Ford's performance arm is fighting back with a massaged and more powerful V8

[Bent8]

How much more torque will the Boss engines produce???

With any engine, getting over 100Nm/Litre is the key to a well tuned engine....eg BMW M5 5.0L 520Nm, AMG 6.2L 630Nm

So I'd say the BOSS should be making about 540Nm quite easily...close to the HSV's 550Nm but again the 6.0L LS2 will always have more grunt down low because as we all know, there's no replacement for displacement ;)

Assuming the weight stays the same for the GT's, their power to weight will increase from 156 to 163kW/tonne vs the HSV's 168kW/tonne, not much of an improvement really and still behind the Holden.

Then again if the day comes when an FPV GT with it's 5.4L quad cam V8 can keep up with an HSV GTS, then I'll say well done to FPV for matching the Generals performance with a smaller motor and a way better sounding V8 to boot!!

Time will tell I guess...

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by shepv8

when it comes down to it, the first question on most peoples minds is : which is quickest in a straight line , and usually the winner of this contest is the most desired.

that would be true if everyone was 15 years old. I would hope that most people with the money to spend on these cars had more sense that to ignore everything other than straight line speed. (edit: and power figures as well for that matter)
i know there are people like that, but i dont think they are the norm.

[FlipXW]

Originally Posted by BadMac

How sure are you of that? On another forum somebody who should know (I know hes likely to read this post) suggested its higher than that, in fact he suggests higher than 321KW. So how good was your source?

Thats mad, as long as its usable power down low i think everone will be very happy. Need to loose weight or atleast not gain in orion.

[shepv8]

I guess all the 15 year olds who think like that and have the money are buying HSV's then...mate, I agree with the saying " an ounce of handling is worth a pound of horsepower" but, at the end of the day, regardless of how much people try to convince themselves and others that it dosent matter, straight line squirt is the top gong for the majority. When someone at the lights next to you gives it a rev do you think " I'll wait till we get to the twisty stuff and show him how good my handling is " ?
Would you fork out for a brand new FPV if it had 160kW and got nailed in a straight line by a V6 commodore executive but in all other aspects was a fantastic car, handling, chassis dynamics, comfort ,interior , looks etc.
I didnt think so.
Im not saying power and straight line squirt are the only factors, but in most cases they are the most important ones

Originally Posted by ken2903

that would be true if everyone was 15 years old. I would hope that most people with the money to spend on these cars had more sense that to ignore everything other than straight line speed. (edit: and power figures as well for that matter)
i know there are people like that, but i dont think they are the norm.

[futura]

I think FPV performance are 12 months too late! FPV should of released the 302KW boss engine when Holden first released the E-series 307kw HSV. It took almost one year in poor sales not to mention enbarrassing accelerating times of the boss 290 for FPV to finally wake up. Furthermore, if it wasnt for the typhoon F6, FPV would be close to closing it doors. Lets hope that the orion GT lives up to the legend name.

[sleekism]

I think BOSS 302 is a brilliant idea.

IMO the Boss 302 mustang was the best one of the classic mustang era going against the trend of making big block 13 second understeering pigs.

I'm sure Ford can easily make more than 302 kw out out the BOSS but BOSS 302 sounds good.

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by shepv8

I guess all the 15 year olds who think like that and have the money are buying HSV's then...mate, I agree with the saying " an ounce of handling is worth a pound of horsepower" but, at the end of the day, regardless of how much people try to convince themselves and others that it dosent matter, straight line squirt is the top gong for the majority. When someone at the lights next to you gives it a rev do you think " I'll wait till we get to the twisty stuff and show him how good my handling is " ?
Would you fork out for a brand new FPV if it had 160kW and got nailed in a straight line by a V6 commodore executive but in all other aspects was a fantastic car, handling, chassis dynamics, comfort ,interior , looks etc.
I didnt think so.
Im not saying power and straight line squirt are the only factors, but in most cases they are the most important ones

would you pay 60 or 70 thousand for a 360kw fpv that handled like crap, looked like a nissan tida, and had the chassis dynamics of a vn commodore?

i wouldn't buy a 160kw fpv but then i wouldn't buy a 360kw fpv or hsv but thats another matter.
i think you may have missed my point a bit. i think anyone that chooses between these two different brands of cars based 20kw or half a seconds difference in quarter mile times needs to grow up. if someone is really so concerned with power and speed surely they could find something faster with that much money.

