightly less wind survivability than both the Hella and BMW units. They also have an LED non-compliant with any standard version, it is to be considered pottage or as an item used to attract desperate men to a brothel in a bad neighbourhood! So, don't buy the LED type...

One could also source the same ECE quality from most European makes, Volvo, MB, Audi, VW etc and so on.

Every UNECE triangle comes in a plastic storage case, the case itself contains placement instruction, as will future editions of your State driver manual which will have proper placement instruction for single units, even a picture of an ECE triangle, because I want readers to 'see' the quality that is available! NSW will be first.

See this basic placement example, now being taught to Tassie driver's, which I expect to 'modernise' a little at a later date, its Pdf, I suggest you right click and 'save as', scroll to page 73:
http://www.transport.tas.gov.au/lice..._v3_part_3.pdf

Every passenger vehicle including 4WD's should carry a single hazard warning triangle, make your choice in these vehicle categories 'Euro', - INSIST on it, accept nothing less.

Caravans, light trucks and the like should carry three. It remains 'mandatory' for heavy vehicles over 12tonnes GVM to carry three in Australia. Up to now, I can find no Australian suppliers who carry a set of three ECE triangles, for that reason alone, and only for such vehicles requiring them, the units complying with AS3790 from both Hella and Narva will suffice.

It is my view the Commonwealth, or a State, should 'mandate', a la Europe, a requirement to carry a warning triangle funded by a one-off reduction in registration cost to help fund such a purchase, in order to be registered. AND that we adopt the UNECE item as our national standard in order to fully replace AS3790, which for now, 'accepts' the Euro type.

Points on placement: On scene, immediately switch off the ignition of crashed vehicles to reduce risk of fire, and immediately activate the hazard warning lights, these are on a fusible circuit. When you set off to place the triangle, open it up and hold it facing approaching traffic to aid in your pedestrian safety, and again when returning it to storage. Keep your eyes on that traffic and stay focussed.

* Place the triangle to the side of the road; sometimes it is necessary for a triangle to be so placed in a lane; if so
* Don't place a triangle 'smack middle' in an affected traffic lane, rather to its side, this has the effect of 'feeding' traffic away from the triangle.

* The measure generally is 50 - 150 metres (steps) away from the scene, use commonsense in that, the 150 metre measure applies to high-speed roads. Additional units can be placed within the measurements.

* Keep a safety vest, first aid kit, even an extinguisher secured in your vehicle. These are UN transport policy items.

The idea is to never have to use the items, and I really hope you never have too, but.

DO NOT folk, purchase $3-00 junk sold by some shops, great danger! Do NOT buy Hella Part Number 2900; http://db.hella.com.au/cgi-bin/catal...ew&flmaint=150 This unit is made to AS3790B, it is to be considered a bad toy for children, and requires nothing less than heavy Uranium to stabilise! It is/was, standard supply in the Holden Statesman and retails, laughingly, for about $56!!!! Not the fault of Hella, but the drunken ignorant fools who created one misty night that 'old' and most irresponsible standard.

NB; I DO NOT work for any of the companies mentioned, gain no monies whatsoever from them, I insert the detail and links for education and on-road betterment.

Red XLR etc - I am a motorist's advocate here in NSW and am primarily concerned with this jurisdiction, I nag (or discuss) with public servants and politicians, locally and overseas alike, on all matters transport, I write driver manual text relating to hazardous weather conditions and scene management for driver manuals around the world, New York State, Australia, NZ, HK etc. My phone bill by the month often runs into the hundreds. Is it worth it? Yes.

Thanks for the info Keepleft. That is interesting regarding the spacing of where to place the triangles, as the mentioned vehicle I came across, had them within 1 metre of their car, so the could not be seen from a distance. I thought they had pulled over for a mobile call!

The triangles are something I have been considering for a while as I am starting to see a few out here in the country and they are a great idea. I would like to think that they will catch on.

Gambit is in the 'spares' business, so I will get him to chase up the Hella one's you mentioned. May as well get it right the first time! :voldar02:
As for the fire extinguisher, etc, they should be in passenger vehicles anyway, it's common sense.

