Not good news for the Australian automotive industry

[SSBUB]

Originally Posted by chich

Believe it or not other industries exist too..

Speakingof M3's, wouldnt happen to be in the market for one would ya? lol

[Ruger]

only the yuppies believe the germans are excelent quality. these are the same people that call them self metrosexual.

[Mutley]

Originally Posted by chich

Honda Accord Euro and Subaru Liberty come to mind. As Toyota's sales prove on a global scale time and time again, 99% of new car buyers don't give a rats if the Falcadorres are capable of 13's off the showroom floor.



$150K in Australia - not in the rest of the world. An M3 for example sells here in Australia for $140K where in the States it sells for the equivalent of $65K Aussie. Here's a rhetorical question for you.. If it was a level playing field (0% luxury car tax and 0% tariffs) which would you buy - a falcon/commodore or an M3?

Chich, I have first hand experience of BMW reliability. My Auntie, now in her late 70's who I lived with brought a BMW new 7 years ago. At 78,000kms it destroyed the gearbox. My Auntie, to this day swears by the bible that no-one else has driven it other than her and her BMW authorised dealer, and she has never exceeded 100km/hr.

How do you explain the M3's oil consumption problems or engine knock when cold? Probably crap Australian oil come to think about it?

And by the way, I wasn't aware that the Subaru or Honda was a 13 second car. I know ford Australia has a couple of models that are.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by Mutley

What criteria do you base your 'informed' appreciation of quality on. Coming from the bush, the reliability of Australian built sedans is equal to, if not better than imported cars.

You pedal a tired argument indeed. I've listened to arguments about how European quality exceeds Australian quality for over thirty years. Its just funny how you don't see any surviving 30 year old European specials that have had a hard life, but I don't think too many Australian cars of that era have escaped harsher treatment.

Perhaps if European cars were run new at the drags every weekend with a 50 - 200hp boost, left outside in the weather, flogged down gravel roads, used as hire cars or police cars, spent Saturday nights at illegal street drags instead of the under cover opera car park or their days at a suburban coles or woolies carpark instead of a heated carpark underneath the boardroom, they may look a little worse for wear after a couple of years!

I think if you look a little deeper into what constitutes quality, our cars are not as bad as you make out.

Well said Mutley. Some people just like to criticize anything that is Australian made. Probably the same people that buy californian oranges rather than Aussie oranges, if you get my drift.

Cheers.

[Ruger]

and the japanese leather is utter rubbish. ill give that to the euros you actually get the leather smell (whether its an air freshener or not lol)
the accord is not so flash ill tell you that much and mercedes tend to fall apart (did i mention are bland and age really badly?).
bmw arent crash hot in build quality either.they do have a different little more solid feel to them i wouldnt call it better than anyone else though just because they feel that way dont mean they are actually solid.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by Mutley

Chich, I have first hand experience of BMW reliability. My Auntie, now in her late 70's who I lived with brought a BMW new 7 years ago. At 78,000kms it destroyed the gearbox. My Auntie, to this day swears by the bible that no-one else has driven it other than her and her BMW authorised dealer, and she has never exceeded 100km/hr.

How do you explain the M3's oil consumption problems or engine knock when cold? Probably crap Australian oil come to think about it?

And by the way, I wasn't aware that the Subaru or Honda was a 13 second car. I know ford Australia has a couple of models that are.

My sister had a 7 series BMW bought brand new in, I think, about 92?? Anyhow, after 12 months of it being in the workshop every week or two with faults, she bought a Land cruiser. Euro quality pffft.

[lowriding]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

BMW and Merc quality is terrible, people think you spend that much and its from Germany its got to be good, but they are very far from that.

I certainly wouldn't say terrible! they use a high grade of materials and quality manufacturing processes generally, something we are very quickly matching here in Australia however .
but i do agree with you ,if anyone thinks BMW / MB et al are heads and shoulders above OR are immune from QA issues they have rocks in their head .

[Ruger]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Well said Mutley. Some people just like to criticize anything that is Australian made. Probably the same people that buy californian oranges rather than Aussie oranges, if you get my drift.

Cheers.

we shouldnt criticise these people though its in bad taste. if people arent as fortunate as others and have a common sense defficiency sindrome we shouldnt pick on them. on the other hand ****'em ing_sm

Even the F1 paddle shift version of the Ferrari 355 have problems. A car is a car and if mis treated will die.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by lowriding

I certainly wouldn't say terrible! they use a high grade of materials and quality manufacturing processes generally, something we are very quickly matching here in Australia however .
but i do agree with you ,if anyone thinks BMW / MB et al are heads and shoulders above OR are immune from QA issues they have rocks in their head .

