Top secret! The quality survey every car buyer must see

[Danny]

Originally Posted by sleekism

The one area I believe the Falcon leads all others is a bulletproof motor based on the principle of understressed componets.

I have heard some scary stories about crap quality Falcons but I havent experienced any of it.
My AU Fairmont Ghia is 8 years old and the only problems I have had with it is a seatbelt that wouldnt retract and was promptly repaired under warranty.

Hmmm. Bulletproof once they've been rebuilt 3 or four times do to each part needing to be replaced!

Like I've stated before, We've had a few falcons. They all had their problems. Worst of all the EF and the BA.

You sound like one of the lucky ones, there is a problem, lets hope it can be rectified with the advent of Orion.

[Jayden]

It will so funny when in 10 years time all the Aussie blokes roll up to the drag strip, on one side the toyota supporters and on the other the hyundai enthusiasts. Locked in a never ending fight for dominance.


Bwahahahaaha. ... yeah right. Im coming with you Ford! :P jusk kidding. lol

[sleekism]

I think if Toyota and Hyundai bury GM, Ford and Chrysler we can kiss drag strips goodbye.

The only reason Toyota is involved in NASCAR etc. is to bury the big three and once it has they can concentrate on building mass produced boring cars.

[Bossxr8]

Which car could you rely on still going strong after 10 years and 200,000kms being pounded over the worst roads in Australia. It sure as hell wouldn't be anything Korean. Toughness and quality can sometimes be 2 different things, and Falcons and to a lesser extent Commodores are built strong. Do you ever see bushies driving the tracks in Hyundais.

[sleekism]

Totally agree,

I have an XE at home thats clicked over to 800,000 kilometres and is still going strong.

Sure it may be firing on five cylinders and the exaust has fallen off but it still starts first go everytime and everything still works and its bluddy bush basher.

Plus it sound awesome with 5 cylinders and straight through exaust.

Just dont try and drift an XE with no power steering.....................

[andrewts]

I don't care if Hyundais are better than Fords, I still like Fords better. When Toyota makes a fully Australian Designed and built 4.0L Inline 6 and V8 model, I'll still like Fords better.

[77XCUTE]

Bought a Getz last year just to lug my tools about, chose it purely for low cost, cheap to run, but I got to tell you it's a hell of a lot better than I expected, I can´t think of anything I can say against it. One of the spare parts dealers here had an Excell for a run about, and they got in excess of 500,000km before things started to go wrong with it.

[buddyforu]

Hi guys

I don't post much, but I do read these forums every second day as I like reading your thoughts! BUT I decided to post after reading some of your thoughts in this thread...

I work for the state govt here in QLD, and we have a VZ Commodore and 2 BA Falcons (1 is a ute). The BA Falcon sedan has been a shocker since day one, with numerous trim faults such as, the passenger side airbag moves around in the dash, the rear vents fall out all the time, the drivers seat has aged rapidly as the foam is collapsing, the front power windows have jammed, mould has grown in some of the door seals, the electrics, mainly affecting the dash, have played up occassionally etc etc etc as well as numerous mechanical issues as well. Before we got the Falcon, I was quite impressed with what it offered in comparison with the VZ, but now I wouldn't want to touch one with a 10 foot pole. The VZ has had its dramas as well. On the day we picked it up, the A/C wasn't working, the exhaust was rattling and there was a noticable 'clunk' when going into drive. Nealy 2 years later, we have had ALL the door strips replaced (some twice), a power steering hose replaced and the exhaust rubber grommet thingy replaced atleast 3 times. Oh and the A/C STILL plays up occasionally, it seems that Holden just gave up. I have to say though, the engine has run faultlessly. The BA ute has had niggly problems with the trim as well and has had to be towed back to Ford...twice.
Meanwhile, our Mazda3...well...nothing has gone wrong. No trim faults, no mechanical faults, nothing. Zip. Its nearly 2 years old as well.

Australian made cars from Ford and GM have ALWAYS been poorly built vehicles. Period. To have a Falcon or Commodore run perfectly from day dot is an exception rather than the rule. Has things changed with the VE despite Denny Mooney's rhetoric about the VE being 'world class' (how many times have we heard this everytime a new Commodore is launched..)? I think not, from what I have heard from friends and others I know that own a VE. Which is sad really. Australians expect (and deserve) the country's top selling car to equal their admiration for it, in reliability and quality. The same goes for the Falcon as well.

Don't let your pride in Ford, and particularly the Falcon, blind you from being objective. Its a damn good vehicle in concept, but Ford seem to have difficulty it making that concept a reliable and well built reality. I really hope the Orion is better!

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by buddyforu

Don't let your pride in Ford, and particularly the Falcon, blind you from being objective. Its a damn good vehicle in concept, but Ford seem to have difficulty it making that concept a reliable and well built reality. I really hope the Orion is better!

