shell e10 ethanol beware!!

[RG]

Originally Posted by fordAU

Thanks for that, will try that next and see how it goes.

These AU XR8's are a great ride, love em but they are highly stressed buggers, you would think the missus would be enough :hihi:

Yep they do share a bit with women. Although it is a toss up which is worse on a bad day

[Kev_BLNXR8_Ute]

I second that,
The Shell V-Racing 100 is great stuff 5% blend i believe.
Only down side, Its NOT CHEAP

I don't, wont and will never use the Shell 98 as it is cr@p and makes my ute ping its head off, but the 100 is great stuff, if you can find it....

Other than that i only use BP or Mobil, which is basically the same stuff out of the same factory anyway.
It is amazing how it all varies as, I can still get the odd tank full that will ping a little so I just add 1/2 a bottle of booster



Kev

[Macca23]

Ive been usuing my local Mobil e-10. Supposedly 98-octaine for 2 years now in 3 different cars, and never had a problem! I get good milage in the bf, Im very happy with it.

[mrw82]

hi everyone, i work in the fuel industry repairing pumps and dispensers at servos, so i know a few things about the fuel.
first thing i'll say is i've used it in my work van and noticed an increase in Km per tank, but will NEVER use this in any of my own cars.
shell E10 they start off with 91 ron fuel, add ethanol which increases ron rating by 4 points to give a 95 ron blend of fuel.
Vpower racing is just the Vpower with ethanol added (i think its 5%).
BP E10 they start with a lower grade of fuel 87 RON, add the E10 to bring it up to 91RON.
the problems with E10 are that it is a very good cleaner. it will strip crap built up in your tank and send it through the cars system blocking the filter. so if you use E10 change your filter more regularly. in saying that it also strips clean the underground tanks and sends the crap through the pump system, the pumps have 3 filters on them, one pre pump, one post pump and one in the nozzle so theres not really any issue of the crap getting through to your car, it just constantly blocks the pump filters, (just about weekly at some sites).
the other issue is water, all underground tanks get water in them, cant be avoided, water will separate from ULP and Diesel and settle to the bottom of the tank which can easily be checked and pumped out, however with E10 the water will blend with the ethanol and is harder to detect (especially with the training (or lack of) that servo employees have).

once the water reaches a saturation point in the ethanol you get Phase Separation, which is where all the ethanol and water separate out of the fuel and settle on the bottom of the tank, trouble is your left with very acidic petrol and an amount of pure ethanol/water sitting in the tank right where the pump pickup is. now you can imagine what could happen if this got pumped into your car!

now, i dont know of any specific cases where this has happened but have been told this is what will happen if water is not detected. i have been at sites where they depend on electronic dips for their readings and when i have told them E/dips wont detect water in E10 tank they responded with "well (major oil company) would have told us if there was a different procedure so we'll keep doing it this way".

i have been at a site who had water removed from an E10 tank and were about to put the pumps back into service, i asked it the petrol had been tested "no, should it" i had to take a sample and have it lab tested before the pumps could be put back into use. when i told her the potential to stuff so many customer cars she was shocked, she had had no training other than once there is 4cm of water in the tank shut it down. (not the case with E10 for reasons already mentioned)

if the sites knew how to test the tanks properly, knew the procedure and knew the potential, i would recommend E10 for newer cars, wouldn't use it in any thing over 10 years old regardless. but the fact is they dont have a clue and its a risk im not prepared to take in my own car.

[mrw82]

oh yeah, i heard the other day that from next year V8 supercars will be running on E80. 80% ethanol.
some sort of carbon neutral scam crap i suppose.

[Lightning Strike GT]

Why do Shell charge upto 20C a litre more for V Power racing than V Power
I thought ethanol was there to reduce the fuel costs
VPR is just VP with the 5% ethanol added so why the rip off

[mrw82]

that i dont know.

[ABoringUsername]

Originally Posted by mrw82

oh yeah, i heard the other day that from next year V8 supercars will be running on E80. 80% ethanol.
some sort of carbon neutral scam crap i suppose.

The octane number of Ethanol is much higher than that of standard petrol. Also will cut costs. Energy density is, however, lower.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by JG23BP

Why do Shell charge upto 20C a litre more for V Power racing than V Power
I thought ethanol was there to reduce the fuel costs
VPR is just VP with the 5% ethanol added so why the rip off

V-Power is 98 RON and V-Power Racing is 100 RON.