EDIT: if thinking that hsv's sell better than fpv's just cause they are more powerfull gets you to sleep at night than sweet dreams mate

[manny_papa]

Originally Posted by ken2903

would you pay 60 or 70 thousand for a 360kw fpv that handled like crap, looked like a nissan tida, and had the chassis dynamics of a vn commodore?

i wouldn't buy a 160kw fpv but then i wouldn't buy a 360kw fpv or hsv but thats another matter.
i think you may have missed my point a bit. i think anyone that chooses between these two different brands of cars based 20kw or half a seconds difference in quarter mile times needs to grow up. if someone is really so concerned with power and speed surely they could find something faster with that much money.

i think people buy what they want, noone is going to change that or "grow up".

oh and i would take more power than handling thank you we live in australia! we love straights !

[peter_vod69]

There are plenty of performance options other than your sainted FPV, you know, stuff that handles as well.... I mean, would it be out of place for me to suggest that maybe FPV's biggest problem is the orphan of a V8 they have? All that weight high up at the front of the car does nothing for handling, and all that technology under the bonnet doesn't mean dick if it doesn't actually make the car better.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by shepv8

I guess all the 15 year olds who think like that and have the money are buying HSV's then...mate, I agree with the saying " an ounce of handling is worth a pound of horsepower" but, at the end of the day, regardless of how much people try to convince themselves and others that it dosent matter, straight line squirt is the top gong for the majority. When someone at the lights next to you gives it a rev do you think " I'll wait till we get to the twisty stuff and show him how good my handling is " ?
Would you fork out for a brand new FPV if it had 160kW and got nailed in a straight line by a V6 commodore executive but in all other aspects was a fantastic car, handling, chassis dynamics, comfort ,interior , looks etc.
I didnt think so.
Im not saying power and straight line squirt are the only factors, but in most cases they are the most important ones

And no I wouldnt buy one either but many do. As I have said somewhere else .... why do triple and then douple the people buy Corollas, Tida's, Camry's etc over HSV and FPV? It must be the KW's they produce to make them so attractive to the MAJORITY of the public. So FORD would say .... "Lets build a 385kw monster to beat Holden, sell them for $150k, sell 10 of them and we will make millions!"



| [/url] |

[peter_vod69]

Originally Posted by auslandau

And no I wouldnt buy one either but many do. As I have said somewhere else .... why do triple and then douple the people buy Corollas, Tida's, Camry's etc over HSV and FPV? It must be the KW's they produce to make them so attractive to the MAJORITY of the public. So FORD would say .... "Lets build a 385kw monster to beat Holden, sell them for $150k, sell 10 of them and we will make millions!"

If you want the source of Ford's marketing problems ref performance vehicles, just look at the number of bogans you see on the street every day wearing f***king HRT jackets. On the flipside, the people that could be spending that sort of coin are looking at more "polished" fare from BMW/Audi/Lexus/Merc etc.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by peter_vod69

If you want the source of Ford's marketing problems ref performance vehicles, just look at the number of bogans you see on the street every day wearing f***king HRT jackets. On the flipside, the people that could be spending that sort of coin are looking at more "polished" fare from BMW/Audi/Lexus/Merc etc.

Marketing isnt just KW's or we would all be driving 500 rwkw machines to the shops and pick up the kids! I agree, it is part the whole marketing thing including V8 super cars where Ford dominated for the 3 years previous but still didnt win in car sales.

Toyota didn't become number 1 in Aus/world market by building there super cars? To go one step further, There top of the range, quicker, better handling etc cars are even branded as a totally different car!!!!

AND 'those bogans' are NOT always the ones who will buy the brand new FPV or HRT cars ...... Car manufactuers dont make money selling EB' & VT's



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[sleekism]

FPV and HSV sell muscle cars which means HORSEPOWER counts!

David Flint in Tickford days went to graet lengths to convince the buying public that Falcons needed more handling not more power but alas that is Australian culture.

If Bathurst in the 70's had been won by little british imports not large capacity Australian grunters than it would have been a different story.
Remember Holden had given up on V8's and was convinced hot sixes were the future until Ford showed them otherwise.

Australia is a V8 culture though there is still some emphasis on handling.

