What the hell can be done.....

[Panda]

It has been suggested a couple of times to increase the age at which you can get your license - but I actually think it should be reduced.

Not driving on the roads as such, but supervised driving on tracks, skid pans, dirt roads etc. How many times have you heard the 'when I was a boy' stories from your parents etc where they were driving the tractor when they were 15. Then they were allowed to move onto the old paddock basher and cut up in it. You need to do that stuff to lean how to control a skid, oversteer, understeer etc.

You cannot expect kids to know how to control an out of control vehicle if they have never experienced it before. It is like expecting somebody to go to a skidpan and control it perfectly the first time they try.

Practice, practice, practice - it is the only way to learn. And because we are talking about controlling an out of control vehicle, I would prefer it is not practiced on the roads.

Panda

[OldManGhia]

When I got my Ps some 25 years ago you didn't get any points. One mistake and it was back to your Ls. Now they get a couple of points can make a mistake and get away with it. The powers that be wont make the necessary changes because they can only think about their prospects of winning the next election. Any voter backlash and they could lose, mean while younger drivers continue to die.

Education must be part of the licensing system, even for older drivers who are habitual offenders. Advance driver courses must be made part of getting your licence. I recently wrote to a four MPs here in NSW of which only two bothered to reply and one reply was only an acknowledgement of receiving the letter. in the letter I suggested the following.

1. Leave the current Learner situation as is except for limiting the no. of passengers to two.
2. Once you get your Ps you don't get any points, would be limited to 80kms/h, restricted from driving on highways except for the purpose of driving to and from work, limited to two passengers and be required to hold your red Ps for one year min. Also if you make a mistake and lose your licence you would need to complete 20 hours on a log book on your Ls before getting your red Ps again.
3. To get your green Ps you would need to complete an Advanced drivers course, first aid course and pass the current test. Once on green Ps most restrictions would be lifted. You get/or can lose upto 4 points before losing your licence, would still be retricted to 2 passengers. If you lost your licence during the two years on green Ps you go back to your Ls and 20 hours o the log book, red Ps etc.
4. Once on your full licence and for any driver on a full licence any loss of licence would mean back to yours Ls and 20 hours on the log book , an advance drivers course but instead of going on red Ps it would be back to green Ps.

This sounds harsh and may be diffucult for some, but once a driver realises there are consequences then maybe they will wise up. Knowing young blokes (I have one) they will still take risks and show off, but making it more difficult to get a licence in the first place can only help. I also believe that education should start while they are at school.

[Racecraft]

Originally Posted by Panda

Practice, practice, practice - it is the only way to learn. And because we are talking about controlling an out of control vehicle, I would prefer it is not practiced on the roads.

Panda

while I agree, driving training, skid pans and drag strips are too safe to teach you. They are too controlled with run off areas but have no unknowns/surprises, no off camber corners with slippery line markings and no pot holes, gutters or the music blaring with 3 mates chatting away to you etc.. Add to that that 99% of participants that venture into driver training, track days and the like also have the common sense to make sure their ride is upto the task.. No bald'ish tyres, even tyre pressures and the like. And this is where the problem lies imho.. Some people, not just p platers are well educated in car control and co-ordinated enough to drive very well under controlled circumstances but add a few variables in and accidents happen :(

My solution:- Driver training needs to be more real world.. The tracks that you are trained on should mimic where the real world accidents happen, a blind corner with objects (water based painted foam tress, oil spills on line markings, foam gutters, foam cars coming out of give way signs, even perhaps a slow leaking rear tyre etc.. I know logistically it would be hard and costly, but send your average driver out into a situation filled adventure and watch their attitude and approach to driving change when their car comes back covered in paint and foam

[jonbays]

Originally Posted by Racecraft

while I agree, driving training, skid pans and drag strips are too safe to teach you. They are too controlled with run off areas but have no unknowns/surprises, no off camber corners with slippery line markings and no pot holes, gutters or the music blaring with 3 mates chatting away to you etc.. Add to that that 99% of participants that venture into driver training, track days and the like also have the common sense to make sure their ride is upto the task.. No bald'ish tyres, even tyre pressures and the like. And this is where the problem lies imho.. Some people, not just p platers are well educated in car control and co-ordinated enough to drive very well under controlled circumstances but add a few variables in and accidents happen :(

My solution:- Driver training needs to be more real world.. The tracks that you are trained on should mimic where the real world accidents happen, a blind corner with objects (water based painted foam tress, oil spills on line markings, foam gutters, foam cars coming out of give way signs, even perhaps a slow leaking rear tyre etc.. I know logistically it would be hard and costly, but send your average driver out into a situation filled adventure and watch their attitude and approach to driving change when their car comes back covered in paint and foam

I like the idea but you know statisticly advanced driver training has been proven NOT to work?

