Should road cars be speed limited?

[bungarra]

[QUOTE=Mad_Aussie]http://www.roadsense.com.au/facts.htmlQUOTE]

Have requested per capita data from the WA Office of Road Safety of vehicles on roads vs number of speed related deaths for 1970-1979 and the corresponding data for 2000-2009. I was told by one of the staffers that it was to hard to reconcile the data and do a comparison as all studies would have to take in changes to vehicle standards, laws etc.

When I pressed further, I was told that the figures based on per capita, showed less people killed from accidents involving speed in the 1970's.

I can understand agencies like the ORS wanting higher fines and lower speed limits when most of their income is derived by them.

[WannabeXP]

Its clear that practicality gets in the way of solving the speeding issue,
No doubt that when it does happen im going to be very frustrated!
Obviously its not safe to have the speeders car limited to 40 km/h if there are other cars doing 100km/h.
I'm not sure where everyone is from but here in country victoria its lucky to have a lane going each way let alone an overtaking lane. Just pointing out that varying speed limits for different circumstances is not going to solve any issues at all, more create a bigger hazzard,
Cheers Jason

[Elks]

Originally Posted by flappist

No, the minute you do one the wowsers will do it everywhere to everyone and the road tax collectors will rub their hands with glee.

Does anyone remember "Speed cameras will only be deployed in known black spots and will be highly visually signed"?


Sort of like "By 1990 no child will be living in poverty" really..........

Your on the right track there Flappist.

A ridiculous concept that is probably inevitable as how can you argue a need for a 260kph car? but the wowsers that run this state would link your GPS to a PC that issues speeding fines if they could.

This door needs to stay firmly shut.

[GYRKIN GT]

Originally Posted by flappist

Only problem with this is......

What is the penalty for killing the police chasing you?
5 years in slot may as well be 15 years and if you kill the police you may get away........

In USA the penalty for rape was made the same as murder (execution).
All that happened was a huge increase in rape/murders as opposed to rape where the victim survived.
The rape penalty was lowered and the number of rape survivors increased.
But the total number of rapes (inc murders) did not vary all that much.

You have to be careful as not everyone has the same regard for human life or society and if you have nothing to lose you have nothing to care about.

P.S. can you tell me where your GT is so I can "borrow" it and have it crushed just for a bit of fun......does it still not matter who owns it.....

Flappist, I hear you.

Therein lies the problem. There is no easy solution. Everyone will have a different reality as far as a solution is concerned. So, how the hell are the legislators suppose to deal with it?

PS, you wouldn't really drive my GT on a public road in the State of New South Wales at those speeds, would you?

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by GYRKIN GT

Speed limiters on cars/bikes? No way! Never, ever!

However, in saying that, I imagine anyone with even half an interest in performance vehicles would suffer palpitations each time he/she reads about some lunatic exceeding the speed limit by ridiculous amounts.

The scary part for the responsible performance vehicle enthusiast is the unfortunate link, in the majority of cases, of ridiculous speed and vehicle type. That is, huge speed and performance vehicle normally go hand in hand.

The reality is the figure of 222km/h in a 100 zone is quite irrelevant. Why? Because 170 km/h in a 100 zone would be equally as dangerous! Once a vehicle is travelling at those speeds it becomes academic. Therefore, something like a Toyota Yaris, capable of doing 170km/h, is equally a weapon. But, typically, you don't find morons in mum's Yaris doing 170km/h in a 100 zone. It always comes back to the type of car and that's the problem.

How do you stop the problem? No easy answer is there. I believe the absolute majority of performance car people behave (most of the time) very responsibly. For those morons out there who can't behave themselves then-
(1) Go to gaol and not for a Hilton etc sentence, For speeds like we've been talking about, I mean gaol for 12 months minimum;
(2) Car is forfeited, no matter who owns it, and it's crushed;
(3) For those huge speeds, sorry, never allowed to drive again;
(4) Caught driving again, even without involving speed, 5 years picking up soap again and the car is crushed (no matter who owns it)

I suppose where I'm coming from is that I become slightly irritated when I hear about some moron doing 222km/h is his WRX and, because of that moron, some Prius lover will very likely suggest putting a speed limiter on MY GT!! Stuff the moron.