Lastly, it's is nice to get information from a person for a change that actually has the 'facts' instead of them having 'read' the information somewhere and then knowing all about it. Well done and keep up the good work.

interesting topic, I admit to driving with my factory fitted fog lights on , and headlights on parkers , when visability is low or early morning, Also in the country when the vegitation is a bit thick on the side of the road . In my opinion other road users can see my vehicle a little earlier than without the lights on.
My pet hate is the rear snow light fitted to those Hyundai jiggers, turned on during a clear night, they are brighter than the brake light and distract your attention from the brake light.
And as for the saftey triangles ,i've been a long distance truck driver for years , we use them by law, and they are a lifesaving piece of equipment ..

[2fardown]

I know of at least 5 people personally here in North QLD that have been fined or warned for driving with their fog lights on during the day / night when the conditions were clear. From memory the fine was about $140.

If someone is driving towards me day / night and it's clear and they have their fog lights on, I'll give them a quick flash of my fog lights ON / OFF so they may realise they aren't needed. It is one of my pet hates. You don't see people driving around with their hazard lights on when they aren't in distress... Why should fog lights be any different?

[XD 351 Ute]

If you want to see in fog, use your foglights.
If you want people to be aware of your car in clear conditions
(avoiding the "I didn't see him" problem), turn on your headlights.
That's what they are designed for.

Then you avoid upsetting the other motorists blinded by the unecessary use of fog lights, ADR compliant or not.

Ed

[XA-Coupe]

Some pretty impressive info there Keepleft.
For all the people that want their rice lights on for visibility ... what is wrong with low beam ????? I also got reversed into before whilst driving a bright yellow ( almost citric acid ) 4WD because the dumbarse didn't see me. No matter how hard you try .. you can't compensate for gross stupidity.

Sometimes I see people driving around at night with their head lights off or on parking mode and using the foglights instead.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Why dont car companies put triangles in cars???

I know Holden use to on the Statesman as my mates got a WH II with some triangle setup in the boot.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by ShockWaveXR6na

Why dont car companies put triangles in cars???

I know Holden use to on the Statesman as my mates got a WH II with some triangle setup in the boot.

I mentioned earlier that the triangle supplied with the Statesman was to be considered a toy for children. It is constructed to AS3790B. Frankly, it's an embarrasment of a design, it blows away, is as visible as a large pay rise and is downright terrible to use!

I suggest folk make the effort and insist a ECE Euro unit, accept nothing less.

[Des]

Thanks Keepleft, excellent work! I live in NSW and knew we had new rules coming but didn't realise the full extent. I think a group of people could view the same vehicle and some would be dazzled and some wouldn't. It has to do with posture, seat position, height, vehicle viewed from, as well as eyesight (or lack there-of). So the question of being dazzled is maybe more personal then scientific.
Could you answer another question though? I've noticed a lot of heavy vehicles are changing over to the new "blue-white" (LED?) clearance lights. What's the regulations over these? Some vehicles carry enough to light a small town! Here's an example I found this week on a 45ft tautliner (thanks to Sydney traffic I had the chance to count them): trailer - 9 bottom, 9 top, 6 top rear, 4 bottom rear and I assume the front had 6 top / prime mover - 7 on each fuel tank step (2 steps per side), 4 both above and below the main bar of the bull-bar, 5 above the cab, 4 on each mirror and then 6 down each side (rear facing) of the sleeper.
Is this over-use? By the way, this was on a late model (large and well known) company truck. To my way of thinking, this is distracting.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 2fardown

I know of at least 5 people personally here in North QLD that have been fined or warned for driving with their fog lights on during the day / night when the conditions were clear. From memory the fine was about $140.

If someone is driving towards me day / night and it's clear and they have their fog lights on, I'll give them a quick flash of my fog lights ON / OFF so they may realise they aren't needed. It is one of my pet hates. You don't see people driving around with their hazard lights on when they aren't in distress... Why should fog lights be any different?

As far as I can work out and keepleft seems to agree, it is not illegal in QLD to drive with Fog Lights on in any road conditions, provided they haven't been modified from compliance (eg higher wattage globes). If they have been modified or aimed up from standard then they come under the dazzling lights ruling.

Fog lights are different to hazard lights, end of story! Do you drive with any form of lighting on, what colour is your car?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by XA Coupe

Some pretty impressive info there Keepleft.
For all the people that want their rice lights on for visibility ... what is wrong with low beam ????? I also got reversed into before whilst driving a bright yellow ( almost citric acid ) 4WD because the dumbarse didn't see me. No matter how hard you try .. you can't compensate for gross stupidity.

Agreed yo can't prevent stupidity, I know that more than the average person. I drive a vehicle with a siren and red and blue lights and we still have people not see us, because they don't look. Extra lighting will do nothing for these situations but may help when the person looks but does not see.