Thats right the stats suggest advanced driver training leads to overconfidnece and no reduction in post training accident rates!

Making it more real world may be the answer.

[nitroman]

I think we can all agree that more training can only be a good thing, the tough bit will be convincing money and vote counting government authorities that funding training programs will be a good thing (for them of course). They started the stay upright program for motorbikes years ago that would have saved many lives, why not for cars?

[jonbays]

Well most of us on the forum vote I guess and that doesn't seem like it makes a difference to the pollies as we are not as politically organised as the gay whale crusdaer types.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

Money shouldn’t be an excuse for street racing or hooning, when it’s only the price of a carton of beer.
Consider what some spend on there cars, a night out at a club.
$20 for fuel, plus entry is a reasonably priced nights entertainment.

Lucky every State isnt like Calder $65.

True, but my nearest track is Benaraby which is about 280km away.
The next closest is Willowbank which is about 400km away.
I can aford to travel that far but many young people can't so there is an "unofficial dragstrip" at Tuan than no one knows about except the security staff at the 24hr chip mill just up the road who call the police whenever they see headlights.

A lot of the problem really is video games and "2 fast 2 furious" style movies that tend to imply to young people that doing really silly things is cool and you never get hurt and even if you do you just press "restart" and you are all better again.

The licencing system up here is a joke. Learner drivers are taught to pass a test not control a motor vehicle. When I learned we used to go out into the bush and play at sliding etc because our cars were not powerful enough to spin the wheels on dry bitumen.

Maybe that is a possible but VERY unpopular solution. Limit new drivers to VERY underpowered vehicles.

Or better still:

The penalty for hooning is to have your licence endorsed "low power only" and restrict for a period of one or more years to 50kw/tonne manual only or whatever.
A large pink "H" plate must be displayed at all times. No excuses. If the only car in the family is a V8 or whatever then you WALK.
The penaly for breaching this is the same as unlicenced driving.

Driving in a wussmobile for a year will improve you skills significantly because you will have to learn to drive or you will never get anywhere.

[AWD Chaser]

I just got of my P's the other week, so now I'm not in the same branding boat as many others...

The best way to tackle this is driver education... I grew up on a farm too - riding and lossing control of bikes, etc... including rolling one farm quad....

Unfortunatley, Australia likes its big 6's and big 8's in family cars... There is already a power to weight ratio thingy in place in Victoria, which bans P platers driving I think, a BA (I6) or higher powered vehicle.... but, a Barina will still kill someone pretty easily at 140kph.... If you want to totally get rid of the problem, a GPS based licence with speed monitoring would be the best - think of the Movie "The 5th Element" with Bruce Willis, where it automatically takes points off his licence....

[robjh80]

"High Powered Cars + Peer Pressure + Limited Experience = Fatalities"

(1.) No young inexperienced driver should be allowed to drive anything over a normally aspirated non-modified 1600cc motor vehicle, must hold open licence for minimum of say 3 years before tiering up to the next level, say 2500cc etc etc. (you get the idea)

(2.) Curfew on young drivers, no P plate drivers allowed on the roads after say 11.00pm unless they have been allocated a restricted permit for verified reasons such as work requirements etc.

(3.) Passenger restrictions, P plate drivers can only be accompanied by a maximum of 1 passenger in the car at any time, that passenger must also be the holder of an open driving licence.

(4.) Zero Alchohol Limit for all drivers until they obtain an open licence.

(5.) Compulsory Accredited Driver Training Courses for all L and P plate drivers.

(6.) Compulsory six monthly medical checks by local GP's for all drivers regardless of age, GP's could sign off a standard form which all drivers need to carry with them in the vehicle for presentation to Police Officers as requested.