Very true, I work with a guy that bought a 3XX whatever BMW about 6 months ago. It has already been shipped to Adelaide (at his expence) for cabin rattles.... Euro quality pfffft.

[Bucket]

I saw on the weekend in the Paper that Holden have already released a "special edition" Commodore with Extra added features...Killing the resale of a new car so soon??

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by lowriding

Silly article imo .That story doesnt say much at all , only compares sales of one month against sales of the first month of VT in 1997. I dont think anyone was expecting the market share to jump back to what it was 10 years ago !

Well the Aussie car industry was expecting this as this has been the trend.

My mate is one of the warranty claim officers for Daimler Chrysler and it's funny how many quality issues these cars actually have. A lot are mechanical issues, oh and don't go near a A-class. One of the C-class cars he had for the weekend ate his CD in the 6-cd changer. While it is put together very well I wasn't that impressed as I'd rather change cars more regularly than pay the extra premium so the interior looks put together slightly better.

Bucket - the special edition is to combat the BFII. Holden announced the special edition when the VE was released.

[XR Martin]

I remember reading a story of a 7 series BMW locking the driver inside and disabling the electrics. He told people on the outside to smash the window so he could get out, but 7-series BMWs have double glazed laminated side windows and it took them something like 15mins to bust through it :

Also the M3s were recalled to drop their Rev limit by 500rpm, because they were rebuilding too many engines in the US.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by Bucket

I saw on the weekend in the Paper that Holden have already released a "special edition" Commodore with Extra added features...Killing the resale of a new car so soon??

Would that be the commodore V ?

[Smoke Pursuit]

Commodore V isnt a special edition i dont think??

I thougth they were always going to have it, basically its the Private buyers Omega, where as the standard Omega is pointed towards fleet companies.

[colossus]

Well its hardly a surprise - year after year of some dodgy quality from the Aussie car makers (can you actually buy a BA/BF Falcon that dosn't have handbrake issues for instance???) and resale thats down the toilet - no wonder private buyers have deserted in droves.

Plenty of people on this forum, myself included, have put the money down for a new Falcon (2 for me in the last 4 years) and despite recieving what is essentially an awesome car to drive, it is unfortunatley plagued by minor quality issues and non-existant resale. People on here can harp on and on about how euro and jap's are no better (these would be the same people who mostly work for Ford or Holden) but I will believe my own experiences, which in 2 new jap cars for my wife, none have been back to the dealer at all except for scheduled services.

I will buy probably buy another Falcon (cheap from Auction) as I simply just like them, but never a new one again, until quality and resale improve.

And anyway why should I care if Ford/Holden go under? They are just another two giant multinational companies that care for nothing but their own profits. You make it sound like we all owe them something... (harsh but true).

[Homer1]

I agree. When I had my AU XR6, it was a great fun car to drive, but I always had the feeling it was slapped together on a Friday night as the interior trim parts came loose one by one. I also did have a handbrake problem and a clunking diff. What I also didn't like about it was that Ford and Holden update thier cars too frequently compared to the Euros and Japs. A newer or updated model would come out as soon as 12-18 mths after you buy one, and thats why I think the resale on these cars is rubbish. The Euros and Japs will usually only give thier cars a minor facelift or update once in a 7 year lifecycle.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by colossus

And anyway why should I care if Ford/Holden go under? They are just another two giant multinational companies that care for nothing but their own profits. You make it sound like we all owe them something... (harsh but true).

How many people do Honda/BMW/Mercedes (or any other manufacturer who just imports) employ locally? No where near what Ford and Holden do. I dont know the true figure, but directly and indirectly its probably something like 50,000 people? Maybe more (including Toyota and Mitsu)

Thats why we should have some loyalty, they are atleast willing to employ local people.

[Bud Bud]

I can't believe that people have written off the VE because of that article. While the VE may not be for everone, it is not a dog either. People have just plain and simply forgotten what was happening around the release of the VT.

Firstly most Australians were absolutely rocked by a massive recession (that we had to have) only 5–7 years before and before that and people having to except unprecedented high interest rates topping 17.5% on their devaluing properties over that decade before the VT was released. Nobody made any real money through the earlier 90’s and many many business’s failed to survive at all.

The VT arrived as interest rates tumbled to 30 year lows and businesses were beginning to reinvest again after ten years of battling negative growth and high unemployment.

