Ben Roberts-Smith, Judge says he is a murderer

[Trevor 57]

I think a lot of posters are getting a little ahead of themselves over this, are you ****ers all turning a bit 'woke'

Roberts-Smith has lost a defamation case, he was NEVER tried for war crimes, settle the **** down

When and IF the time comes and 'they' decide to charge him with war crimes and IF he is found guilty then all you Karen's can have a cry, until then STFU

Innocent until proven guilty. The 'legal requirements' for a civil case are a lot lower than a criminal case. Let's just see the outcome of a criminal case before we all jump to conclusions

And IF Australia gets involved in another overseas conflict I expect some of you nay-sayers to be at the front of the line queuing up to join the ADF and put your toes into the theatre of war

[FairmontGS]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

Key elements:

Thanks for posting that Blue. Quite the read. A lot of shenanigans in the background…

[Interceptor]

Originally Posted by TasRanger

So if a foreign fighter commits war crimes against our troops, that's ok?

According to the bleating hearts, its perfectly OK because thats how little Abdul was raised.

Originally Posted by TasRanger

If any of our troops are suspected of committing war crimes, they should be appropriately investigated and tried in a court of law. War crimes are not just things that happen.

Yet how often do you see Taliban members up in court defending themselves?

Originally Posted by TasRanger

We are better than that.

Going to go see an army recruiter on monday so you can do your bit to lead by example then?

Originally Posted by zilo

It takes a special kind of person to volunteer to go offshore to start a war for no apparent threat to Australia

Since when did soldiers volunteer to go overseas and start wars?

Its the politicians people vote in that start the wars the troops get sent off to fight in, something too often forgotten down the track when the troops return home to a public who would rather blame the troops than the men in suits that started it all.

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

And IF Australia gets involved in another overseas conflict I expect some of you nay-sayers to be at the front of the line queuing up to join the ADF and put your toes into the theatre of war

When, not if Australia next gets dragged into an overseas conflict, dont get your hopes up of seeing the bleating hearts queuing up to enlist, they do their best fighting behind their keyboards.

Originally Posted by FairmontGS

Thanks for posting that Blue. Quite the read. A lot of shenanigans in the background…

You seem shocked?

My take on this, is that a whole lot of people who dont have the hide to step up to the front line where bad things happen are freely allowed to attack those who ARE willing to put their lives on the line, and do so with the protection of highly paid legal teams.
It disappoints me to see soldiers turning their back on their brothers, the same men every soldier needs to be able to trust and depend on when the world is at its worst
The media and bleating hearts talk a big game saying that our soldiers need to be held to a higher standard, but they never say a word about the barbarism and atrocities our troops so often have leveled against them.

War is hell, and expecting our troops to step up to the enemy singing kumbaya with their hands tied behind their backs will only mean a steady flow of coffins being flown home.

Anyone who supports that needs to be held accountable for the death of each and every soldier who doesnt come home alive.

If you're going to go to war against an enemy that holds no respect for others, no value in human life, and is willing to commit atrocities against their own people just to ensure support for their own ways, the ONLY way to beat them is to be the bigger bastard at their own game.

The difference? Having the humanity to bring peace to the land once the fighting is done.

Thats the difference between being civilised people, and barbarians.

Peace is not brought by those who live by peaceful ways, its brought by those who are willing to use violence when it is required.

[FairmontGS]

Originally Posted by Interceptor

You seem shocked?

Somewhat surprised really. I hadn't comprehended that Stokes' teams involvement went that deep.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Interceptor

Since when did soldiers volunteer to go overseas and start wars?

Its the politicians people vote in that start the wars the troops get sent off to fight in, something too often forgotten down the track when the troops return home to a public who would rather blame the troops than the men in suits that started it all.
.

Err......all Australian service personnel that have toured in Iraq Afghanistan...etc have all volunteered....not compelled by the likes of conscription.

You volunteer..you are complicit.

It's all about the taxfree money and benefits.

Hope that clears it up for you.

[Trevor 57]

If some of the 'woke' on here thinks that no Australian ADF person has ever committed a war crime, from our first involvement in wars on then you are dreaming, it goes on on all sides, no one side is exempt.

It is called 'war' and really ****ty things happen

And with returned ADF personnel making up a huge percentage of suicide deaths, from **** like this that is being written on social media about them by idiots who know nothing of 'war', you 'woke' lot need to hang your ****ing heads in shame. You are a ****ing embarrassment

According to you lot BRS is guilty before he has even been charged - what happened to innocent until proven guilty?

[aussiblue]

Whatever people views are on this issue Trev, I don't think calling people woke contributes anything, and certainly nothing positive.
Noting that "woke" is defined (see https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woke) as: "being aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)", I would be proud to be called woke. Using it in a disrespectful way or to denigrate people seems to be just a bit of Trump-like verbal bullying or name calling.

This is obviously a controversial issue, but everyone on both sides is entitled to their views so lets keep it so keep it polite and mutually respectful. I'm still sitting on the fence until there is further clarification although at this point it doesn't look good for BRS or perhaps even the culture in the part of ADF where he served.

[Kingsley]

Originally Posted by zilo

Err......all Australian service personnel that have toured in Iraq Afghanistan...etc have all volunteered....not compelled by the likes of conscription.

You volunteer..you are complicit.

It's all about the tax free money and benefits.

Hope that clears it up for you.

I'm curious to know when you get back from your umpteenth ban whats the 'tax free money' and all the 'benefits' that personnel get for serving in the Defence Force? If your place of employment had a similar system in place would you complain? If your place of employment then put in the same discipline standards as the army for those benefits, would you still go?
Would you be willing to uproot your family/girlfriend/boyfriend up every 2-4 years to move from state to state? Would you be willing to spend weeks at a time away from your family? Many that claim they could rarely last the first term of enlistment before its all too hard for them. A lot dont even get that far bailing at 'rookies'.