(7.) Compulsory six monthly warrant of fitness checks on all vehicles, as carried out in many overseas countries.....including NZ.

[Keepleft]

AU98C-Wagon wrote this day - When I got my Ps some 25 years ago you didn't get any points. One mistake and it was back to your Ls. Now they get a couple of points can make a mistake and get away with it.

MOST *important* traffic penalties wipe this out in one hit meaning nothing 'meaningful' has changed.

The powers that be wont make the necessary changes because they can only think about their prospects of winning the next election. Any voter backlash and they could lose, mean while younger drivers continue to die.

Not always, Clare Martins removal of what could have been a very safe implementation of (//) will see her party rightly lose office in two- three years time.

Education must be part of the licensing system, even for older drivers who are habitual offenders. Advance driver courses must be made part of getting your licence.

Forget 'advanced driver courses', that will NOT EVER HAPPEN, I promise you. What is being developed over these last three years is the National Driver Training Scheme, this is why the states are adopting SIMILAR graduated systems, L, P1, P2 with much harmonisation of key elements. We have discussed this all before here at forum. The emphasis is on the DEFENSIVE driver component.

I recently wrote to a four MPs here in NSW of which only two bothered to reply and one reply was only an acknowledgement of receiving the letter. in the letter I suggested the following.

MP's can receive hundreds of letters and advocacy per day AND have to deal with mountains of paper work from their agencies and parliamanetary counsel, your letter will have been read by a staffer and either actioned through the agency channels in some way, and even acknowledged and its overall 'direction' -logged; as to add to the mountains of paper leading to 'policy'.

1. Leave the current Learner situation as is except for limiting the no. of passengers to two.

I'll remind people again, that despite harmonisation, we ARE a nation of sovereign states, What applies in the Peoples Republic of Victoria or the Sunburnt state of QLD may not apply in WA or here NSW and so on.

2. Once you get your Ps you don't get any points,

Dealt with this in the top response, in relation to L category.

would be limited to 80kms/h, restricted from driving on highways except for the purpose of driving to and from work,

Completely unworkable and in gods name will NOT happen.

limited to two passengers

This IS a possibility for one P plate category, the P1. Again this will be 'states right'.

and be required to hold your red Ps for one year min.

This IS already a reality with P1 here in NSW and you will see it so in other states adopting RED P1, maximum license life 18 months.
Please read page 10 of this 2.92MB download.
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/...uh_english.pdf

Also if you make a mistake and lose your licence you would need to complete 20 hours on a log book on your Ls before getting your red Ps again.

The 'eduction' is done having lost the license for the offence in the first place, as far as I am aware most people know why they have lost their license, anything else in pointless agency intrusion. Most after this event tend not to do it again.

3. To get your green Ps you would need to complete an Advanced drivers course, first aid course and pass the current test. Once on green Ps most restrictions would be lifted. You get/or can lose upto 4 points before losing your licence, would still be retricted to 2 passengers. If you lost your licence during the two years on green Ps you go back to your Ls and 20 hours o the log book, red Ps etc.

Forget the Advanced course, again. In NSW you hold the P2 license a minimum 30 months and have 7 demerit point allowance. I should say you do not 'lose' demerit points, you 'gain' them.

You need really to make this a state based observation, seeing as how certain issues are different jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

4. Once on your full licence and for any driver on a full licence any loss of licence would mean back to yours Ls and 20 hours on the log book,

And this would achive what? What studies have you done or read to make this change worthwhile??

an advance drivers course but instead of going on red Ps it would be back to green Ps.

Will not happen, it is pointless to regress people, make remedial behavioural change yes, have them read the driver manual to refresh their knowledge, yes. At best, have them do a defensive driver course, maybe, but that can only be done IF it can be implemented equally Australia wide. If not, expect lawsuits or other court actions.

This sounds harsh and may be difficult for some, but once a driver realises there are consequences then maybe they will wise up. Knowing young blokes (I have one) they will still take risks and show off, but making it more difficult to get a licence in the first place can only help.

You call this difficult and harsh?? I call it beaurocratic. Come with me to Germany and be prepared to spend $3,500 to have each teen taught, I know just the lady instructor. If with time this person cannot prove to tester satisfaction the ability to read and behave appropriately to much faster rear-closing traffic whilst doing 130km/h he or she will not get a license.

