Do you pre-fill your oil filter and, if so, are we doing it right?

[uniacidz]

Remove old filter, smear new oil on new oil seal of filter and press against thread and turn to righty tighty plus 1/2 turn more with oil wrench

Sometimes prefill, sometimes don't.
I feel rebellious when I don't prefill

Car hasn't exploded

Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using Tapatalk

[mike_nofx]

While people have been filling filters for decades with no issues, others have been installing empty filters for decades with no issues.

Have had Falcons in the family with 400k, 650k and 750k all with filters always installed empty, never an engine issue due to lack of lubrication.

Originally Posted by GO FURTHER

Reading through this thread, it has confirmed to me, that most of the general population don’t understand the difference between “dry” and “wet” fill.

I've read every post in this thread and cannot see any person who showed they did not understand this. Out of curiosity, which posts indicated the member did not understand this?

[pottery beige]

always pre fill here

you can argue strawmans and semantics all you want

blaa blaa

[Trump]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

always pre fill here

you can argue strawmans and semantics all you want

blaa blaa

I'm up for some antics...

[solarite_guy]

In the 90s we lost an engine do to accumulated cam bearing surface degradation caused during startups. At the time and investigation, we switched to using roller cam bearings, not to reduce running friction, but to reduce the accumulated wear caused during start up.

Then years later we found ourselves in the situation where a 60mm roller cam bearing set will not physically fit into Windsor engine block. We discovered a 60mm babbitt cam bearing will fit using cam journals bored to the diameter to accept 55mm roller cam bearings. Concerned about the prior experience in the 90s, we tried the Durabond coated cam bearings instead of the Clevite77s. Using valve springs with over 500lb seat pressure, we never had a problem with the Durabond coated cam bearings.

Their little write up here shows the acknowledgement of momentary lack of pressurized lubrication during startup. So it is a condition that exists, even if typical street applications don't tend to suffer disastrous consequences. This is why I prefer to shorten the time needed to bring the oiling system up to pressure as soon as possible.

http://www.dura-bondbearing.com/Prod...mance-Bearings

HIGH PERFORMANCE CAM BEARING - The high performance all-round cam bearings offer more than double the fatigue strength of conventional bearings, withstand racing spring loads, and maintain the excellent surface characteristics of Babbitt.

Specific Contributions of the Design and Processes:

Micro-Babbitt: A very thin layer of lining which reduces the microscopic deflections that occur to a bearing when loaded and thus increases fatigue life.

Grain-Controlled Babbit: By cooling the Babbitt quickly in the casting process, very fine grain structure is achieved. By leaving the structure as cast, tensile strength is almost doubled over the standard bearing. This hard and high strength condition provides the "toughness" needed for racing applications.

Burnishing: Cold working the surface of the Babbitt eliminates micro-fissures that can lead to fatigue failure. The surface also exhibits a higher hardness.

Precision Machining: High Performance manufacturing tolerances are closer to control installed oil clearances, which reduce operating bearing pressure.

FLUOROPOLYMER COMPOSITE COATED BEARINGS

This dry lubricant actually penetrates the surface where it has been applied. The primary advantage is that bearings with FLUOROPOLYMER Composite Coating retain engine oil on the surface, even under extreme heat and pressure conditions.

Being a lubricant itself, the coating provides secondary (back-up) lubrication in the event that momentary oil starvation occurs. This characteristic is especially important during start-up because oil does not reach all critical components immediately.

Over 2,000 hours of lab testing and a season of late model NASCAR testing proved the High Performance Bearing was up to the test. It's quality that stands the test of time.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Trump

I'm up for some antics...

semi ones??

[Trump]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

semi ones??

[aussiblue]

I'm probably overthinking this; the amount of thread burr I've seen on filters of various brands suggest contaminate from the new filter might be a greater risk than contaminates from the new oil.

[jpblue1000]

As I understand it the oil is fed to the engine through the large centre hole of a spin on filter. The engine feeds oil into the filter via the outside small holes then through the pleated filter medium. Others post got me thinking so I checked it online and my understanding still holds true.
By not filling the filter with oil prior to installation, oil pressure is not immediately provided to the engine components.
While oil remains insitu between bearing and journal its pressurised oil that provides separation of rotating faces.
On horizontal filters I find that filling the filter full over a few minutes then bring up close to the thread I spin it up in my hand as i tip and install. The centrifugal force holds the oil in place just long enough.
JP

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by solarite_guy

In the 90s we lost an engine do to accumulated cam bearing surface degradation caused during startups. At the time and investigation, we switched to using roller cam bearings, not to reduce running friction, but to reduce the accumulated wear caused during start up.