The reference to rice lights, proof that people object to change. Again on the road I was observing fog lights on a variety of cars, not one dazzled me in any way (new commodores included), in fact the only ones that did dazzle in any way were a couple of low beams, two were on 4wd's. The study continues.

[Mechan1k]

Very excellent thread here ... I think it should be "Stickied".

I use foglights regularly .. but that's cos I come through a lot of fog in the morning and evening ... I sometimes use in on dark country roads at night ... as they do give a wider beam off the side of the road (wildlife can be dangerous) and can give a slightly earlier warning.

I drive with low-beam on during the day as a courier driver ... i find it a bit safer as people do realise they notice my lights before changing lanes ... I do a lot of driving.

I always drive with low beam on when travelling long distances ... but that's just me.

On my previous car I used my rear foglights (Proton Satria) in inclement weather (rain on freeways and fog as well) ... they were mounted very low and on both sides ... rain spray can really cut down taillight brightness ... hence why I used them).

It's good to see someone come on here with "the facts" and with unbiased information as well. We need more info like this on legalities.

[XA-Coupe]

Dunno about QLD but in Vic, the weather has to be inclement for the 'fog' lights to be on. They aren't decent fog lights anyway because white light reflects too much. If they were anything useful they would have yellow light. In my highly scientific tests in what fog I could find, they made SFA difference ... and what additional light they dod provide was right in front of the car and of no use to me.

[geckoGT]

Distracting is a dangerous statement, although I understand and appreciate what you are saying, it could be suggested that you should be watching what you are doing and not counting lights (ok I take it you were not moving, just making a point) or worrying about someone having lights on that you don't agree with and distracting yourself flicking light switches (fair enough if you are blinded by the incorrect use of lights or the lights are illegal in set up).
An important skill is being able to take notice of your surroundings, absorb the information and not be distracted. I think too many people worry too much about what others are doing and don't pay enough attention to what they are doing. Unfortunately I see that everyday.

[Jamie XR6]

And you think you are having trouble with fog lights

[geckoGT]

Actually illegal, must have 6 alternators to run it all too

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

As far as I can work out and keepleft seems to agree, it is not illegal in QLD to drive with Fog Lights on in any road conditions, provided they haven't been modified from compliance (eg higher wattage globes). If they have been modified or aimed up from standard then they come under the dazzling lights ruling.

I don't know if this has changed; Transport Operations (Road Use Management—Vehicle Standards and Safety)
Regulation 1999

The police can use their judgement on No. 57, 63, & 64 & find against you, if you took it to court you could possibly win.
But No. 67b there is no way out, because your fog lights are 55W.
http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LE...OpRUVSSR99.pdf

Part 7 Lights and reflectors

57 Prevention of glare
A light, other than a high-beam headlight, fitted to a vehicle
must be built and adjusted to provide the necessary amount of
light, without dazzling the driver of another vehicle
approaching, or being approached by, the vehicle.

63 Performance of headlights
(1) When on, a headlight, or additional headlight, fitted to a
motor vehicle must—
(a) show only white light; and
(b) project its main beam of light ahead of the vehicle.
(2) Headlights must be fitted to a motor vehicle so their light does
not reflect off the vehicle into the driver’s eyes.

64 Effective range of headlights
(1) This section applies to a headlight that is on at night.
(2) A low-beam headlight must illuminate the road ahead of the
motor vehicle for at least 25 m.
(3) A high-beam headlight must illuminate the road ahead of the
motor vehicle for at least 50 m.
(4) However, a low-beam headlight fitted to a motor vehicle built
before 1931, or a moped, need only illuminate the road ahead
of the vehicle for 12 m.

67 Daytime running lights
(1) A pair of daytime running lights may be fitted to a motor
vehicle.

(4) When on, a daytime running light must—
(a) show a white or yellow light visible from the front of the
vehicle; and
(b) not use over 25 W.

(5) Daytime running lights must be wired so they are off when a
headlight, other than a headlight being used as a flashing
signal, is on.

[geckoGT]

Accepted that if picked up you may have to prove that the performance of the fog light is not dazzling in a court, whick as long as they have been tampered with, is likely. I would say from the facty that I often have mine on and I have never been flashed by another road user, I would say mine are ok.