Australians care about lap times around bathurst that is why small blocks are popular.

Americans care about the quarter mile that is why big blocks are popular.

Japs are a $3 litre culture that is why four bangers are popular.

Europeans are freaks thus Diesels are popular.

I would say IMO Australia has more of a rich history in sixes than V8's eg.

Toranas, Chargers, Tickford XR6, VL Turbo, Supercharged Commodore, XR6 Turbos but obviously there is still a large bunch of people who would rather tick the V8 box (for the sound if for nothing else)

[VICFPV]

Who can smell a HO coming in the not too distance future?

I think that the power war has started. They are using history just as an excuse to shift some stock. Its about time that ford have started to listen to their customers. Personally with all the recent spy photos of the Orion doing the their test runs I am not too keen on the body shape of the Orion FPVs.
I really think that the BA to BF Mk II body shape are the next generation Muscle Car compared to the what the old muscle cars we have now. I really can't see the Orion looking like a Tough Muscle Car like the Ba to Bf MkII will in the next 20 years or so. But this is another thread. Hold onto your BA and BF Gt
As Long As you can and As clean and original as you can. What was auction price of the GTHO PHASE 3 ? 700 K for a 5k car brand new. But there is a catch though the wait is 4 decades before you see this sort of coin for your car.

I personally like the sound of the 351 Orion though. I wonder when the historians at Ford will catch on to that ERA.

The reason I shelled out over 50k for a car is that I want something that has presence and is able to win some of the traffic lights olympics every now and then, is a pleasure to drive everyday and keeps you wanting to drive it often.
I did not look at the power figures or the quarter mile times my car was putting out in the magazines or at the strip to make my decision. So marketing had nothing to do with. It was purely what the car had going for it self when I test drove them including the opposition.

About time we start getting 12 second factory cars so we can keep up with our yankee brothers I believe they are in the 11's now. The manufacturers are uping the weight to compensate the performance of the cars as they don't want the middled age population going splat on the roads from high powered cars.

As for my two cents in the power debate of the Orion.

The next F6 will surely have between 290 to 300 fwkw.
The next Xr6 Turbo and XR8 cars will try and keep up with the SS cars so expect them to have between 260 turbo and 280 to 290 XR8 fwkw. So where does this leave the Orion GT 320 PLUS WOULD BE MY GUESS.

[Rock ape]

The Orion GT needs to be more than 320kws . It has to last 5 years lol

[exrtnz]

I cant see it being more than 320kw in the GT but you never know they might get it right this time.

[JerseyVics]

you guys have a Cobra in Australia?

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by JerseyVics

you guys have a Cobra in Australia?

Yeap we did and we might again if the rumours are true. Here you go.

http://www.fastlane.com.au/News_Ford...5yrs110903.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Falcon_Cobra

Regards,
Dan

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by auslandau

AND 'those bogans' are NOT always the ones who will buy the brand new FPV or HRT cars ...... Car manufactuers dont make money selling EB' & VT's

When I bought my GT I had hoped the car was better prepared than regular Falcons (it wasn't), better finished (marginally), better build quality (it wasnt) and receive better service when I took it to Ford (I didnt). The fact it was also the worse built Ford I have ever owned was the icing on the cake.

To be fair FPV did ring me about my problems with the car, but by then I had sold it and moved to another brand. I'm not a bogan and would have happily kept buying Ford Performance cars, but expect more for my money than Fords attitude to quality and customer service.

They need to learn how to build a car better and get rid of the dealer network and start again. The dealers will kill Ford if they don't IMHO.

Dan

[shepv8]

Trouble is , neither of the 2 makes we are talking about ( FPV and HSV for those who forgot ) look like nissan tida's or have the chassis dynamics of a vn commodore. They both handle well, brake well and are comfortable. The only way tests can find a superior vehicle in these areas is to take them to a race track and get proffessional drivers to ring their necks out. Now, what relevance does this have to Joe blow in his FPV or HSV. Does he have pride in his car because it is .5 seconds a lap quicker around winton racetrack???
Realistically no, but when the testers print in big letters on the cover of their magazines that one car wallops the other in a straight line, people love it.
Very few can fully test out the handling prowess of their FPV/HSV on a public road but its all too easy to find a straight stretch of road and give 2 cars a run against each other.
Its this "pride in the power" that see's HSV selling 4 times as many cars a month than FPV.
Ford needs magazine/press reports wailing about how good its cars are in a straight line compared with HSV's and we will start clawing back sales ( granted it wont happen overnight), and 302kW isnt going to be good enough to out muscle the Holden products.
Think of this, Holden are going to release a new limited run GTS with a 7 litre 385kW motor that will handle good and more importantly clean everything up in a straight line...... what are Ford doing? A " new " limited edition model to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the almighty GT, the car that started the Aussie muscle car scene. What makes this limited edition model so special????
Answer= A new stripe kit and some special shock absorbers. YEEEHAAAA
I wonder why HSV are kicking Fords a@$e.