Here's an anecdotal story ( the type that I detest so much but will use as I have not the patience nor calmness of temperment to quantify by taking a proper survey).
I have had a 5 way,traffic lighted intersection built right outside my front door (spare you the details and angst around that), but where there was once a sedate tree lined roundabout ,there are now five christmas trees,funnelling up to 10 lanes of traffic into 5 everytime the lights turn green.
I can tell everyone here with no fear of retribution that there are no morons driving mums Prius that see this chage of light as an invitation to post a PB before 2 lanes merge into 1 100m up the road. I can also safely say it's not some old pants ****in' geriatric either. You know who it inevitably is?? surprise surprise ..it's the "performance car enthusiast". You name it, any pedigree of gt (or otherwise) falcon, fpv's, hsv's, wrexies, gtr's, brand affiliation is not an issue. Everytime I hear the burn out and screaming of tortured engines racing away from the lights, my mind drifts to implants,(or as a close substitute,electric collars), the type that you would put on a testosterone fuelled ,aggresive dog! Everytime the hormones take over, push the button!! I take my dog(a highly charged,intact, staffordshire) to the park(read track) to let him unwind. If he carried on in public(read public roads) like he does there, I would have to freakin shoot him!!!
I have a V8, have driven them before as well, heck, I even owned an XT GT, but lets ask the question,"why is it that so many "performance car enthusiasts" are the ones we keep reading about in these and similar threads??

[data_mine]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

Here's an anecdotal story ( the type that I detest so much but will use as I have not the patience nor calmness of temperment to quantify by taking a proper survey).
I have had a 5 way,traffic lighted intersection built right outside my front door (spare you the details and angst around that), but where there was once a sedate tree lined roundabout ,there are now five christmas trees,funnelling up to 10 lanes of traffic into 5 everytime the lights turn green.
I can tell everyone here with no fear of retribution that there are no morons driving mums Prius that see this chage of light as an invitation to post a PB before 2 lanes merge into 1 100m up the road. I can also safely say it's not some old pants ****in' geriatric either. You know who it inevitably is?? surprise surprise ..it's the "performance car enthusiast". You name it, any pedigree of gt (or otherwise) falcon, fpv's, hsv's, wrexies, gtr's, brand affiliation is not an issue. Everytime I hear the burn out and screaming of tortured engines racing away from the lights, my mind drifts to implants,(or as a close substitute,electric collars), the type that you would put on a testosterone fuelled ,aggresive dog! Everytime the hormones take over, push the button!! I take my dog(a highly charged,intact, staffordshire) to the park(read track) to let him unwind. If he carried on in public(read public roads) like he does there, I would have to freakin shoot him!!!
I have a V8, have driven them before as well, heck, I even owned an XT GT, but lets ask the question,"why is it that so many "performance car enthusiasts" are the ones we keep reading about in these and similar threads??

I have to disagree with you there (should've taken that statistically relevant survey :P)

The problem isn't the enthusiasts, it's the idiots that think having a performance car pulls the chicks, or inflates their pant region.

And those people come in all varieties (age, sex, race, etc.) and cars. My GT-P is currently off the road, so instead of being lined up by HSVs, and any ******* VL, my rental Getz is getting lined up by any tard in a 4 banger econobox.

[EB#]

Originally Posted by prydey

i'm a big NO for having a speed limiter that i can't control, BUT, i wouldn't mind a system that you can set yourself....

I agree with prydey.....
What about a dial on the dash with a limiter for 40,60,80 options or something ?
I reckon it would be pretty handy, particularly for the school zones and such.

[data_mine]

Originally Posted by EB92

I agree with prydey.....
What about a dial on the dash with a limiter for 40,60,80 options or something ?
I reckon it would be pretty handy, particularly for the school zones and such.