67b, not relevant because they way the lights are set up they are not daytime running lights by definition so therefore the ruling does not apply. If I had to defend this, my defence would be that they are listed in the factory owners manual as fog lamps, not daytime running lights and therefore although aware of the legislation, I believed it did not apply. I present exhibit A, Ford Falcon Owners Manual.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

Accepted that if picked up you may have to prove that the performance of the fog light is not dazzling in a court, whick as long as they have been tampered with, is likely. I would say from the facty that I often have mine on and I have never been flashed by another road user, I would say mine are ok.

67b, not relevant because they way the lights are set up they are not daytime running lights by definition so therefore the ruling does not apply. If I had to defend this, my defence would be that they are listed in the factory owners manual as fog lamps, not daytime running lights and therefore although aware of the legislation, I believed it did not apply. I present exhibit A, Ford Falcon Owners Manual.

But there is an illegality of using fog lights on a clear day, and the law can be used against you, your only chance would be to go to court.

If you use the argument that you were not using daytime running lights because they are fog lights, firstly;
1) what is the deffinition of daylight driving lights?
2) the judge could site you for 57, 63 & 64 unless you have scientific proof.

[Jamie XR6]

I agree,

By definition, they aren't fog lights but day time running lights. Though the Ford lights don't turn off when you turn on your headlights. Fog lights use a yellow lens to stop glare during fog. Day time running lights are there to aid in day time visibility.

What it really comes down to, is it's up to the Police Officer's judgement (however right or wrong that is). If you get pulled over and fined it's probably cheaper to pay the fine (NSW it's $78 last time I looked) then to take it to court and argue your case.

[XA Coupsta]

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

I would say from the facty that I often have mine on and I have never been flashed by another road user, I would say mine are ok.

Disagree.

Just because you havent been flashed back doesnt mean they are ok, and I dont see how because you havent been flashed you are using this as acceptance to keep them on.

If I've been dazzled by your usage of fog lights, im going to be doing my best to not let it affect my driving - and not thinking about (or able to) flash my lights at you to let you know about it.

Gecko your ride looks tough enough (and im sure sounds it) to not need to use foggy's. Im still of the opinion people who use fog lights in conditions that dont require it - are chasing some looks for their ride.

[geckoGT]

Ok will state it again, in QLD the only mention of fog lights is the rear ones. Any other infringement would have to come under the law regarding using headlight that causes dazzling of another vehicle.

Yes I would have to prove it in a court of law that the lights were not sufficient to dazzle another driver. This may difficult, but could be worth doing.

No fog lights do not have to be yellow, ADR's state they can be white or yellow. ADR's also state that they must be independant to the low beam (hooked up to park lights is ok) and must be able to be turned off independently of all other lights. The falcon ones do this.

As for wanting people to take notice, yes my car looks great (get told that nearly every time I fill the thirsty beast up) and it sounds good too. Having said that I don't give a rats bum what people think of the look of it when I am driving, as long as they know I am there. Yes I could drive past with no lights on and still have pedestrians take a second look (very flattering) but that does not mean that the guy pulling out of the side street at a speed that is too high without giving more than a glance up the road will see it. With lights on, there is more of a chance that he will see me and act appropriately, I like more of a chance.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by geckoxr8

Ok will state it again, in QLD the only mention of fog lights is the rear ones. Any other infringement would have to come under the law regarding using headlight that causes dazzling of another vehicle.
...........

No. 89 mentions front fog lights, the police can get you on this one as well.

http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LE...VSSR99_02A.pdf

Transport Operations (Road
Use Management—Vehicle
Standards and Safety)
Regulation 1999

89 Front fog lights
(1) A pair of front fog lights may be fitted to a motor vehicle with 4 or
more wheels.
(2) A pair of front fog lights, or a single front fog light, may be fitted to a
motorbike or motortrike.
(3) A pair of front fog lights fitted to a motor vehicle with 4 or more
wheels must have the centre of each light not over 400 mm from the nearer
side of the vehicle unless the centres of the lights are at least 600 mm apart.
(4) If the top of the front fog light is higher than the top of any low-beam
headlight on the vehicle, the centre of the fog light must not be higher than
the centre of the low-beam headlight.
(5) A front fog light must—
(a) when on—
(i) project white or yellow light in front of the vehicle; and
(ii) be a low-beam light; and
(b) be able to be operated independently of any headlight; and
(c) be fitted so the light from it does not reflect off the vehicle into
the driver’s eyes.

Why don't you use the drive lights low beam, all vehicles are visible with these on & they have been designed not to effect oncoming drivers.