Then years later we found ourselves in the situation where a 60mm roller cam bearing set will not physically fit into Windsor engine block. We discovered a 60mm babbitt cam bearing will fit using cam journals bored to the diameter to accept 55mm roller cam bearings. Concerned about the prior experience in the 90s, we tried the Durabond coated cam bearings instead of the Clevite77s. Using valve springs with over 500lb seat pressure, we never had a problem with the Durabond coated cam bearings.

Their little write up here shows the acknowledgement of momentary lack of pressurized lubrication during startup. So it is a condition that exists, even if typical street applications don't tend to suffer disastrous consequences. This is why I prefer to shorten the time needed to bring the oiling system up to pressure as soon as possible.

http://www.dura-bondbearing.com/Prod...mance-Bearings

HIGH PERFORMANCE CAM BEARING - The high performance all-round cam bearings offer more than double the fatigue strength of conventional bearings, withstand racing spring loads, and maintain the excellent surface characteristics of Babbitt.

Specific Contributions of the Design and Processes:

Micro-Babbitt: A very thin layer of lining which reduces the microscopic deflections that occur to a bearing when loaded and thus increases fatigue life.

Grain-Controlled Babbit: By cooling the Babbitt quickly in the casting process, very fine grain structure is achieved. By leaving the structure as cast, tensile strength is almost doubled over the standard bearing. This hard and high strength condition provides the "toughness" needed for racing applications.

Burnishing: Cold working the surface of the Babbitt eliminates micro-fissures that can lead to fatigue failure. The surface also exhibits a higher hardness.

Precision Machining: High Performance manufacturing tolerances are closer to control installed oil clearances, which reduce operating bearing pressure.

FLUOROPOLYMER COMPOSITE COATED BEARINGS

This dry lubricant actually penetrates the surface where it has been applied. The primary advantage is that bearings with FLUOROPOLYMER Composite Coating retain engine oil on the surface, even under extreme heat and pressure conditions.

Being a lubricant itself, the coating provides secondary (back-up) lubrication in the event that momentary oil starvation occurs. This characteristic is especially important during start-up because oil does not reach all critical components immediately.

Over 2,000 hours of lab testing and a season of late model NASCAR testing proved the High Performance Bearing was up to the test. It's quality that stands the test of time.

I think this is the reason why its a good idea to fill the filter
(as long as you can get the filter on without filling the filter with sh#t from under the car on the way to screwing it on )

when you think that when you start the car and idle 600rpm at least if it takes 3-5 seconds for the oil light to go out thats 30 -50 revolutions with just what has clung to parts and hasnt dripped off....thats a lot of turns without a lot of oil ......

if you can get the filter on clean .....it really cant hurt

[aussiblue]

delete

[BENT_8]

Never prefilled an oil filter in my life, cant even say i've heard of it on a petrol engine before reading this thread.
I've owned around 100 cars and serviced them all myself without 1 issue, mind you, 100 cars in 25 years suggets i never kept them long enough to find out.

The Toyota S series engines in the 2,2l Camry's are one of the most reliable 4 pots ever built and it would be almost impossible to prefill the filter as it screws on diagonally upside down, if prefilling was necessary, i find it hard to believe Toyota would have designed a bread and butter engine with a filter mounted as such preventing prefilling..

[aussiblue]

o prefill the filter as it screws on diagonally upside down, if prefilling was necessary, i find it hard to believe Toyota wouldn't have designed a bread and butter engine with a filter mounted as such preventing prefilling.

If you pre-fill from the outer perimeter holes only, as you are apparently meant to do, the anti drain back valve on a good filter should actually prevent any material amount of the oil flowing out. How much oil, if any, seeps through the media filter will probably depend on the porosity and permeability of the filter media without oil pump pressure, perhaps the viscosity of the oil and how long you leave filled filter before screwing it on.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

If you pre-fill from the outer perimeter holes only, as you are apparently meant to do, the anti drain back valve on a good filter should actually prevent any material amount of the oil flowing out. How much oil, if any, seeps through the media filter will probably depend on the porosity and permeability of the filter media without oil pump pressure, perhaps the viscosity of the oil and how long you leave filled filter before screwing it on.

I ssume you mean the anti drainback membrane as the anti drain back valve is internal.