People began to spend again and spend up big they did. Interest rates remained low, fuel was well under $20 US a barrel and actually bottoming out at $11 US a barrel before Y2K, and real estate doubled and then tripled in no time.

Today interest rates are still low however people have borrowed up big and indeed mortgaged themselves up to their eyeballs, fuel is around (and has been well over) $60 US a barrel and uncertainty still surrounds the globe (in an oil sense that is). We are definitely heading in to a bit of an economic lull at the moment, especially with interest rates on the creep.

Secondly like it or lump it Ford also gave up any real sales contest to the VT when they released the AU. If the AU did look like the BA from the start and not necessarily with the BA mechanicals, the VT may not have been so popular either.

I still think the VE will be a success measured by todays standards (not by 90’s standards). They have also started a successful export program as well. Their sales will no longer just rely on the local market. Ford need to look much closer at this. I fear it soon could be Ford trying to survive in this market until the Orion arrives and even then, I for one do not know how Ford will survive selling the Orion just to us only either.

How many here can remember the last 12 months of the EL before the AU?

[robjh80]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Where are these much better Japanese cars? Where can you get a V8 or Turbo 6 large RWD sedan that runs 13s from Japan for $45k? Matter of fact you cant even get anything like it from Japan.
Where in the World can you get this? If you want similar from Europe you'd have to spend $150k.

But that's just the issue isn't it, we pay 45k for a standard family sedan, aka Commi or Falcon with suspect quality etc whereas the standard family sedan in Europe is the very same 150k one that "Joe Public" cannot possibly afford here, compare the 2.....Falcon/Commi vs Merc/BMW.....it's a tough one.

[XR Martin]

Merc and BMW prices in Europe are not alot cheaper than here. An XR6T or SS competitor, say a BMW 550 is $115k in the UK + carbon tax.
Even a base model 520 Diesel, is still $65k + tax

Its only in the US you can get cheap cars across the whole spectrum.

[pb02]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

BMW and Merc quality is terrible, people think you spend that much and its from Germany its got to be good, but they are very far from that.

I agree. In the 80's and early to mid 90's they where at the front in terms of quality and reliability. Now most parts are outsourced so they don't have a tight control on the quality. You would be surprised at the amount of quality issues regarding current and late model european cars (with a few exceptions).

[NA XR6]

Originally Posted by puts99

Lets just hope people think the VE is ugly

What do you mean think :

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by Mutley

What criteria do you base your 'informed' appreciation of quality on. Coming from the bush, the reliability of Australian built sedans is equal to, if not better than imported cars.

You pedal a tired argument indeed. I've listened to arguments about how European quality exceeds Australian quality for over thirty years. Its just funny how you don't see any surviving 30 year old European specials that have had a hard life, but I don't think too many Australian cars of that era have escaped harsher treatment.

Perhaps if European cars were run new at the drags every weekend with a 50 - 200hp boost, left outside in the weather, flogged down gravel roads, used as hire cars or police cars, spent Saturday nights at illegal street drags instead of the under cover opera car park or their days at a suburban coles or woolies carpark instead of a heated carpark underneath the boardroom, they may look a little worse for wear after a couple of years!

I think if you look a little deeper into what constitutes quality, our cars are not as bad as you make out.

Sorry for being O/T but this seemed very, very true ...

You also forgot serviced by the cheapest mechanic only when the owner feels like it, run on the cheapest fuel, eventually converted to run on LPG, etc, etc, etc ...

The fact that we still see so many VN/EAs is a testament to Aussie cars being over-engineered in areas which count in THIS country .. where you can drive for hours-and-hours without seeing another person. If the door trims rattle or your leather stiching is cr@p this won't leave you stranded ..

[Neeek]

This isn't much of a surprise, is it? If Ford, Holden or indeed any manufacturer keeps chruning out cars with large engines, it's no wonder they're not going to get loads of sales. Blindingly obvious, really.

I suspect that when the VE was in development, petrol prices weren't predicted to skyrocket the way they have. And at that stage, it was probably too late to make any changes to the car - they'd passed the point of no return after investing so much money... this would've been quite a few years ago now.

I think this is one of the many reasons Ford and GMH are in so much trouble - they're greedy, they want a hugely impressive car to shout about (and beat the rivals) and then they stare at their shoes when it doesn't sell because of factors beyond their control, such as the high cost of crude. Poor planning and a lack of insight. Take a look at the Japanese manufacturers for lessons in how to make the business profitable - I don't think any of them are in the red because they build cars that the motoring public actually want.