Let's just say I wouldn't want to have a car with an on edge tune for V-PR at the moment :

[ubute]

mrw82 - Yeah was talking to some guys from Gilbarco and they said they have a service guy who's job is almost solely to go around to all the servos to replace the E10 filters, sometimes weekly at some places. One of them said he filled a jerry can with E10 and went a week later to pour it out and nothing come out as the fuel had stripped the paint/sealant inside the can and clogged up the gauze filter on the spout. I think I'll keep away from E10 for now.

[Quasi]

Originally Posted by ltd

Weren't they also the suzuki mighty boy? Didn't Hammond roll one of these on the top gear van challenge?

The mighty boy was a ute, not a van....only big enough to put one dog in the back and designed to just barely seat two short & skinny 17 year olds up front.

[mrw82]

[QUOTE=ubute]mrw82 - Yeah was talking to some guys from Gilbarco and they said they have a service guy who's job is almost solely to go around to all the servos to replace the E10 filters, sometimes weekly at some places. QUOTE]

thats cliffy that does the filters,it'd drive me nuts just changing filters all day, dont know how he puts up with it. the E10 is great if you need something cleaned! but thats about it.

those holden scurry vans are the same as a suzuki carry van, the mighty boy is the ute.

[Peuty]

Originally Posted by mrw82

those holden scurry vans are the same as a suzuki carry van, the mighty boy is the ute.

That's the one! Was trying to remember what the name of the Suzie version was.

[XR06T]

schnoods,

you can get united 98 ron on gilmore av in kwinana. i have filled it up with the stuff once and didn't notice a difference. i had no idea it was an ethanol blend, and it is only 5cpl more than the 91 ron stuff.

not sure if i should keep using it?

[Lightning Strike GT]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

V-Power is 98 RON and V-Power Racing is 100 RON.

Let's just say I wouldn't want to have a car with an on edge tune for V-PR at the moment :

Ethanol ups the RON being the 5% that is why it is only 2 points up if it was 10% it would put it about the 104 mark
It is still a blantant rip off

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by JG23BP

Ethanol ups the RON being the 5% that is why it is only 2 points up if it was 10% it would put it about the 104 mark
It is still a blantant rip off

As far as I know it's the only 100RON available and the supplies are all over the shop. You can charge whatever you feel like if you have no competition :

I've never used it. 99.9% of the time, BP Ulitmate is in the tank.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by Stav

This morning I thought I would be environmentally friendly and use shell ethanol based fuel.Withing 5 minutes of driving the car backfired like chitty chitty bang bang.That subsided so I thought I would give it benefit of the doubt and drove all day with it.Once home I heard a whizzing sound from the rear.It turns out that my walbro pump may be damaged by this fuel.It sounds like the internals are being eaten up by a corrosive substance.This is all on the first day of using this fuel. My expensive pump sounds ready to die...

I have to say that I am not impressed with this crap.

Ethanol is corrosive to everything except high quality steel. I dare say it got into a polyurathane seal or something else in your pump and ate it away.

[mrw82]

if we have to pull apart a pump or soleniod valve on an E10 pump we make sure we have replacement diaphragms and o rings because the ethanol makes them swell up and while it seals while bolted up it will never reseal (thats if you can get it back together) and this is on equiptment that IS compatible with upto 10% ethanol. regular ULP we have no problems.

[Stav]

Maybe the walbro doesnt like this stuff. I definately know that bosch void the warranty if ethanol based fuel is used.Maybe its the same with the walbro?

[Gammaboy]

I somehow doubt 5 mins of running a 10% ethanol fuel will kill a pump.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by JG23BP

Why do Shell charge upto 20C a litre more for V Power racing than V Power
I thought ethanol was there to reduce the fuel costs
VPR is just VP with the 5% ethanol added so why the rip off

Simple really,
PROFITS.........

[Thunder]

My daily driver is a Honda that will only run smooth on premium. This car was sold around the world as a "premium fuel" car, and yet here in Australia it was a 91 car (with the same engine-go figure!).

So i have always filled it with 98 all its life or else it pings and rattles like hell all day.

I tried 91 shell E10 on monday because the servo was out of V-power, 150km later, i cant tell the difference between it or V-power 98.