Amongst other things, the Australian Taxi Industry proves the durability of the Falcon. Its the car of choice for a reason, and that reasn isn't because it doesn't last very long!

[buddyforu]

Its the car of choice because it can comfortably seat 5 people, and has a huge boot. Also its fleet pricing is EXTREMELY competitive. Thats it. Don't think for a second that if Toyota, Mitsubishi, Mazda etc etc had a large, rear drive vehicle on sale that the Falcon would even stand a remote chance against them. It wouldn't.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Amongst other things, the Australian Taxi Industry proves the durability of the Falcon. Its the car of choice for a reason, and that reasn isn't because it doesn't last very long!

Its the car of choice because it has a big boot, poor resale (for those cabbies buying an ex-govt XT rather than a brand new one), fairly well adaptable engine to LPG and cheap parts. Oh and Ford offered a taxi pack to cabbies.

It's also interesting how the car of choice for taxi's no longer extends to the silver cabs or the HC Hire cars either - which are pretty much all statesmans and caprices these days.

Anyway, self destructive cabs aren't exactly a good ad for ford - every day I see one on the side of the road with it's bonnet up, and we're not talking AU models here, we're also talking BF models. The interior of quite a few also leaves much to be desired.

And then there is the negative stigma around owning a Falcon because of their prevailence in taxi fleets. Ask anyone at my work what they think of the Ford Falcon and invaribly they will answer "Taxi"

[Steffo]

No. Its the car of choice because its Australian made (pre-requisite), the engine easily adapts to LPG (legal requirement, no petrol cabs) and it is the only Australian made car that can do the distance.

1,000,000km in 6 years and 6 months from date of manufacture. On original engine and driveline components.

The 3.8 V6 Commodore's didn't stand a chance, the Camry/Avalon are shockers and so is the Magna.

The reason the Hire Cars and Silver Service are being taken by the Statesman are 1) Soon there won't be a Fairlane anymore and 2) Holden gives massive discounts for them that Ford doesn't. There is no other reason. Also a Hire Car cannot be compared to a taxi as they do not do the same amount of kilometres and are not required to run on LPG. They're not on the road 24/7 either.

You can live with the delusion that if Toyota or someone offered a large rear drive sedan they'd take over, but the reality is they wouldn't. There was a large Toyota V6 sedan on offer for them, the Avalon, and the taxi horror stories I've both seen and heard about those quickly dispell Toyota's mythical reliability. Falcon interiors may fade away into nothing and the body may not look crash hot after a few years, but they don't die very easily.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by Steffo

No. Its the car of choice because its Australian made (pre-requisite), the engine easily adapts to LPG (legal requirement, no petrol cabs)

Well that sort of limits the choice to 4 cars. Lets see, Camry and 380 don't have big enough boots to house both luggage and an lpg system easily. This just leaves Falcon and Commodore, Ford of which offers a taxi pack. Yeah have to agree with you there. Funny they don't use Falcons in NZ though.

1,000,000km in 6 years and 6 months from date of manufacture. On original engine and driveline components.

Good to hear but I think it would be a car in a minority, expecially when we have had members on here who have gone through 3 complete different engines before the [/QUOTE]

[buddyforu]

Originally Posted by Steffo

You can live with the delusion that if Toyota or someone offered a large rear drive sedan they'd take over, but the reality is they wouldn't.

Why wouldn't they? What do you base that on? I would think that both Holden and Ford would be in SERIOUS trouble if there was a genuine, Japanese (or Korean) large car alternative out there for the same price.

To make matters worse for the ageing Falcon, it is being consistantly out sold by the Corolla and its looking like the Aurion could outsell it by June as well...


From ninemsn:

'In a year that has already been labelled as a 'tactical' sales year, Gorman says the Blue Oval was caught out in April with little, or late, tactical marketing targeting the locally produced models. To be fair, an aggressive 'value added' campaign for Territory did hit late in the month.

Usually fresh-faced and happy when facing the music with local media, Ford boss Gorman was not pleased with the result and made that clear -- although he retained his remarkably Antipodean (for a New Yorker) sense of humour during this week's briefing.

When quizzed on whether he had considered the fact that Toyota's Aurion might pass the Falcon in the large car sales race if current opposing sales trends continued, he said he hadn't… When it was pointed out that extrapolating the current sales graphs of Falcon and Aurion saw the Toyota in front by June, he quipped: "Well, I guess you won't see me in July if that happens…"

In a more serious tone he told the assembled media: "I don't know whether that [passing Falcon] motivates them [Toyota] or not. That [Aurion selling more than Falcon] wouldn't be a good thing for us -- it would get picked up and you would get a lot of negativity around it.

