HOLDEN Boss: "Australians still want large cars

[banarcus]

Originally Posted by ST

Have to agree with the rear door issue, that has been notorious in the Falcon for a while. It just doesn't open anywhere near as much as it should and who knows why. Very frustrating, especially when (as you have proven) it can come in handy.

The very reason why we traded in our BA for a Golf. It was better equipped in nearly every way than a Fairmont Ghia and the back doors open properly too. It did everything better than the BA other than not having a 5.4L V8 under the bonnet(something that is sadly missed).

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by banarcus

The very reason why we traded in our BA for a Golf. It was better equipped in nearly every way than a Fairmont Ghia and the back doors open properly too. It did everything better than the BA other than not having a 5.4L V8 under the bonnet(something that is sadly missed).

Thats the problem with the Falcon or commodore. They only sold 6000 units out of a total of 87,000 vehicles sold last month. A mere 6.8 percent of the market. You want a car to tow or hold a big family, you can get a large or medium SUV. You want a car for 4 people to fit in comfort, you can buy mazda 3 or lancer. You want a car for good fuel economy, you purchase one of the smaller cars. you want a car with a decent warranty, you buy a mitsubishi, you want a car with cheap finance, you buy a toyota.

They are just another car. Two out of very very many to choose from. Neither excels in any particular area. Whilst impossible (as governmentss still purchase a large number of the cars), just imagine if 4% (a very small percentage) of new car buyers each month switched away from the commodore or falcon. Falcodore sales would half straight away.

Afetr all Barnacus can happily go from a BA to a Golf.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by prydey

interesting - holden are releasing a dedicated lpg commodore in the 2nd half of 2011. that will be a blow to falcon. they have had an exclusive product up until now. bit of a lapse at the moment waiting for the new one to come online. i wonder if it will be the same orbital system on the commodore.


and yes, i agree with the holden boss - people do still want large cars. the number of people is less, but there is still a market.

It will be a single fuel version of the current vapour system they have now, not LPi.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by b0son

So do Ford... or is it available at last?

Ford have them but do not need them right now.

Seeing as the current lineup already is powerful and uses less fuel than the opposition they may shelve them until needed, who knows.


http://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11267560

http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/experiencef150/

[prydey]

i believe the rear egress issue has been fixed somewhat with fg. haven't compared an fg with b series side by side but thought i'd read that the fg rear entry and exit is much better. no issues with mine.

[csv8]

Skoda Superb is nearly Fairlane inside size, and at a G6 price!!!

[Stoney!]

Originally Posted by glavas

I dont get what you mean???? A small 4 cylinder hatch with gear in the boot and 4 adults would struggle up a steep hill you would have to rev it's guts out. Were my maloo could do it with 8 people in the tray and not even break a sweat. Frankly these whole thing about little cars being better on fuel is nonsense. Large cars have come along way in the fuel consumption department. And after owning v8's all my life I still believe if your getting under 15l/100km your doing well.

You obviousley thinking about hatchbacks of the past or corolla's. These days with small capacity turbo's, and turbo diesel in most decent hatches that is no longer the case.

Stoney!

[glavas]

Originally Posted by Stoney!

You obviousley thinking about hatchbacks of the past or corolla's. These days with small capacity turbo's, and turbo diesel in most decent hatches that is no longer the case.

Stoney!

I disagree I have a 09 wrx, 05 Calais ls1, 09 ssv wagon and a e2 maloo all have engine mods and the wrx would have to be the worst no power until 3-4000rpm were the v8's have it from idle to redline...

[Cabbage]

[QUOTE=b0son]We take our GTI. It may be smaller but it is a better drive than my previous XR6 in every way. Handles better. Quicker. More comfortable inside. More comfortable for the driver over many hours (Syd->Ade 14hours). Uses way less fuel. Kids dont need the extra leg room which is about the only advantage the Falcon had. Even the boot in the Golf is more useable FFS..[/QUOTE

Try fitting a decent sized adult in the back seat and a bit of luggage. Thats what the Falcom and Commodores are made for.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by glavas

I dont get what you mean???? A small 4 cylinder hatch with gear in the boot and 4 adults would struggle up a steep hill you would have to rev it's guts out. Were my maloo could do it with 8 people in the tray and not even break a sweat. Frankly these whole thing about little cars being better on fuel is nonsense. Large cars have come along way in the fuel consumption department. And after owning v8's all my life I still believe if your getting under 15l/100km your doing well.