[aussiblue]

No; I mean the anti-drain back valve:






It's immediately visible behind the perimeters perimeter holes and you can also depress in with the small funnel spout opening it to fill the filter from a perimeter hole above it

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

No; I mean the anti-drain back valve:

image


image

It's immediately visible behind the perimeters perimeter holes and you can also depress in with the small funnel spout opening it to fill the filter from a perimeter hole above it

That is the anti drainback membrane, the anit drainback valve is to prevent drainback from the engine of oil which has passed by the filtration system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_fi...e_Internal.png

As you can see from the diagram, it doesn't matter if you prefill as the oil cannot pass any further until the pressure has risen at the intake side in order to push past the anti drainback valve anyway
A filter has a bypass provision to allow unfiltered oil to bypass the filter at initial startup which would allow oil through to the engine side faster than pushing the prefilled oil through the filtration medium.

[GO FURTHER]

Does anyone here think that when they take their car to a Ford dealer for service, the mechanics or apprentices pre-fill the oil filters?

I've watched them on many occasions.... They take it out of the box, rip off the thin plastic seal on the filter and just screw it on.

Ever heard of gravity?

If you screw on a new empty filter, then fill your engine with oil.... Don't you think that some of that oil is going to soak into the filter before you fire it up?

BTW.... An FG i6 takes an extra 1 litre of oil if you change the filter, but not all that 1 litre fits in the filter.

[aussiblue]

Semantics but do a Google image search for "oil filter anti-drainback valve". Also do the same with "oil filter anti-drainback membrane" you get very few hits. "Anti-drainback gasket" you'll get a couple too. The vast majority call it a "anti-drainback valve".

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by GO FURTHER

Does anyone here think that when they take their car to a Ford dealer for service, the mechanics or apprentices pre-fill the oil filters?

I've watched them on many occasions.... They take it out of the box, rip off the thin plastic seal on the filter and just screw it on.

Ever heard of gravity?

If you screw on a new empty filter, then fill your engine with oil.... Don't you think that some of that oil is going to soak into the filter before you fire it up?

BTW.... An FG i6 takes an extra 1litre of oil if you change the filter, but not all that 1 litre fits in the filter.

Agreed, worked in Toyota dealerships for years, never heard or seen it done on a petrol engine.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

Semantics do a Google image search for "oil filter anti-drainback valve".

It is what it is, one is a membrane designed to keep the filtered crap from returning to the oil pan, the other is a one way valve designed to prevent gravity return of the oil on the engine side of the filter.
If you understand how they work you'll see why the two are different parts and how prefilling makes no difference.
The oil you put in before you install the filter cant travel any further until pressure is achieved at the inlet side and the bypass valve is included to allow oil to reach the engines internals faster than filtered oil.

All you're doing by prefilling is bypassing the bypass filter which makes no significant difference as the anti drainback valve wont open until intake preassure is achieved.
You have a greater void between the anti drainback valve and the engines oil passages after removing the old filter, thus removing the anti drainback mechanism, than a filter could possibly have internally when installed dry.

[aussiblue]

And in the original patent it's described as a "multiple function valve". https://www.google.com/patents/US4872976 yes and I understand exactly how they work.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

And in the original patent it's described as a "multiple function valve". ttps://www.google.com/patents/US4872976

I think you're clutching at straws to appear correct, the two parts to the filter are very different as shown in the diagram i provided.

That patent describes the two internal valves, the anti drainback and the bypass valves.

This patent describes the anti drainback membrane

https://www.google.com.au/patents/US...kiBJMQ6AEIKTAA

[aussiblue]

https://www.google.com/patents/US3339738
"The anti-drainback valve used heretofore consisted of either a ball check valve, or that shown in the above mentioned Walulik patent, consisting of a fiat rubber diaphragm with a biasing metal member, urging the rubber diaphragm in a seated or closed position over the oil inlet ports."

And 99% of filter manufacturers call in an "anti-drainback" valve if you go to their websites. I can only find one or two sites calling it a "anti-drainback membrane". I think majority usage rules. What the wiki page shows is usually called an anti-syphon valve see http://www.rycofilters.com.au/librar..._mail_out1.pdf for example.

[XD 351 Ute]

I've only ever pre-filled filters when servicing larger diesel equipment, mostly due to the volume of oil required to fill the sometimes multiple filters, and even then, only if said filters were upright or somewhere near that.
I've never bothered on anything petrol, and if there was a concern with oil pressure, usually remove the coil lead, and crank the engine until the oil light goes out, or the gauge indicates pressure.