Time will tell though.

[banarcus]

Originally Posted by fordAU

Guys, any windsor owners having ping issues with E10 fuels ?

Mine has had nil issues to date with the 95 stuff. My windsor has a cam, more compression and timing advanced.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by Thunder

My daily driver is a Honda that will only run smooth on premium. This car was sold around the world as a "premium fuel" car, and yet here in Australia it was a 91 car (with the same engine-go figure!).

So i have always filled it with 98 all its life or else it pings and rattles like hell all day.

I tried 91 shell E10 on monday because the servo was out of V-power, 150km later, i cant tell the difference between it or V-power 98.

Time will tell though.

The US have 87ron in some fuels at the pump. So technically to them, 91 is probably premium.

With the way things are though, Id suggest RON in Aus fluctuates. 95 should be 95 any day you use it, so technically the car should never ping on one tank, but not the next tank of the same brand of fuel. It either runs 95 or it doesnt, or you arent getting 95.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by fmc351

The US have 87ron in some fuels at the pump. So technically to them, 91 is probably premium.

The US uses MON not the same scale as we do,93 is pretty much equivalent to our 98.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by nugget378

The US uses MON not the same scale as we do,93 is pretty much equivalent to our 98.

Only the Jamaicans Mon.

Ah well, that explains nothing then.

[AusM]

Originally Posted by Peuty

So what octane rating is E10? I just thought it was cheap dodgy crap that you only put in Korean cars.

I remember Subaru putting out a statement that their cars that require 98RON (like WRX STI) should not use '98RON with ethanol' - not because of corrosive precautions, but because it effectively ran like fuel a few RON lower - and knock was an issue, particulary under high load (lower Motor Octane Number perhaps?). I'm sure dropping your timing to suit the fuel would work, but who wants to wipe off performance?

Maybe everyday driving is fine, but for 'performance applications' I think you'd be silly not to be watching a knock sensor or other air/fuel data when you first use it...

2004 No E10 list:
http://www.abc.net.au/brisbane/stories/s1466787.htm
Ford All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10 except as listed below. The following models may not operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel because of drivability concerns: Focus (All), F-series (1986-1992), Ka (All), Maverick (1988-1993), Mondeo (All), Transit (1996 onwards). The following models do not operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel: Capri (1989-1994), Courier (All), Econovan (pre-2002), Festiva (1991-1999), Laser 1.3L & 1.5L (1980-1989), Laser 1.6L (1989-2002), Raider (All), Telstar (All).

[alstar5]

I own a BA Futura. I used to use BP Ultimate all the time, I went back to study and began using Mobil Synergy 2000 (Normal 91) and didn't notice a difference except when paying. Then Mobil brought out E10 6 months ago and I started using that, I get more km to the litre but have noticed a slight decrease in power - no pinging though (which I did occassionally get before). The power thing doesn't bother me as it's still more than I need, especially when I drive Prius' and Camry's at work all day.

Look, honestly, when I first got my car I only wanted the best. But as time goes on you get honest with yourself and for a car that's only worth $11k tops, E-10 is perfect!!!

[fordAU]

Originally Posted by Russell

Try BP ultimate.

You are spot on about Ultimate Russell, took the thing for a run today to get a few k's up on it, filled up with the BP stuff and no ping at all, nothing anyway that I could detect over the exhaust.

Damn these wheezers are loud at 6,000rpm :

A bit OT but I'm sure no one minds,

Cheers.

[AusM]

Originally Posted by nugget378

The US uses MON not the same scale as we do,93 is pretty much equivalent to our 98.

None of our 98RON is above 88MON... some are as low as 85.

Originally Posted by Thunder

My daily driver is a Honda that will only run smooth on premium. This car was sold around the world as a "premium fuel" car, and yet here in Australia it was a 91 car (with the same engine-go figure!)

Aus released cars are detuned - more conservative timing - to allow for the less stable fuel. Common with many Jap. cars as they have 100RON on tap over there...

Originally Posted by fmc351

95 should be 95 any day you use it

RON reduces with age of fuel, so a servo with little turnover will be releasing lower RON fuel until it is next topped up... Dunno by how much, but 'fresh' fuel is important if RON is critical. Also why some drag strips now sell AVGAS in pre-sealed tins rather than filling from a bowser.

... as I understand it all anyway!