Here's a hint for the noobies, there is a 'dial' used to control your speed.

It's a little hard to reach because it's under your right foot.

[WannabeXP]

Originally Posted by EB92

I agree with prydey.....
What about a dial on the dash with a limiter for 40,60,80 options or something ?
I reckon it would be pretty handy, particularly for the school zones and such.

Who would actually use them?
Just like those stupid speed alert things. My car has one, but its most definitely turned off!!!
Harder punishment!!! theres always a way to get around technology.
The world has lost respect for authority!
Cheers Jason

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by data_mine

I have to disagree with you there (should've taken that statistically relevant survey :P)
The problem isn't the enthusiasts, it's the idiots that think having a performance car pulls the chicks, or inflates their pant region.

Problem is, and I'm probably over generalising, I find myself more and more asking "what's the difference"??
(still in the context of my original post)

[ubute]

They already have a speed limiter thing in Mercs, set it at the speed and it won't go over that.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

Originally Posted by Mad_Aussie

When the zombies eventually come, you won't want your car to be limited.

I agree, the zombie hordes will be my primary concern also, I shall campain with the slogan "Zombies hordes will spread afar, if you speed limit my car!"

[Gabbs]

Speed limiting cars is going to do anything as people will just find a way around it. It's not the cars that are the problem its the moron behind the wheel.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Gabbs

Speed limiting cars is going to do anything as people will just find a way around it. It's not the cars that are the problem its the moron behind the wheel.

I could not agree more, the vast majority of performance car owners do not put themselves in this sort of situation but some of them do take their car out for a flogging at a track occasionally. The remainder probably never use their car to its capabilities but they still enjoy it. Why punish the responsible ones?

I am all for the limitation of repeat offenders, e.g no turbo's, no more than 4 cylinders, no performance class cars etc. I would suggest any person that has 2 or more charges of reckless driving, speeding greater than 45 km/h over etc gets a 5 year restriction and their car is confiscated. Perhaps by the time they are off the restriction they will be mature enough to own a high performance car.

We could also bring in a system that instead of destroying confiscated cars, they are auctioned off and the proceeds are put into subsidising the cost of track days and skid pan days so people that want to drive like that and see what their car can do, can do so legally at a reasonable cost. That way the law breakers are funding a scheme to prevent more law breakers. Probably got some flaws but an idea anyway.

[AussieAV]

Some great posts, ideas and points of view, but still looking for answers to my original question.

What are the good reasons for making cars capable of doing more than say 160 km/h ??????

This figure is just a hypothetical number plucked out of nowhere (except that its a nice round 100 miles/h), but I would really like some extra comebacks next time I hear someone say performance cars should be banned/limited or whatever.

I agree 100% with the whole its the driver not the car view point, but that is not really a reason for having fast cars in the first place, and that is what I'm after.

I've got the track day arguement, I like the Zombie one, but we're an inventive lot, there must be some other good ones.

I also just thought of two more.
1) The fact that a car designed to be able to cope with faster speeds will inherently be safer and nicer to drive at normal speed limits, and
2) Sometimes power can actually get you out of a potential crash situation.

[geckoGT]

What are the good reasons for making cars capable of doing more than say 160 km/h ??????

This figure is just a hypothetical number plucked out of nowhere (except that its a nice round 100 miles/h), but I would really like some extra comebacks next time I hear someone say performance cars should be banned/limited or whatever.

I agree 100% with the whole its the driver not the car view point, but that is not really a reason for having fast cars in the first place, and that is what I'm after.

Because we want them, what more reason do we need? The track day argument is a valid one, many of us do go and that is one of the reasons we pay more for our cars.

There are many areas of excess in life that when you look at it are not really needed, fine food, big boats, gazillion inch TV's, massive houses etc. When you look right into the list some of your possible answers could be dangerous in the wrong hands, but will we ban or limit them all at the detriment to the majority (the responsible users) because of the minority (irresponsible users)? God I hope not.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

My view on it is this.... there is no NEED to go faster than the posted speed limit, however, for those who wish to do track work or other legal things with their car, why should they have these limits opposed on them?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by AussieAV

Some great posts, ideas and points of view, but still looking for answers to my original question.