Ed

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

https://www.google.com/patents/US3339738
"The anti-drainback valve used heretofore consisted of either a ball check valve, or that shown in the above mentioned Walulik patent, consisting of a fiat rubber diaphragm with a biasing metal member, urging the rubber diaphragm in a seated or closed position over the oil inlet ports."

And 99% of filter manufacturers call in an "anti-drainback" valve if you go to their websites. I can only find one or two sites calling it a "anti-drainback membrane". I think majority usage rules. What the wiki page shows is usually called an anti-syphon valve see http://www.rycofilters.com.au/librar..._mail_out1.pdf for example.

Lol, the ryco diagram is pointing to the outlet side of the filter where it says anti drain back valve, that is the anti drainback valve which prevents oil returning to the filter when the engine is stopped, the anti drain back membrane is not labelled but is the thin red piece which clearly shows it divides the oil pick up from the pre filtered side of the filter.

[commodorenutt]

Originally Posted by GO FURTHER

Ever heard of gravity?

If you screw on a new empty filter, then fill your engine with oil.... Don't you think that some of that oil is going to soak into the filter before you fire it up?

Unless you can push oil through the pump by gravity, and then push it uphill and into the filter, it won't happen. Most, if not all of the 6.8L dropped into an F6 I6 goes straight down to the sump, and what doesn't make it is probably laying on the valvetrain.

Originally Posted by aussiblue

No; I mean the anti-drain back valve:

image

Not all filters have this, but quote a lot do - it's become more common over the last 2 decades or so.
It was a selling point on Ryco filters back in the 80s for the Holden 6. They claimed it stopped cold-start lifter rattle on worn engines, by maintaining a quantity of oil in the filter. It worked. I remember comparing filters in the early 90s to make sure the one I was getting had it.

If the filter hangs vertically, and there's no syphon effect, it's not needed.

[mik]

Always prefill my filters , untill the whole filter on both sides of the filter material are 90% full .

[aussiblue]

lol, the ryco diagram is pointing to the outlet side of the filter where it says anti drain back valve, that is the anti drainback valve which prevents oil returning to the filter when the engine is stopped, the anti drain back membrane is not labelled but is the thin red piece which clearly shows it divides the oil pick up from the pre filtered side of the filter.

No it's pointing to the whole anti-drain mechanism which includes the spring and plate which holds the silicon valve gasket agains the inlet holes.

But see Valvoline:
http://valvolinefilters.com.au/oil-filters/
Uniflux http://www.uniflux-filters.ro/oil-fi...back-valve-17/
FRAM http://www.fram.com/support/faqs/
K & N https://www.knfilters.com/wrenchoff_oilfilter.htm
Bosch https://www.boschautoparts.com/docum...8-bee80d4150aa
Denso http://densoautoparts.com/filters-oil-filters.aspx
AC Delco https://www.acdelco.com.au/pdf/flyer...er_filters.pdf
Mobil https://mobiloil.com/en/article/car-...-how-they-work
Purulator http://www.pureoil.com/fileadmin/use...ayZoom-rev.jpg
Royal Purple http://www.royalpurple.com.au/index....oil_filter.php
Hastings http://www.federatedautoparts.com/Do...s/S002E018.pdf

Then find me more than one filter manufacturer (or even one) that does not call it and "anti-drainback valve".

[asagaai]

I never pre filled an oil filter.

Had a Camry V6 that had 320,000 km on it- engine still pulling hard-only thing that killed that car was my daughter totaling it.

Had a Ford Festiva 1.3- had 250,000 km on it. Towards the end I drove the crap out of the engine trying to kill it- never could. Everything else died- window tints, tyres, suspension- brakes - was approaching a new clutch, tyres, suspension and brakes. rego and insurance was due ......put the car to pasture - but the engine was still performing like it did with 5,000 km on it....

I think if you have pre warmed your car to drop the oil- the engine is coated, and the start up post oil change as long as you let it run 10 secs idling etc and avoid revs to get oil around we are splitting hairs and over thinking this

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

silicon valve gasket agains the inlet holes.

lol, 'Silicone valve gasket', thats a fancy way of saying membrane isnt it.
I always thought a 'gasket' prevented passage either way, a thermostat gasket prevents coolant leakage, a rocker cover gasket prevents oil leakage whereas a membrane allows passage in a particular direction.
Considering the oil is able to pass through it in one direction, i'd call it a sprung loaded membrane.