I also believe that education should start while they are at school.

Agreed, but this typically happens in some locales through the efforts of the AAA affiliates, RACQ, NRMA et al.

Your in NSW, in all honesty, have you actually read the handbook "The Road Users' Handbook" start to tail?

Robjh80 wrote: - (6.) Compulsory six monthly medical checks by local GP's for all drivers regardless of age, GP's could sign off a standard form which all drivers need to carry with them in the vehicle for presentation to Police Officers as requested.

Are you insane?? A persons medical file is not the business of police, UNLESS the person is known to them as a Schedule Two. At 6 month intervals your idea will EASILY overload the already over utilised and well worked medical system. Maybe at best every five years. We require it every year past age eighty and I can tell you, it takes up to 4 weeks in my area to see a doctor, now, if I add the two million plus NSW licensed drivers into the system, well christ all bloody mighty!!

A driver with the behaviour of a scat-cat will still have a pass. The National Driver Training Scheme being implemented does seek to find those individuals who are 'aggressive' to try and remedy them in their on-road behaviour.

This scheme will take another 7 or so years to realise benefit, as it is still in the early stages of implementation.

[poolkeeper]

Originally Posted by robjh80

"High Powered Cars + Peer Pressure + Limited Experience = Fatalities"

(1.) No young inexperienced driver should be allowed to drive anything over a normally aspirated non-modified 1600cc motor vehicle, must hold open licence for minimum of say 3 years before tiering up to the next level, say 2500cc etc etc. (you get the idea)

(2.) Curfew on young drivers, no P plate drivers allowed on the roads after say 11.00pm unless they have been allocated a restricted permit for verified reasons such as work requirements etc.

(3.) Passenger restrictions, P plate drivers can only be accompanied by a maximum of 1 passenger in the car at any time, that passenger must also be the holder of an open driving licence.

(4.) Zero Alchohol Limit for all drivers until they obtain an open licence.

(5.) Compulsory Accredited Driver Training Courses for all L and P plate drivers.

(6.) Compulsory six monthly medical checks by local GP's for all drivers regardless of age, GP's could sign off a standard form which all drivers need to carry with them in the vehicle for presentation to Police Officers as requested.

(7.) Compulsory six monthly warrant of fitness checks on all vehicles, as carried out in many overseas countries.....including NZ.

Then whats the point of getting yours p's then??

[Heffnic]

L's at 18 years of age and then p's at 20 then full licence at 23 its just silly u can go for your L,s six months before your p"s. Whats six months in driving with a parent or instructor. I was on my learners from 16 to 19 then i got my p's best thing i could have ever done. Now i have my full license and am a lot wiser when it comes to driving.

[red_hotxr6]

Well, my 2 cents worth, at least for 1 year they should only be allowed to drive a 4 cyl car that has no modifications to that car.If after that 1 year you have not lost any points then you can buy the car of your dreams. Hopefully in that 1 year that person gets the experience needed, 2 be able to see the other "idiots " doing stupid things and learning from it.

Now, please feel free to correct me if i am wrong, but in the last month how many teenagers have died in a high powered vehicle against how many in a 4cyl? I know i would rather watch on tv all the angry teenagers crying 'foul" because they cant buy their 'souped up" v8 car, than watching them getting carted off the road like so much dog s.....e.Not all of the teens are like that but it is that TOO many are ending up like that, would you like to volunteer to clean the mess up every time something like this happens? I think not.

[S3SR]

1. better parental control (why let an inexperienced driver (your child) own a hot import or V8 they cant control....hey i say they killed their own kids)
2. education get those injured in car accidents to go speak to the kids at schools, videos and even drivers ed and defensive courses
3. 100 hours of driving before you get p's (must be in ALL types of traffic and conditions with proof not just a signature from some opens license holder)
4. maybe a few clubs/meeting things for those who want to occasionally test their skills on the track....$70 all day pass is better than $7000 in funeral costs hey

[Green X]

”Really speed cameras suck but only if your speeding, if more were out there people would be more cautious. When I'm on the Western ring road i see cars tap the brakes when they come too the speed cameras even when doing 100 they slow more, If there are more they will watch there speeds more.”