What are the good reasons for making cars capable of doing more than say 160 km/h ??????

This figure is just a hypothetical number plucked out of nowhere (except that its a nice round 100 miles/h), but I would really like some extra comebacks next time I hear someone say performance cars should be banned/limited or whatever.

I agree 100% with the whole its the driver not the car view point, but that is not really a reason for having fast cars in the first place, and that is what I'm after.

I've got the track day arguement, I like the Zombie one, but we're an inventive lot, there must be some other good ones.

I also just thought of two more.
1) The fact that a car designed to be able to cope with faster speeds will inherently be safer and nicer to drive at normal speed limits, and
2) Sometimes power can actually get you out of a potential crash situation.

Reasons why car should be capable of doing more than 160km/h.....

The reason put forward as to why road cars should not be able to do this is an artificial agenda promoted by the current crop of social engineers who are (temporarily) running the show.

Change is the only constant and it has been shown all around the world that speed limits have gone up and down, been applied and removed completely and enforced due to what ever whim some "super hero" decides is what we all should do.

Even here in Australia open highway limits range from 90 through 100, 110 to 130.

There WILL be a time in the future when the open road speed limits (even in the popular peoples socialist republic of Kaktoria) will be increased possibly to well over 160km/h.

People's attitudes change.

In 1989 it was perfectly legal in Tasmania to hunt native animals in forestry with a machinegun while drunk as a skunk but if you wished to have a relationship with someone of your own gender you faced going to jail for a long time.

Now just 20 odd years later the exact opposite is true and if you had tried to convince most Tasmanians at the time they would have told you there was as much chance of that happening as the speed limit in Victoria or NSW (or wherever) being raised to 160km/h.....

NEVER assume what the future will bring...........

[Mad_Aussie]

When you're driving on a country road, and you roll over some gumnuts and the rear kicks out, you want to have the ability to feed it power to pull the back end in.
If you're in an oversteer situation, and you rev the car and your power suddenly cuts out, you're stuffed.

[castellan]

I am sure there are people out there that are more dangerous sitting on the speed limit than someone "who could be" competent and could be doing 222km/h.
It is usually the incompetent fool that carries on about some one going faster the him self. and is always siting on 80km/h in the 110km/h and carrying on at 80 through the 60 totally oblivious and is such an ignoramus his tyres are rubbish car is unroadworthy.
Do some of you know that someone could sit on 200km/h and out brake some twit doing 100km/h. and it's a fact!
I have been a passenger with someone driving at what some would say he was drunk but i have way more faith in his ability than many others when they are driving sober and that is a fact.
And i am not supporting f wits driving fast at all.
Hell i know of a highway patrol officer who has done high speeds every day for 20 years and never crashed.
But we get these little Hitlers running around with all this sky is falling nonsense.

[AussieAV]

Hope you are right flappist, it is ridiculous to think that we still have the same speed limits as 40+ years ago with all the advances in vehicle technology.

Just thought of another one. Responsible drivers, capable of safely controlling their cars at race speeds on track days will probably have much better situational awareness and car control skills than the average Joe/Joanne who's never experienced anything over 110 km/h.

[T3man]

Originally Posted by AussieAV

Some great posts, ideas and points of view, but still looking for answers to my original question.

What are the good reasons for making cars capable of doing more than say 160 km/h ??????

Actually ... very few. Maybe even none. If we are talking soley about road usage.

I drive vehicles every day for a living that are speed limited. It is a real pain in the *** because there is no margin to overtake, nor to accelerate past that speed in an emergency situation - braking isn't always the best option.

However I would be happy enough if the speed limiter were just 10km/h above the maximum road limit. That's for a heavy vehicle - I would suggest that 20km/h over the posted limit would be adequate for a normal car.