"What the figures are saying is that Camry's a good car and they happened to drop a six in it and so they're fooling people. They're not offering what we're offering but they're offering great value for money.

"It would not be great but we have to stay focussed on what we're trying to do here which is to build a stable business in the long run in the midst of massive, massive upheaval in the market," Gorman opined.'

[new2ford]

Unfortunately for this simplistic view of the automotive world, 'quality' is only one of the factors that go into choosing a vehicle. Interesting that in this survey, for example, in the medium SUVs Prado and Kluger are at the top of the quality list while the Territory is towards the bottom. However if you turn to the Wheels WASP tests you find that Territory is near the top in primary safety while Prado and Kluger are well and truly at the bottom. Fine panel gaps and immaculate warranty records are not going to make one iota of difference if you come round a bend on a wet road and find an accident that you have to suddenly brake for and avoid. In such a situation good engineering design suddenly becomes terribly important and makes you wish you'd paid more attention to it in the showroom rather than ogling the paintwork.

For those who've been following the Powers and Top Gear surveys for years Drive.com.au's 'sensational' news is very ho hum. Most of the major brands available in Australia are covered in these surveys and Ford and GM's results are on a par with those overseas. The big surprise for Asian/Japanese worshippers will be how the European brand Skoda outpolls all of them again and again. Skoda will be available in Australia later this year and will combine good design with quality, a combination that few Asian manufacturers (except Honda and Mazda) manage to achieve.

[janek]

my au fairy is now almost 7 years old. The only things that have gone are normal wear and tear, ie front rotors, windos sticking (just needed lube). Granted the master window switch was stuffed, but thats mainly due to water :O I tow tonnes, drive her regularly. I cannot fault it! I used to drive an excel for work as a courier, and that was just horrible. no squeaks, but no power, engine surging for no reason, it was plain crap.

Tell me how many asian cars would be able to make it through sand, mud, gravel, grass, snow, ice, hell even crossing a river! And this is putting aside comfort and safety!

i sgree with the aforementioned idea that its relative satisfaction. People do not expect big things from kellogs mail order cars. They do from aussie manufacturers in particular- built to aussie conditions for aussies. The owners are generally more adept, and cluey about what should and is happening with the car, and feel freer to complain about them, as it is locally based and has more of a chance of being heard.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

Well that sort of limits the choice to 4 cars. Lets see, Camry and 380 don't have big enough boots to house both luggage and an lpg system easily. This just leaves Falcon and Commodore, Ford of which offers a taxi pack. Yeah have to agree with you there. Funny they don't use Falcons in NZ though.

Good to hear but I think it would be a car in a minority, expecially when we have had members on here who have gone through 3 complete different engines before the

[/QUOTE]

Avalon failed. And it was quite big enough.

Also the Falcon 'taxi pack,' makes up an ultra tiny percentage of taxi's. 99% are 2-3 yr old models bought at auction and converted.

As for the million km thing... those type of high mileage "success stories," make up the vast majority of cabs.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by Steffo

As for the million km thing... those type of high mileage "success stories," make up the vast majority of cabs.

Well thats heresay.

What we do know is that a lot of the performance Falcons have had issues with common parts that would also be found in baseline/cab model falcons.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Unfortunately for this simplistic view of the automotive world, 'quality' is only one of the factors that go into choosing a vehicle. Interesting that in this survey, for example, in the medium SUVs Prado and Kluger are at the top of the quality list while the Territory is towards the bottom. However if you turn to the Wheels WASP tests you find that Territory is near the top in primary safety while Prado and Kluger are well and truly at the bottom. Fine panel gaps and immaculate warranty records are not going to make one iota of difference if you come round a bend on a wet road and find an accident that you have to suddenly brake for and avoid. In such a situation good engineering design suddenly becomes terribly important and makes you wish you'd paid more attention to it in the showroom rather than ogling the paintwork.

For those who've been following the Powers and Top Gear surveys for years Drive.com.au's 'sensational' news is very ho hum. Most of the major brands available in Australia are covered in these surveys and Ford and GM's results are on a par with those overseas. The big surprise for Asian/Japanese worshippers will be how the European brand Skoda outpolls all of them again and again. Skoda will be available in Australia later this year and will combine good design with quality, a combination that few Asian manufacturers (except Honda and Mazda) manage to achieve.

And you know what's funny?

Skoda = rebadged VW.

[andrewts]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

Well that sort of limits the choice to 4 cars. Lets see, Camry and 380 don't have big enough boots to house both luggage and an lpg system easily. This just leaves Falcon and Commodore, Ford of which offers a taxi pack. Yeah have to agree with you there. Funny they don't use Falcons in NZ though.

Good to hear but I think it would be a car in a minority, expecially when we have had members on here who have gone through 3 complete different engines before the

[/QUOTE]

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by Steffo

And you know what's funny? Skoda = rebadged VW.