We just downgraded our car to a smaller one, for a varity of reasons, not all of which are linked to the price at the bowser. We could've got ourselves a BA Falcon XT or something equally big, but instead chose a little Mazda with a small engine that's well built, well equipped and good fun to drive. It does what the Falcon/Commodore would do, apart from towing 2-tons, and it will cost us less long-term. Bit of a no-brainer, really.

And my household isn't unique... the sooner Ford/GMH start listening to what people want, the more profitable they'll become and as a result we'll get the cars we actually need to buy, rather than the ones we just want.

[Ringo]

From a fleet perspective a couple of things stand out in that article.

What is not mentioned is now anyone doing a novated lease has one price applied regardless of what discount the company they work for is entitled to for tool-of-trade cars. You used to be able to achieve massive discounts for yourself levering off your employer discount - alas the loophole is no longer.

Falcadores, 380's and other 6 cyl all have 50% (or less) residuals after 3 years (look at them in the back of wheels mag) and it makes up the majority of cost in a lease.

Trying to improve resale will ensure values in two/three/four years are a bit better which will help reduce the whole of life cost is a good thing. This is why certain cars that are more expensive to buy are cheaper to lease - Up -spec Subaru Forrester, Liberty as examples.

Retail buyers help to sure up a models resale value because they don't flood the market with 3/4 year old models and hold onto them for a little longer on average. Its a simple supply and demand equation. This is why non fleet cars hold their value so much better than typical fleet models - think mazda's, think subaru, think honda - get my drift?

Ford will have to follow suit eventually but have trouble pulling back discounts they gave to anyone in the AU days and they can't afford the pain. Plus they have E-gas which is going great guns - makes up 21% of production (yes nearly as many as XR models) and is now acheiving higher resale values than the ULP models. It is cheaper to lease one than and ULP version which has many companies looking closely at them - it could end up being Ford's long term saviour.

So Camry have increased in sales and Omega has dropped in sales - is anyone surprised ?

[Bucket]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

Would that be the commodore V ?

No, this isnt the "V" Edition of the Car slick...this is something more like the Lumina...It's getting a bit stupid if you ask me...Special editions on top of their special editions.

[Ringo]

PS used to be a BMW mechanic and I can tell you that plenty of stuff goes wrong with them as well.

Every manufacturer has their own unique problems. There was a time when hundreds of BMW 6 cylinders had leaking headgaskets in late 90's. Engine oil sludging was another issue. Its the manufactures tolence level of these issues before they decide its an issue that must be addressed.

It is also the dealers attitude to the product, to take on driver issues and solve them and take pride in the work they do....I think it the biggest opportunity for improvement for both Ford and Holden - their dealers present a real weakness

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by Bucket

No, this isnt the "V" Edition of the Car slick...this is something more like the Lumina...It's getting a bit stupid if you ask me...Special editions on top of their special editions.

Yeah it's a bit early.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Ruger

these are the same people that call them self metrosexual.

Are these people that only have sex in cities?:

[aualright]

Originally Posted by Neeek

We just downgraded our car to a smaller one, for a varity of reasons, not all of which are linked to the price at the bowser. We could've got ourselves a BA Falcon XT or something equally big, but instead chose a little Mazda with a small engine that's well built, well equipped and good fun to drive. It does what the Falcon/Commodore would do, apart from towing 2-tons, and it will cost us less long-term. Bit of a no-brainer, really.

And my household isn't unique... the sooner Ford/GMH start listening to what people want, the more profitable they'll become and as a result we'll get the cars we actually need to buy, rather than the ones we just want.

Try putting 2 kids in the back seat safely (that is...plenty of room between the front and back seats), then fitting in all the prams, etc in the boot of your Mazda.

Try overtaking safely with such a load in the Mazda when going up a hill on the F2 from Sydney to Newcastle. Let's hope the dollars you are saving stack up becasue your engine torque won't.

What I need to buy is certainly different from you - maybe being a father of 2 I'm in the minority.

The last time Holden reacted to an oil crisis the horrible VB Commodore was born and Ford dropped their V8's...this is not a new phenomenon.

Lastly, how come no-one mentions the Malaysian built Accord when talking about 'superior Japanese car quality'.

BTW...my wife's 02 Lexus IS200 burns oil quicker than it should, as does my neighbour's V6 Avalon. My Falcon is far from perfect, but also far from poor quality as has been suggested.

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