So given that the maximum speed (every where except NT) is 110 then we would have cars limited to 130. Realistically and honestly answer this ... "how many times have you ever HAD to go over 130 to conduct your business of getting from A to B?" I've admit I've done it many times ... but I didn't HAVE to.

Speed limiting a vehicle in no ways detracts from it's ability to accellerate - power is not limited per se. So you can still have all the power you want for towing, traffic light GPs etc etc.

There is no reason the limiters could not be turned off when the vehicle was not being used on a public road.

Whether speed limiting vehicles on public roads will reduce the road toll is another debate - I'm a firm believer that no matter what rules you put in place to make it harder for people to be idiots, there are the professional morons out there who will still defy all your best attempts and they will find other ways of killing themselves. The fact is that the more you try to take away a person's own responsibility for looking out for himself the more he relies on the "rules" to save him rather than think for himself. It all started with self-cancelling indicators!

[pottery beige]

4.11 gears my old bomb is speed limited....

[Ducati888]

There's no point in putting in speed limiters. Electronic gadgetry can always be played with.

I reckon just put in speedos that don't read over 140kph. Once over that the needle just stops even though you might only be changing in to second gear. If you are truly interested in speed, you'd be more interested in lap times than kph.

On the open road, if you are chasing anything over 140 (even overtaking shouldn't get you up to here), then you're a tool anyway.

Only problem with my plan is Sat Nav gives you your speed anyway, but while you are squinting at it to see whether you've gone over the two tonne, you might plow yourself in to a tree, which wouldn't be a great loss to society if that's what you are regularly doing for kicks.

[SuspectEB]

well a reason agenst speed limiting. Im a tow truck driver, and I tend to tow alot of Mercs, Beemers, audis and volvos.

the main reason they are towed so much, To many driver Aids/limiters. always stuffing up and prevent the car from being reliable.

Think about it, Cars dont need airbags, Stability Control, Traction control, active suspention, Clutchless Manuals and what ever other crap they jam into them.

Its all people that that want a rush. Ill be the first to admit, My EB has seen excecive speeds in its life with me, but I have calmed down. It was dangourous and stupid, but at the time, I was to angry to care.

You will never stop people doing dumb stiff, just gotta deal with it as part of having a animal in control of a Machine.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by AussieAV

Hope you are right flappist, it is ridiculous to think that we still have the same speed limits as 40+ years ago with all the advances in vehicle technology.

I'd say speed limits are lower now then they were 40 years ago.

.......

Anyway the current speeds that car are limited are perfectly fine IMO.

[XlR8TED]

Originally Posted by castellan

I have been a passenger with someone driving at what some would say he was drunk but i have way more faith in his ability than many others when they are driving sober and that is a fact.

Saying something is a fact, doesn't make it so you twit. If you're ok with jumping in a car with a drunk driver, that's your issue. He could be Mark Webber & I wouldn't get in. Booze effects your reaction times and motor skills. THAT is a fact.

There's good arguments for and against a speed limiter. Personally I'd go with not having one. No one NEEDS to exceed more than 130ish, but I disagree with government control creeping in to every part of our lives. The truth is people exceeding limits by those sorts of speeds aren't very common & isn't going to do much to help with road toll.

We have much better cars today than we had 40 years ago, but do we have any sort of better driver training to justify increasing the limits? I'd like to see a licence class system, where further driver training grants you access to higher powered vehicles. Want to own a 300rwkw vehicle? You should probably be learning how to control it if you stamp the loud pedal too hard. Only want to drive to and from the shops? That's fine too, but you're limited to a shopping cart. Perhaps a punishment could then be that if you're caught being an idiot in a high performance vehicle, you lose the right to drive a vehicle in that class for x months, and are required to re-do the training? It would mean only real enthusiasts would bother getting trained up.

Just thinking out loud.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by XRSex

Saying something is a fact, doesn't make it so you twit. If you're ok with jumping in a car with a drunk driver, that's your issue. He could be Mark Webber & I wouldn't get in. Booze effects your reaction times and motor skills. THAT is a fact.