glavas - you totally missed the point flappist was making. i think he was having a go at your fuel economy, inferring that it was achieved driving downhill.

as for the large v small thing, some people still prefer large cars, regardless of whether smaller cars are more than capable. its that simple. no point arguing that a smaller car will do the job if the person doesn't want a smaller car.

for 90% of the time, i could make do with a smaller car, but every year we drive to qld for a holiday. you can't fit 4 people and luggage in a smaller car and travel 2000km accross the country in comfort with reasonable economy. well, i'm sure some would argue that you can, but we cant. not with esky and stroller and 4 cases and various other stuff.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by csv8

Skoda Superb is nearly Fairlane inside size, and at a G6 price!!!

Yeah, but who would want to be seen in a Skoda?

[csv8]

Originally Posted by stevz

Yeah, but who would want to be seen in a Skoda?

The new Skodas are pretty good !! Superb got a Car of the Year Award.

[FNQracing]

When Ford or Holden decide to build a Torana/Cortina sized RWD sedan with their current driveline - I guarantee they will be onto a winner!

The SIDI/I6 are *remarkably* fuel efficient given the weight they have to haul around. They will be approaching 4cyl economy if transplanted into a lighter car.

Today's small/medium cars and not *that* much smaller the Falcon for Commodore.

C'mon Ford and Holden, the large car is dying, and you know it!

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Seeing as the current lineup already is powerful and uses less fuel than the opposition they may shelve them until needed, who knows.

This is the problem. Ford think the Commodore is the only opposition. It isnt.

If I need a bigger car, I can get an SUV - and it can go places the Falcon cant. If I need economy, I pick the diesel variant.

There'll always be a market for those who are obsessed with nothing more than 0-100 times, but for the rest of us, the Falcon is an increasingly irrelevant proposition.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Cabbage

Try fitting a decent sized adult in the back seat and a bit of luggage. Thats what the Falcom and Commodores are made for.

Great, but how many people actually do that? A family car for real families, doesnt actually need acres of rear space.

It looks more like an argument for designing Falcadores for cops and taxi drivers.

[banarcus]

Originally Posted by b0son

If I need a bigger car, I can get an SUV - and it can go places the Falcon cant. If I need economy, I pick the diesel variant.

There'll always be a market for those who are obsessed with nothing more than 0-100 times, but for the rest of us, the Falcon is an increasingly irrelevant proposition.

Too true b0son. The large car market is shrinking despite better fuel economy and better than ever performance. The consumer in Australia is truely spoilt for choice when it comes to motor vehicles and sadly for Ford and GMH, their large cars are no longer the staple diet for Aussies these days.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by b0son

This is the problem. Ford think the Commodore is the only opposition. It isnt.

If I need a bigger car, I can get an SUV - and it can go places the Falcon cant. If I need economy, I pick the diesel variant.

There'll always be a market for those who are obsessed with nothing more than 0-100 times, but for the rest of us, the Falcon is an increasingly irrelevant proposition.

the lack of utility a Falcon sedan offers will be its death, not because it needs to shave 0.3 litres per 100km. A falcon has a similar road footprint to a Landcruiser, yet you cant do anything with a Falcon, a Corolla hatch has more usable cargo space. Private buyers have changed dramatically from just 10 years ago. People want a car which offers or hints at an active lifestyle.

Never in its history has having a wagon or hatch body more vital than it is now for Falcon, but for the first time its sedan only. Just look at Mondeo over 80% opted for the hatch over the sedan, and nearly half of Commodore private buyers are opting for a wagon, could you imagine this even a decade ago?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Afetr all Barnacus can happily go from a BA to a Golf.

Or more likely, Barnacus was one of many people who would be equally as comfortable in
a small or mid sized vehicle than owning a large sedan. The reason Ford charges so much
more for their Falcon over a Mid sized is because they have been able to do so for many
years and justify local manufacturing. I think the jig is up and people are now more willing
to give other vehicle types a go, especially if they offer better economy/space /design.

As I see it, Ford has two options, ride the falcon into the ground and change to something else
or start evolving the Falcon in the direction the market is heading, something not so easy to do...