I can see you’re from Victoria>
Yes that’s exactly want we need 18 million cars out on the road with every body looking at there Speedo instead of the road and what is going on outside the window, yeah that’s a sure way to stop deaths NOT.

This country needs more realistic speed limits and we need fewer speed limits, Drivers need to be trained how to control and handle car right from go.

Restricting people isn’t going to do anything; the only way to learn is buy doing.

[Bill_R]

attitude but I think that's a difficult one to change. Education might help with attitude for some but there will always be idiots around trying to show off to their mates or whatever.
Driving skills - yeah, training is important. It needs to be defensive driving training with the reality of the horror of these accidents drummed in. I see a potential problem with advanced car control for young driver. It might be another ticket for them to get the car out of control.
All of this sounds like a great approach but I think, when it comes to the crunch, only getting tough might have an impact. Possibly increase the age to get a license and/or impose restrictions (exemptions for travel to and from work etc). Lower the speed limit for restricted drivers. that will pain us who need to follow them but thems the breaks. Limit the number of occupants for restricted drivers. Make it easier for restricted drivers to lose their licenses.

report dangerous drivers before they cause accidents. For the first time ever I did this on Friday. I had an idiot behind me in a beat-up Celica spinning his wheels in a 40 zone in a suburban 40 km/h zone in Kingscliff NSW while looking at his mates in the car and laughing. He later passed me over a double, solid centerline in a 50 zone (I was possibly well over 50). I checked out where he stopped and reported him. Now, he had Qld rego in NSW so the Police said they couldn't go out and visit him. They'd keep an eye out for him. I'd say he had no tread on his tyres by now.

[luke]

Just had a quick read over the article...

For a start, not all P-Platers have the will to drive like that, push the limits etc, but there will always be some people with such an attitude.
Why is it that I hear stuff like "Powerful eight- cylinder vehicle"??

As a few of you have mentioned earlier in this thread, take the v8's away from the hoons. You will find that they will start killing themselves in little four-cylinder hatchbacks instead. Some people just have this attitude which you can't change.

Take me for example. My mum taught me to drive in a 5 speed EA falcon. Fair bit of power for an L-plater as some might think. After borrowing this car for a few months on and off once I got my P's, I had been driving around in this vehicle that had more power than your average VN, and I never pushed it to its limits, as I already knew what the car could do.

However, for my first car, my dad insisted that I got myself a little four-cylinder hatch. So, with alot of argument from me, he bought me an '85 KB Laser 5-speed. I thrashed it for all it was worth. Pushing it to 8000 RPM, trying to get the same amount of power out of it as the car I'd learnt in. I admit this was stupid, as it was many years ago, but one time I managed to push it to 180 kph. If something went wrong, I would have become another statistic like those three people in this V8 Holden Statesman. In fact, this car would not stand up to a collision like a Statesman or any other larger car would. Since then I have never done something so stupid on a public road.

My point is, if they have that attitude then things will always be the same. 4,6,8 cylinder, motorbike, in any of these vehicles if you want to go fast, you can quite easily.

Teach these people before they get the chance to learn themselves.

Hope it all made sense
Luke.

[Greenhorn]

Originally Posted by Heffnic
L's at 18 years of age and then p's at 20 then full licence at 23 its just silly u can go for your L,s six months before your p"s. Whats six months in driving with a parent or instructor. I was on my learners from 16 to 19 then i got my p's best thing i could have ever done. Now i have my full license and am a lot wiser when it comes to driving.

i had my L's for six months before getting my p's and i did more driving than most that had theirs for 2 years

[XFshep]

personally i dont think anything can help prevent accidents except experience. ive only had my license for around a year and towards the start i was doing some stupid shit but i remember one incident where me, my passenger and chances are the other driver should have been dead if things were 2 seconds different either way.

nothing like realising just how stupid what youre doing is to rectify your behaviour, plus i enjoy driving too much to lose my license for something stupid.