There's good arguments for and against a speed limiter. Personally I'd go with not having one. No one NEEDS to exceed more than 130ish, but I disagree with government control creeping in to every part of our lives. The truth is people exceeding limits by those sorts of speeds aren't very common & isn't going to do much to help with road toll.

We have much better cars today than we had 40 years ago, but do we have any sort of better driver training to justify increasing the limits? I'd like to see a licence class system, where further driver training grants you access to higher powered vehicles. Want to own a 300rwkw vehicle? You should probably be learning how to control it if you stamp the loud pedal too hard. Only want to drive to and from the shops? That's fine too, but you're limited to a shopping cart. Perhaps a punishment could then be that if you're caught being an idiot in a high performance vehicle, you lose the right to drive a vehicle in that class for x months, and are required to re-do the training? It would mean only real enthusiasts would bother getting trained up.

Just thinking out loud.

Some great ideas there, quite in line and perhaps an expansion on what I said earlier.

I tried to give you some rep points for it but I gave some not long ago so I can't, this post was worth some more though.

As for the alcohol intoxicated driver bit, agreed, the author of that post needs to open their mind a bit, read up on the effects of alcohol and reconsider. Alain Prost would be a unsafe driver on the road with reaction times that are slowed by 4 times from the normal at moderate alcohol intoxication levels. It is nothing to do with skill.

[steve.zissou]

Firstly - Doing 160 or 200 or 250 kmph isnt evil - is it more dangerous than 60kmph, but 60 kmph is more dangerous than 30kmph and so on.
In germany, if its safe to do so (light trafic good weather), you can drive at 400kmph if you want on many freeways. (I have done 250kmph for over 3 hours straight over there).
Germany has a death rate of 8 people per 100,000 cars - Australia Has a death rate of 10 people per 100,000 cars. So using Australian state government logic, it must be safer to have unlimited speed limits. But there are obviously more factors involved.

So we can go two ways:
1) the current australian way. Regulate and reduce speed limits. So one day we will have a GPS that will fine us every time we speed and all cars will be speed limited. We will have a video camera on every cm of road and you will get fined for doing anything wrong (cliped that solid line = $100 bucks). Then the govt will reduce speed limits to stupid levels - 60kmph on the M4 because if it saves just one life we have to do it (it will happen)- you can easily die in a 60kmph accident though. After all this we might get down to Death rates of germany but Aussie drivers will have the ability of a muppet (litterally).
2) we could learn from the germans and teach and educate our drivers some skills and responsibility, and we could travel even faster than we are now and still reduce the death rates to the same level.

Given your going to get the same result, which path should we take?

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by jrckelley

Firstly - Doing 160 or 200 or 250 kmph isnt evil - is it more dangerous than 60kmph, but 60 kmph is more dangerous than 30kmph and so on.
In germany, if its safe to do so (light trafic good weather), you can drive at 400kmph if you want on many freeways. (I have done 250kmph for over 3 hours straight over there).
Germany has a death rate of 8 people per 100,000 cars - Australia Has a death rate of 10 people per 100,000 cars. So using Australian state government logic, it must be safer to have unlimited speed limits. But there are obviously more factors involved.

So we can go two ways:
1) the current australian way. Regulate and reduce speed limits. So one day we will have a GPS that will fine us every time we speed and all cars will be speed limited. We will have a video camera on every cm of road and you will get fined for doing anything wrong (cliped that solid line = $100 bucks). Then the govt will reduce speed limits to stupid levels - 60kmph on the M4 because if it saves just one life we have to do it (it will happen)- you can easily die in a 60kmph accident though. After all this we might get down to Death rates of germany but Aussie drivers will have the ability of a muppet (litterally).
2) we could learn from the germans and teach and educate our drivers some skills and responsibility, and we could travel even faster than we are now and still reduce the death rates to the same level.

Given your going to get the same result, which path should we take?

Great post, option 2 thanks.