Ford is stuck they love the Falcon, it's a great car but it cant cover the bulk of the market like it used to.
Ford needs to restart with a design that can capture a lot more of the market, a vehicle that can
be built as a small midsized to almost Falcon's current size as well as small and mid sized SUV.
If Falcon's future evolution or successor can cover those four markets, Ford will do all right.

[mik]

Originally Posted by FFOracing

When Ford or Holden decide to build a Torana/Cortina sized RWD sedan with their current driveline - I guarantee they will be onto a winner!

The SIDI/I6 are *remarkably* fuel efficient given the weight they have to haul around. They will be approaching 4cyl economy if transplanted into a lighter car.

Today's small/medium cars and not *that* much smaller the Falcon for Commodore.

C'mon Ford and Holden, the large car is dying, and you know it!

no doubt both powerplants from the 2 big cars would do better fuel economy with lighter bodies,allthough the sidi would probably do better in light body because it has less torque and its suffering now because of that , i`m not so sure about the torana ,cortina size thing, its good to have some mass for towing, and yes you can make small cars with more efficient room usage, but there`s no escapeing you can do more in a big car than a smaller one, and there`s an extra safety factor with the extra sheet metal around you.

[tex]

[QUOTE=Cabbage]

Originally Posted by b0son

We take our GTI. It may be smaller but it is a better drive than my previous XR6 in every way. Handles better. Quicker. More comfortable inside. More comfortable for the driver over many hours (Syd->Ade 14hours). Uses way less fuel. Kids dont need the extra leg room which is about the only advantage the Falcon had. Even the boot in the Golf is more useable FFS..[/QUOTE

Try fitting a decent sized adult in the back seat and a bit of luggage. Thats what the Falcom and Commodores are made for.

Try fitting two adults in the front!

Small cars are exactly that - small!

Our S3 gives me leg cramps when I'm in the front due to the inside of the wheel wells protuding into the footwell - you can't sit with both legs in front of you - one need to be off set.

Great if you've got one leg, not so good if you have two.

Fuel economy....... S3 is averaging 11's. The advertised economy is so far off the mark it isn't funny.

And did I mention it rides like a billy cart.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by tex

Our S3 gives me leg cramps when I'm in the front due to the inside of the wheel wells protuding into the footwell - you can't sit with both legs in front of you - one need to be off set.

Personal preference I guess.

I hated the Falcon's pedal position. Too far apart if you heel/toe, too far to the right if you ever use left foot for braking. I prefer a central pedal position, something my Falcon definietly did not have.

I've never had worse bum-rot than after hours spent in the Falcon. The seats were rubbish.

[mik]

Originally Posted by b0son

Personal preference I guess.

I hated the Falcon's pedal position. Too far apart if you heel/toe, too far to the right if you ever use left foot for braking. I prefer a central pedal position, something my Falcon definietly did not have.

I've never had worse bum-rot than after hours spent in the Falcon. The seats were rubbish.

thats surprising mate, are you a medium frame bloke?

[tex]

The pedals in the S3 are so close together I often press the brake and the accelerator at the same time, an no, it's not because I am heel toeing....

Don't get me wrong, I love the little Audi, it's just that it is too small imo to be a family car. And having driven a few different small 'sport' Euros, they run a suspension tune not ideal for our ordinary, not as smooth as glass roads. We're dinks with a couple of dogs - and it's too small for us. Put the hounds in the back, us in the front, and it's like we're all sharing one bean bag hahahahahaha. Fart, and all hell breaks loose.

For a long trip, give me the Falcon or Commodore any day!

[banarcus]

If Ford want the Falcon to be number one again, they have to catch up with the rest of the Ford world. Case in point, Mondeo. Big car, plenty of features that Falcon doesn't.

Falcon may have a 6cyl motor as standard, RWD and have a 6 sp auto available which may be important to some, others want a sunroof or xenon lights or perhaps powered, height adjustible front seats. If little cars can have everything bar a 4L 6cyl motor, RWD and less room, the choices are plentiful.

Ford need to make the Falcon relevant again.