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by Bill_R

attitude but I think that's a difficult one to change. Education might help with attitude for some but there will always be idiots around trying to show off to their mates or whatever.
Driving skills - yeah, training is important. It needs to be defensive driving training with the reality of the horror of these accidents drummed in. I see a potential problem with advanced car control for young driver. It might be another ticket for them to get the car out of control.
All of this sounds like a great approach but I think, when it comes to the crunch, only getting tough might have an impact. Possibly increase the age to get a license and/or impose restrictions (exemptions for travel to and from work etc). Lower the speed limit for restricted drivers. that will pain us who need to follow them but thems the breaks. Limit the number of occupants for restricted drivers. Make it easier for restricted drivers to lose their licenses.

report dangerous drivers before they cause accidents. For the first time ever I did this on Friday. I had an idiot behind me in a beat-up Celica spinning his wheels in a 40 zone in a suburban 40 km/h zone in Kingscliff NSW while looking at his mates in the car and laughing. He later passed me over a double, solid centerline in a 50 zone (I was possibly well over 50). I checked out where he stopped and reported him. Now, he had Qld rego in NSW so the Police said they couldn't go out and visit him. They'd keep an eye out for him. I'd say he had no tread on his tyres by now.

Laws are getting passed if not already about getting video footage of idots so they can be charged under the traffic act of the apporpriate infringement.
With so many camera phones these days, its a good option if you witness it.

[FPV8U]

Power to Weight ratio's, Banning V8's & Turbo's is just a band aid...

All of you calling for the banning of these cars and enforcing of the power to weight regulations, can you tell me how that is going to help the death toll?

99% of these cars you see on the news are 6 cylinder falcons and commodores sure there is the odd 5.0L but even these DONT have as much power as a BF XT or VE Omega!

These rules and regs are just put in place to make govenments look like there trying to fix the problem, instead of spending some money on education and actually attempting to fix it.

[Barry_v]

how about all the 18-25yo apprentices that get seriously injured or killed at work due to inexperience? how about we introduce a P plate worker scheme. for the first 2 years of their working life they can only be employed in low risk situations and only on certain days of the week, and have their work rate slowed down to 50% of everyone else. also if they make a mistake they lose their P plates and go back on L plates, which means they have to go home and watch TV for a year.

some of the comments on this thread as just moronic. THINK about what you're typing. young people cant afford new cars. placing them in a 1600cc 1980s hatch is making them safer? they will crash ANY car they drive, so putting them in a deathtrap will make crashes more severe.

and curfiews? come on. go to a nightfill shift at your local supermarket and see how many P plated cars are in the carpark. how the hell are they going to get to work? exemptions? so they get pulled over every night and harrassed for papers nazi germany style?

Im not replying, go right a letter to your local paper if you think im another young idiot hoon satan worshipper. they'll put it in the pile along with the letters about "that young person who didnt give me his seat on the bus".

[Heffnic]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

how about all the 18-25yo apprentices that get seriously injured or killed at work due to inexperience? how about we introduce a P plate worker scheme. for the first 2 years of their working life they can only be employed in low risk situations and only on certain days of the week, and have their work rate slowed down to 50% of everyone else. also if they make a mistake they lose their P plates and go back on L plates, which means they have to go home and watch TV for a year.

some of the comments on this thread as just moronic. THINK about what you're typing. young people cant afford new cars. placing them in a 1600cc 1980s hatch is making them safer? they will crash ANY car they drive, so putting them in a deathtrap will make crashes more severe.

and curfiews? come on. go to a nightfill shift at your local supermarket and see how many P plated cars are in the carpark. how the hell are they going to get to work? exemptions? so they get pulled over every night and harrassed for papers nazi germany style?

Im not replying, go right a letter to your local paper if you think im another young idiot hoon satan worshipper. they'll put it in the pile along with the letters about "that young person who didnt give me his seat on the bus".

hey bud your first paragraph on app having plates wtf has that really got anything to do with driving.Tell me how many app each year kill other workers due to being stupid or not knowing what they are doing? oh and young people not being able to afford new cars i know of a few young drivers that drive new cars either they paid for it or there folks brought it for them. Im not talking run of the mill stock cars GTPs HSVs SKYLINES. Drive around anywhere mate u will see it. And im not saying all young drivers fit in that catorgory of doing stupid s**t thats just wrong and i think i stand up for some of the people that have replied to this thread. And im quite sure if u kept a close eye on the papers when they where talking about cufews for young drivers at nite that it would not apply to people who had to work at those times. In conclusion yes there should be some kind of program weather it be in school or going to tafe to learn how to drive.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by Green X

”Really speed cameras suck but only if your speeding, if more were out there people would be more cautious. When I'm on the Western ring road i see cars tap the brakes when they come too the speed cameras even when doing 100 they slow more, If there are more they will watch there speeds more.”