HSV build the cars their owners and fans want. FPV/Ford build what they thought people should have had 8 years ago.

Originally Posted by ken2903

would you pay 60 or 70 thousand for a 360kw fpv that

handled like crap, looked like a nissan tida, and had the chassis dynamics of a vn commodore?

i wouldn't buy a 160kw fpv but then i wouldn't buy a 360kw fpv or hsv but thats another matter.
i think you may have missed my point a bit. i think anyone that chooses between these two different brands of cars based 20kw or half a seconds difference in quarter mile times needs to grow up. if someone is really so concerned with power and speed surely they could find something faster with that much money.

EDIT: if thinking that hsv's sell better than fpv's just cause they are more powerfull gets you to sleep at night than sweet dreams mate

[Auslandau]

...........could someone please explain why Corolla, and Toyota for that matter is number one is OZ? If they (Toyota) built a HVS/FPV equivilent, would they double or triple there sales and so why arent they building these cars?

I would love to see a 400 kw GT PHO but 99.1% of new car buyers wont buy one ...... Can just see the marketing team approaching the bean counters at Ford saying, "Lets build a HSV killer ...... we will loose millions but boy, wont it be fun!"



| [/url] |

[shepv8]

Originally Posted by auslandau

...........could someone please explain why Corolla, and Toyota for that matter is number one is OZ? If they (Toyota) built a HVS/FPV equivilent, would they double or triple there sales and so why arent they building these cars?

I would love to see a 400 kw GT PHO but 99.1% of new car buyers wont buy one ...... Can just see the marketing team approaching the bean counters at Ford saying, "Lets build a HSV killer ...... we will loose millions but boy, wont it be fun!"

Thats the trouble, it would cost heaps to build a HSV beater, and Ford certainly dont have cash to throw around given the dreadfull financial situation they are in. We might think we are only 1 or 2 years behind HSV but the reality is we are 10-15 years behind. HSV started way back in 87 building the walkinshaw and their susequent models were commodore executives with tacky body kits and rims. It took them 20 years to refine their product and more importantly , to establish the cult status it now enjoys among motorists/car enthusiasts. Ford has had a number of attempts, Tickford, FTE ,FPV , but until the BA range, has struggled to capture that boy racer appeal HSV has a stronghold on .And name me 1 model since the EB XR8 back in 92 that out gunned the HSV cars. Not in handling but outright straight line grunt. The typhoon, maybe?
Ford wont enjoy HSV style success until it builds a quicker car. Its that simple

[RS500]

Originally Posted by Falcon Freak

Well said. Not only did the 7 litre kill the 24 hour race but it also killed the PROCAR category. But I digress.

How much more torque will the Boss engines produce???

FF

PROCAR closed down due to Ross Palmer the owner/funder/organiser becoming VERY ill and couldn't continue running it. No one else was willing to put the time ect in and it simply closed doors.

I have to agre with most of teh posts here. FPV seems to believe that a "special edition" badge will sell some units. Personally the R-Spec 40th edition looks like SH!T.

spend some money dropping the weight not on some cheap stickers. Look at BMW's carbon fibre roof that was done to lower the weight (and it looks sexy), yes its expensive, but who wants to drive a 2 tonne sports car????

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by shepv8

.And name me 1 model since the EB XR8 back in 92 that out gunned the HSV cars.

Ford's BA XR8 was quicker and had the same power as the HSV Clubsport in early 2003 didn't it ? The FPV cars were clearly better.

It scared the Sh!t out of HSV and they've been upping their power ever since. HSV HAS to p!ss higher than FPV don't they ?

They haven't had any real competition until recently from FPV, and they were outsold until the E series was released. If FPV do a std GT that is quicker and had more power than the equivalent HSV, HSV will just put a bigger motor in their car.