Not quite as simplistic as that. Skoda is part of the VW group, and they do share chassis and engines, but so do a lot of cars.

a couple of quotes off wiki:

The German automobile TV show Auto Motor und Sport compared the Škoda Octavia with its cousin, the Volkswagen Golf Mark V and concluded that the Škoda Octavia was slightly better than the Volkswagen Golf owing to a little more interior space and other specific ergonomics, better build quality, better driveability and a lower price.

Along with other Škodas, the Czech-built Octavia has been a markedly reliable vehicle, more so than the Audi A3 and Volkswagen Golf with which it shares platforms. In 2006 Warranty Direct, a UK-based provider of mechanical warranties for used cars, rated Škoda the top manufacturer (above Mazda and Honda), while Audi came seventh from bottom. The Octavia specifically had a reliability index of 32.74 (lower being more reliable) while the Golf produced over the same period was 87.28 and the Audi A3 99.43.

[new2ford]

Thanks for expanding on that Dave_au. The other thing is that, having received the capital injection needed to help it recover from years of neglect under communism, Skoda is now returing to its former role as an innovative designer of uniquely Czech cars - of which Roomster is the first cab off the rank. I look forward to our Toyota troll who places so much emphasis on build quality, trading in his RAV4 for a better-built Roomster which, unlike the RAV4, also has good engineering design.

And on an upbeat - for fans of Australian cars, when you look at vehicles like the Prado, Kluger and Territory isn't it good to know that little Ford Australia can produce better engineering design (and ergonomics, interior space etc) than great big Toyota Japan? Tends to balance out the quality argument a bit - as well as protecting your life a whole lot more. Toyota designs for the American market and their great reactive (I mean reactive, not proactive) achievement in the current RAV4 is to make it less prone to rolling over than its predecessor thanks to relentless American media exposure. As for the 4Runner (remember that?) it wasn't quite so lucky - oh but I'm sure it was well-assembled and reliable.

[Dave_au]

Actually I pass my hat to the Hilux/4 Runners - their actually well built and very reliable, and should rightly share the limelight with the 75/78 and 100 series Cruisers.

Theirs a great video by top gear of their efforts to kill an old Hilux - it went very well.

Prado and Kluger are more for city life.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

Actually I pass my hat to the Hilux/4 Runners - their actually well built and very reliable, and should rightly share the limelight with the 75/78 and 100 series Cruisers.

Theirs a great video by top gear of their efforts to kill an old Hilux - it went very well.

Prado and Kluger are more for city life.

He's talking about their poor dynamics, not how well pieced together they are.

[DOC]

Originally Posted by Redrum

Where it is rare for any of my fords not to have had some sort of problem. I still drive fords and still love them, go figure.

I think the answer in a funny way its not a aussie car if were not patching it up in some way with a peice of wire or some tape etc etc, it's what were used to.

I read the whats wrong with your ABC car and yes some faults are in need of attention but in the main most are trivial.

My window switch fell out of the arm rest ( broken retainer clip ) my answer shove a piece of paper in there, bumber let go in the heat , who cares it went down again, boots not lined up, small mark on one of the rims, mark in the paint, don't care about any of it, to me it's my ford and the faults are part of it's characture and i love every one of them and what makes it a ford, and Ill take ford muscle with all of its niggly faults over a perfect boring ride anyday.

[merlin]

"European and Australian cars consistently lag behind their Asian competitors in quality,"

Tell me something I don't know...

[VeloXR6]

The Koreans may have 'built the car better' - but it does not say that they 'built a better car'

This survey is just confirming what we all knew... koreans have more work ethic, passion and skill than Victorians....

[Richo72]

Let me put my spin on this.....

I buy a European and spend $100k plus (and have)...it better bloody well be spot on, or I will **** can it in a survey...simply because my expectations are higher

I buy a cheapy from Korea (and have) have lower expectations, and all it needs to do is start in the morning to get a good survey outcome

I buy Australian (and have) and basic nationalistic bias has me expecting European quality, after all, I keep hearing how great our cars are....I end up applying Euro expecations to a $30k car...and WOW...surprisingly it has lower ratings

Now if I rated all on the same basis....what would the outcome be?? If I sit in a Merc, Holden and Hyandai Grandeur and test drove them for 2 weeks one after the other...how would my perceptions shift?? At the end of the day...I'd still want the merc, most probably buy the Holden and remain glad that I don't have to drive the Hyandai again....

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by Steffo

He's talking about their poor dynamics, not how well pieced together they are.

And what the Bravo/Ranger is any better? I think not.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

interesting read, bit of a smack to the face to Ford and Holden. Whodathunkit!...Korean cars are better built than a Territory! :(

And you are surprised!