I can see you’re from Victoria>
Yes that’s exactly want we need 18 million cars out on the road with every body looking at there Speedo instead of the road and what is going on outside the window, yeah that’s a sure way to stop deaths NOT.

This country needs more realistic speed limits and we need fewer speed limits, Drivers need to be trained how to control and handle car right from go.

Restricting people isn’t going to do anything; the only way to learn is buy doing.

Ever herd the saying, "You can lead a horse too water, But you can't make it drink"
If people don't watch there speedo's they could be 10+kp/h over the limit very easy, So saying people watching there speed is more dangerous is stupid. Like come on man don't be so bloody stupid! Like people will look down at the speedo for 99% of driving, Does it hurt for a little peak from time too time? Or do you just not look at your speedo?.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Slick_Aussie

Ever herd the saying, "You can lead a horse too water, But you can't make it drink"
If people don't watch there speedo's they could be 10+kp/h over the limit very easy, So saying people watching there speed is more dangerous is stupid. Like come on man don't be so bloody stupid! Like people will look down at the speedo for 99% of driving, Does it hurt for a little peak from time too time? Or do you just not look at your speedo?.

No, mr speed camera operator slick holden I mean aussie, any system that takes the choice and judgement away from the driver for the sole purpose of revinue raising is unjust.

Doing 99 km/h in a 100 zone in fog is stupd, dangerous and culpable but legal.
Doing 110km/h is 100 zone on a multi lane freeway with 10km visibility and not another car in sight is illegal.

Every time you look at your speedo you are NOT looking at the road. Every time you hold up traffic you increase stress and the potential for accidents.

Speed cameras in Victoria are designed to raise money not save lives. If they were designed to actually slow down traffic at dangerous places they would, like NSW and QLD, have signs saying, "SPEED CAMERA SLOW DOWN". Anyone caught by these is asleep at the wheel and deserves to be fined.

I do not expect you to agree with this because as a speed camera operator you are part of the problem. Yes I know, it is your job, you are just following orders, you are doing what you believe is the right thing....sounds familiar....just like what was said in Nuremburg in 1946...

But that is the law in Victoria and the law was made by people elected by Victorians. If you don't like it, do something about it.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by flappist

No, mr speed camera operator slick holden I mean aussie, any system that takes the choice and judgement away from the driver for the sole purpose of revinue raising is unjust.

Doing 99 km/h in a 100 zone in fog is stupd, dangerous and culpable but legal.
Doing 110km/h is 100 zone on a multi lane freeway with 10km visibility and not another car in sight is illegal.

Originally Posted by flappist

Every time you look at your speedo you are NOT looking at the road. Every time you hold up traffic you increase stress and the potential for accidents.

Speed cameras in Victoria are designed to raise money not save lives. If they were designed to actually slow down traffic at dangerous places they would, like NSW and QLD, have signs saying, "SPEED CAMERA SLOW DOWN". Anyone caught by these is asleep at the wheel and deserves to be fined.

I do not expect you to agree with this because as a speed camera operator you are part of the problem. Yes I know, it is your job, you are just following orders, you are doing what you believe is the right thing....sounds familiar....just like what was said in Nuremburg in 1946...

But that is the law in Victoria and the law was made by people elected by Victorians. If you don't like it, do something about it.

Speed cameras only become a problem or a revenue raiser when people get caught by one.

Every time you look into your mirror your not looking where your going, Rear view where you been, Same thing. If you don't pay attention to your speed you get what you get when you get the fine, But never moan there only there for revenue take responsibility for not being fully aware of your speed.

What do you think a GST is anything but a revenue raiser?? We live in a world of rules, Rules that infulence our decisions everyday. It's life.
Before speed cameras got set up in this one street i know cars were found in the middle of the night in peoples front lawns, Guard rails were installed too stop the cars ending up in peoples bedrooms. Since the speed camera was introduced not one accident there. In some cases they are more then just revenue raisers.