[prydey]

i'm a little in the dark here. can someone list off all these great features the small cars have that the falcon doesn't!?

not fancy fluff that doesn't mean anything like xenon headlights. real world stuff that matters.

b0son - heel and toe? left foot braking? you're not serious are you. i'm sure manufacturers put a lot of thought into the placement of pedals so that people can drive them like race cars!!

brazen - you are all over the place with your arguements. falcon isn't selling becuase it can't go offroad, corolla has more luggage space (anytime you want to test that theory, i'm ready) and people want an active lifestyle. so which one is it. corolla or 4wd?

everyone knows the large car market is diminishing, but you small car lovers need to accept that there is still a market there.

[tapeworm]

[QUOTE=prydey]interesting - holden are releasing a dedicated lpg commodore in the 2nd half of 2011. that will be a blow to falcon. they have had an exclusive product up until now. bit of a lapse at the moment waiting for the new one to come online. i wonder if it will be the same orbital system on the commodore.


according to Wheels the new dedicated LPG Commodore will be the cheaper (ie:sh1thouse) vapour system. It'll be blown away by the Falcon imo as it'll be using a gas injection setup.

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by prydey

i'm a little in the dark here. can someone list off all these great features the small cars have that the falcon doesn't!?

not fancy fluff that doesn't mean anything like xenon headlights. real world stuff that matters.

b0son - heel and toe? left foot braking? you're not serious are you. i'm sure manufacturers put a lot of thought into the placement of pedals so that people can drive them like race cars!!

brazen - you are all over the place with your arguements. falcon isn't selling becuase it can't go offroad, corolla has more luggage space (anytime you want to test that theory, i'm ready) and people want an active lifestyle. so which one is it. corolla or 4wd?

everyone knows the large car market is diminishing, but you small car lovers need to accept that there is still a market there.

Prydey, it isn't just features that small cars have *over* the Falcon; it's features that small cars *now have* that were previously *only available* on large cars like Falcon and Commodore. You can now get 'large car features' on small/medium cars that cost a lot less to buy, insure, maintain and fuel up. And these days they're a lot funkier looking and fun to drive than in the past (4 cylinder doesn't mean slow anymore)

Ten years ago Ford had the Festiva, compare that to the new Fiesta and their poles apart, the new Fiesta's standard features are science fiction compared to its 2000 equivalent, and it's a much more compelling product overall. When you compare a 2010 FG to a 2000 AU, how much better has the Falcon gotten?

The problem is the Falcon and Commodore haven't evolved at the same pace as small cars/medium cars/soft roaders mainly because they aren't global cars like pretty much every other car available to Aussie consumers.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by tapeworm

according to Wheels the new dedicated LPG Commodore will be the cheaper (ie:sh1thouse) vapour system. It'll be blown away by the Falcon imo as it'll be using a gas injection setup.

according to this article
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11316794

the holden dedicated lpg system will be liquid injection. ford's new system will also be single fuel liquid injection system.

also, don't confuse vapour system with the old mixer system. holden's current dual fuel car runs a vapour injected system.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

Prydey, it isn't just features that small cars have *over* the Falcon; it's features that small cars *now have* that were previously *only available* on large cars like Falcon and Commodore. You can now get 'large car features' on small/medium cars that cost a lot less to buy, insure, maintain and fuel up. And these days they're a lot funkier looking and fun to drive than in the past (4 cylinder doesn't mean slow anymore)

Ten years ago Ford had the Festiva, compare that to the new Fiesta and their poles apart, the new Fiesta's standard features are science fiction compared to its 2000 equivalent, and it's a much more compelling product overall. When you compare a 2010 FG to a 2000 AU, how much better has the Falcon gotten?

The problem is the Falcon and Commodore haven't evolved at the same pace as small cars/medium cars/soft roaders mainly because they aren't global cars like pretty much every other car available to Aussie consumers.

that to me is just a case of manufacturers no longer discriminating against buyers of small cars.

again, i'm not familiar with small cars and their wonderful features. my wife has a ls focus and while that is an lx model, it is 4 yrs old, so hopefully the new models offer a fair bit more or the argument starts looking a bit scratchy.

[banarcus]

I was comparing a BA XR8 to a Golf Pacific. Apart from the 5.4L V8 and the great sound and acceleration, the Golf does everything better. Personal choice really, we chose a non Australian car and it does the job beautifully. You chose a FG XR6 looking at your avatar and I wont knock your choice because it obviously does the job for you.