Where will it stop ?

[RS500]

Where will it stop ?

Government restrictions? they seem to want to control everything else. Why not put a limit on power instead of just lookoing into fitting speed limiters in cars

FPV could always transplant the Mustang GT500 motor in a falcon ---- or just bring the GT500 Stang over here!

[shepv8]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Ford's BA XR8 was quicker and had the same power as the HSV Clubsport in early 2003 didn't it ? The FPV cars were clearly better.

It scared the Sh!t out of HSV and they've been upping their power ever since. HSV HAS to p!ss higher than FPV don't they ?

They haven't had any real competition until recently from FPV, and they were outsold until the E series was released. If FPV do a std GT that is quicker and had more power than the equivalent HSV, HSV will just put a bigger motor in their car.

Where will it stop ?

I didnt think it was quicker than the clubbie, but, I may well be wrong. Keep in mind the clubsport was about 120kgs lighter than the XR8. You're right, when the BA series came out it trumped holden and was a better vehicle ( just) for a few years. But good old Ford thought " we've done enough, lets kick back and ride this money train ", trouble was, holden/hsv continued to improve and refine their models and then release their new wiz bang VE which proceeded to destroy anything the blue oval had.
You're right, holden will just keep putting bigger more powerfull motors in to match ford but whats the alternative? Keep letting HSV outsell us , all the time increasing their market share while ford slowly goes under. We may as well take the glory ( and the sales ) while the opportunity is there, before the FPV range turns into a responsible maker of ford fiesta's with a really original stripe package on them.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by RS500

spend some money dropping the weight not on some cheap stickers. Look at BMW's carbon fibre roof that was done to lower the weight (and it looks sexy), yes its expensive, but who wants to drive a 2 tonne sports car????

Problem is, the Falcon isn't a sports car. Never was. Always has been a 4 door family sedan. Period. To drop weight, serious weight (as in 100kg+), you have to do one of three things:

1./ Use high cost materials (aluminium, carbon fibre, titanium)
2./ Cust back on fixtures & fittings (soundproofing, electrical gizmos etc)
3./ Reduce structural rigidity

Falcon's low volumes relative to world standards make Option 1 not a fiscally viable alternative. Remember folks, most Falcons are sold as XT company cars, or Futura models so that mum and dad can take the kids driving on the weekend. To tool up special lightweight materials for a few thousand FPVs every year will never add up from a $$$ perspective.

Option No 2 is tough as well. Everyone wants more airbags, in-dash CD players, less noise, climate control, leather seats etc. What do you do? Put manual window wipers in a $60K car?

Option No 3 was perfected by Holden for years. Good god my old man's 1998 Clubsport has only 185kw yet goes like a cut cat. Why? Because it has the structural integrity of a souffle. Weighs bugger all. Great from going from 0-100kms, but if you're in a prang, good luck......

If we want bigger and faster, we'll probably get heavier as well. Unless you want to pay another $20K per car that is. Holden has a more 'street friendly' motor that performs better on the street when you're on and off the throttle in the real world, unlike a dyno.

FPV, given its limites budget and development resources, ideally needs to source a new 'crate' motor, just like HSV have done. Maybe the "hurricane" engine will be our salvation. Maybe not.

[Noddy]

Originally Posted by shepv8

And name me 1 model since the EB XR8 back in 92 that out gunned the HSV cars. Not in handling but outright straight line grunt. The typhoon, maybe?

I could be incorrect but I’m pretty sure the manual T3 had the wood over the 255kw/475nm clubsport in a straight line back in its day. Seem to remember a couple of comparo's, one in Motor with a green T3 and a yellow clubby, anyone else remember this? Please ignore the fact I own one of these, I’m not trying to skite, the question was asked.

On another note i was lucky enough to have the opportunity to use company vehicles on the certain weekends or whenever the boss was out of town. Lucky for me the boss was a Ford nut and always upgraded to the latest XR whenever they were released. The EB XR6 an EF XR6 in manual form will always stick in my memory has fantastic driver’s car, love the EB XR6.