Speeding is against the law, Same as many other laws so many out there, But that's life that's why they set them.
If people really want too moan about something that is only revenue raising go and moan about poker machines there something that ruins lives family's everyday.
I get the feeling people will vote on a camera only, Is that a real reason too sway a vote?.

The first quoted part are you sure that was for me cause it made no sense too me or what i was talking about. Not that you would understand what i was talking about i wouldn't expect you too understand a word i say since you clearly have stated we agree on nothing and i should vote labour, Not that it's your decision too be made it's mine and mine alone remember that.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Racecraft

while I agree, driving training, skid pans and drag strips are too safe to teach you. They are too controlled with run off areas but have no unknowns/surprises, no off camber corners with slippery line markings and no pot holes, gutters or the music blaring with 3 mates chatting away to you etc.. Add to that that 99% of participants that venture into driver training, track days and the like also have the common sense to make sure their ride is upto the task.. No bald'ish tyres, even tyre pressures and the like. And this is where the problem lies imho.. Some people, not just p platers are well educated in car control and co-ordinated enough to drive very well under controlled circumstances but add a few variables in and accidents happen :(

My solution:- Driver training needs to be more real world.. The tracks that you are trained on should mimic where the real world accidents happen, a blind corner with objects (water based painted foam tress, oil spills on line markings, foam gutters, foam cars coming out of give way signs, even perhaps a slow leaking rear tyre etc.. I know logistically it would be hard and costly, but send your average driver out into a situation filled adventure and watch their attitude and approach to driving change when their car comes back covered in paint and foam

well thought out............ could add to that overtaking correctly on highway many are lacking in these skills.

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

some of the comments on this thread as just moronic. THINK about what you're typing. young people cant afford new cars. placing them in a 1600cc 1980s hatch is making them safer? they will crash ANY car they drive, so putting them in a deathtrap will make crashes more severe.

What a load of codswollop!
If you buy a car which is "safer" ie ABS,ESP,SRS it artifically makes them think they are better drivers than what they are. Get a car without all the extras that is a low powered car and you force them to LEARN to drive in a safe enviorment, so when later they do get these other cars they respect them more. Besides who said anything about a 1980's 1600cc hatch being unsafe. I recall sevral of these types of cars being "cars of the year". More to the point your average run of the mill $1000-$3000 car is now more like a mid 1990's laser, mazda astina, hyundi excel, corolla etc. I fail to see how these cars are by your words "deathtraps".

[robjh80]

Originally Posted by D1XR2C

Then whats the point of getting yours p's then??

"To enable the inexperienced driver enough time to develop effective and coherant driving skills behind the wheel of what is effectively a deadly weapon"

Bear in mind I received a "full open driving licence for life".....at age 15 in NZ, pretty much took the Ministry of Transport Officer for a quick spin around the block while he checked out all the lovely ladies along the way, and hey presto......"thanks young fella, here's ya licence"

There was also no points system back in those days, ya pretty much just collected speeding fines etc as a matter of norm.......just used to throw them in the glovebox with all the others and pay them when the final demand came in the post.

When I think back now it was absolutely crazy getting handed a licence at that age, I was a complete lunatic in a car, had an Escort 1600 Sport in those days, very fancy car for the times,.......never even gave a second thought to such things as drink driving, wearing a seatbelt, larking around in the car, excessive speeding etc........I'm damn lucky to be alive today, had many accidents, hit several cars, a bus, a brick wall and a large tree, all in the space of the first couple of years of getting my licence, unfortunately as we have seen again this week, others are no so lucky........"slow down everyone I say."

[Green X]

Hay slick, you’re a lost cause, if you actually believe that minor speeding is the sole cause for accidents then just keep on believing what the government serves you up.

Every new law the government bring in is all about reducing and restricting and they have been at it for a wile now and it hasn’t done a hell of a lot has it,

The only thing they haven’t done is change the way new drivers are trained, I.E how to drive a car, how to drive to conditions, how to judge traffic and how To ********* overtake properly.

100hous of logged driving, what the hell is that going to do if it's all done putting around the city in a 4 banger, What happens when they get out on a country road and a roo jumps out in front of them when there doing 110km/h and they freeze up, What happens when they are coming around a corner and a tyre blows out at 90km/h.