[shepv8]

Originally Posted by Brent

Problem is, the Falcon isn't a sports car. Never was. Always has been a 4 door family sedan. Period. To drop weight, serious weight (as in 100kg+), you have to do one of three things:

1./ Use high cost materials (aluminium, carbon fibre, titanium)
2./ Cust back on fixtures & fittings (soundproofing, electrical gizmos etc)
3./ Reduce structural rigidity

Falcon's low volumes relative to world standards make Option 1 not a fiscally viable alternative. Remember folks, most Falcons are sold as XT company cars, or Futura models so that mum and dad can take the kids driving on the weekend. To tool up special lightweight materials for a few thousand FPVs every year will never add up from a $$$ perspective.

Option No 2 is tough as well. Everyone wants more airbags, in-dash CD players, less noise, climate control, leather seats etc. What do you do? Put manual window wipers in a $60K car?

Option No 3 was perfected by Holden for years. Good god my old man's 1998 Clubsport has only 185kw yet goes like a cut cat. Why? Because it has the structural integrity of a souffle. Weighs bugger all. Great from going from 0-100kms, but if you're in a prang, good luck......

If we want bigger and faster, we'll probably get heavier as well. Unless you want to pay another $20K per car that is. Holden has a more 'street friendly' motor that performs better on the street when you're on and off the throttle in the real world, unlike a dyno.

FPV, given its limites budget and development resources, ideally needs to source a new 'crate' motor, just like HSV have done. Maybe the "hurricane" engine will be our salvation. Maybe not.

Well said mate.
The falcon isnt a sports car, but neither is commodore. Yet Holden manage to get the quicker ( read : more appealing ) car out there 95% of the time.
The Falcons woes are all in the engine bay. Until the VE was released every ford model right back to the EBXR6 was a better handler than its holden counterpart. Ford have always held the edge in chassis/suspension performance.
Its that damn heavy Boss motor. Those massive heads on it sit way up in the engine bay and even with fords excellent suspension, the front end wants to tip over itself. On paper , people see 260-290kW and 500+ Nm and think its a barnstormer until they realise there is nothing but fluff under 3500rpm.
Yeah, the earlier HSV's bodies were shite, but australia bought them by the truckload and now, HSV is able to build cars like the VE series that are better than fords in all areas.
Modern power windows arent any heavier than manual wind up mechanisms anyway so I dont think in the cabin is going to provide any weight loss Like you said , carbon fibre and all that mega expensive high tech material wont be on a cost effective falcon.
I agree about the crate motor idea. Its certainly working for holden/HSV at the moment as it has since the gen 3 first started to appear in their cars. Trouble is, I dont know of a ford crate motor that would suit the falcon. The high tech route is the right option,I just think they chose the wrong motor.
The 3V SOHC per bank motor would have done a better job, not with 220kW though. It would also need a capacity of near enough to 6 litres now to be competetive and the more alloy in that massive donk, the better. Thats really where the easist weight will be saved and will also sharpen up that doughy front end.
The falcons we are talking about XR8's, GT's are a small seller ,numbers wise to the overall ford picture but , they make such an impact on peoples perception of the brand that if they arent seen to be the GUN THING, neither do the lower spec vehicles in the range. HSV/Holden certainly understand this. How many young guys want a V6 commodore with mags, lowered and bodykit. They are the people who in 10-15 years will be buying the $60 000-$80 000 HSV's and already their brand loyalties have been decided....

[shepv8]

Originally Posted by Noddy

I could be incorrect but I’m pretty sure the manual T3 had the wood over the 255kw/475nm clubsport in a straight line back in its day. Seem to remember a couple of comparo's, one in Motor with a green T3 and a yellow clubby, anyone else remember this? Please ignore the fact I own one of these, I’m not trying to skite, the question was asked.

On another note i was lucky enough to have the opportunity to use company vehicles on the certain weekends or whenever the boss was out of town. Lucky for me the boss was a Ford nut and always upgraded to the latest XR whenever they were released. The EB XR6 an EF XR6 in manual form will always stick in my memory has fantastic driver’s car, love the EB XR6.

Yeah, there were a couple of cars. I think maybe the EL XR8 series 2 may have been quicker than the SS commodore at the time but not 100%. Trouble is how many T3's sold compared to clubbies. By that stage HSV had its image established whereas ford was still mucking around. T3 was an awesome car though, especially the 5.6 stroker which the press raved about as one of the best aussie muscle car engines ever. We need that good press regularly about every model though, not just here and there,