Would you serve your country if needed or would you and others of your ilk would be on the first planes and ships out if here of war broke out? Fighting the good fight from a keyboard overseas ensuring that those behind play by your rules regardless of what the other sides doing?
Part of Defence is fighting overseas in wars we dont understand or believe we should partake in. Those wars, as callous as it sounds, also provide 'real time' training.
I cant defend or support the allegations bought about by the media, I wasnt there and the media has a horrible habit of unbalanced, selective, sensationist and half truth to flat out lies in reporting and but I understand why it happens and the culture of Defence and why its necessary to have soldiers like Roberts-Smith should we ever need them.

[FTE217]

well said Mesa well said.
None condone any wrong doing when at the cold face - meaning us fortunate enough not in the armed forces.
I've learnt alot from a good mate of mine who has been in the ADF most of his life.
Just as Mesa mentioned enlisted soldiers with their families are living state to state its not a great family life and to say all about tax free money and benefits that is 2/5ths of F all what they earn is disgusting to say, yes they volunteer and THANK CHRIST for that !
The Gov's cost cutting the last 10/15yrs is appalling I feel very sorry for them for I see what my mate has gone through and not even a million bucks is worth the mental health issues, seeing or hearing of mates suiciding, problems compounding with not enough understanding for themselves let alone their family.
My mate has huge anger issues, I've seen it many times over the years over a random thing, a switch just suddenly pops, his 3 kids used to be afraid of him let alone his wife.
Thankfully they understand and got through alot without actual violence but they are all scared, these poor men and women are walking time bombs.
Ifeel for all those in the armed forces for we here don't give them enough credit let alone support but I'm heartened seeing some posts here.
There's one thing I've always admired about the Yanks, Thankyou for your SERVICE.
Why we have never picked this up here astounds me yet we pick up useless other plastic traits.

[lra]

Originally Posted by FTE217

There's one thing I've always admired about the Yanks, Thank you for your SERVICE.

But they still ignore their Veterans with regard to health services and support, whether it is better or worse than Aus, I don't know.

Getting away from the BRS controversy for a bit, it seems that some of the comments on here are from members who have no idea about wearing an ADF uniform. Typical of the civilian public.

When there are fires and floods, they ask "Where is the Army ?" in the belief that there are thousands of them just sitting around watching TV or playing cards, with billions of dollars of specific firefighting and swift water rescue equipment sitting idle.

As for social media misinformation, during the COVID lockdowns, when the ADF were assisting NSW Police, I couldn't get over the reports of armed Army personnel pulling people from their homes during the night and forcibly vaccinating them. WTF ! !

WW1 and WW2 veterans were treated and respected as heroes. For the past 60 years since they have been ignored, denigrated and vilified.
For the forum whingers ......... join up, now, and enjoy the tax-free pay, free clothing, free food, and free housing and accommodation that you seem to think ADF members receive. You could be disappointed.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

I'm still sitting on the fence until there is further clarification although at this point it doesn't look good for BRS or perhaps even the culture in the part of ADF where he served.

I don't know why you are sitting on the fence, the allegations have not been tested in a criminal court of law.

As has been said a number of times the burden of proof are a lot lower in a civil case (which this was) versus a criminal case (yet to be held)

Want some case history, albeit American? O J Simpson went to criminal trial for the murder of his wife, there was not enough evidence (burden of proof) for him to be convicted, so found not guilty. His wife's family took it to civil court (they sued him personally) and won. I know the law here is very different, but the example is relevant

And to make the point AGAIN!!!!, he lost a DEFAMATION case, no charges of any crime to do with his time serving in the ADF have been laid - people need to stop the speculating bull-****. They were NOT in Afghanistan when these ALLEGED crimes took place so they need to STFU

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by zilo

Err......all Australian service personnel that have toured in Iraq Afghanistan...etc have all volunteered....not compelled by the likes of conscription.

You volunteer..you are complicit.

It's all about the taxfree money and benefits.

Hope that clears it up for you.

what a ****ing crock of ****

The only 'tax free' benefits happen when they serve in war like conditions, best to check you facts ol' son

https://pay-conditions.defence.gov.a.../part-5b/div-3

https://wealthvisory.com.au/defence-...ltimate-guide/

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by lra

But they still ignore their Veterans with regard to health services and support, whether it is better or worse than Aus, I don't know.

Getting away from the BRS controversy for a bit, it seems that some of the comments on here are from members who have no idea about wearing an ADF uniform. Typical of the civilian public.

When there are fires and floods, they ask "Where is the Army ?" in the belief that there are thousands of them just sitting around watching TV or playing cards, with billions of dollars of specific firefighting and swift water rescue equipment sitting idle.

As for social media misinformation, during the COVID lockdowns, when the ADF were assisting NSW Police, I couldn't get over the reports of armed Army personnel pulling people from their homes during the night and forcibly vaccinating them. WTF ! !

WW1 and WW2 veterans were treated and respected as heroes. For the past 60 years since they have been ignored, denigrated and vilified.
For the forum whingers ......... join up, now, and enjoy the tax-free pay, free clothing, free food, and free housing and accommodation that you seem to think ADF members receive. You could be disappointed.

Ira, unfortunately the system will never do a great a job in supporting vets here there or anywhere.....
As has been mentioned politics/pollies that bring on going to war, let alone the pollies past to present can't manage to run a chook raffle at home supporting past troops/vets.
At least alot of US public give a walking by vet a Thankyou, we can't even do that but they read the medias agendas then make comment amongst themselves having a latte.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

I don't know why you are sitting on the fence, the allegations have not been tested in a criminal court of law.

As has been said a number of times the burden of proof are a lot lower in a civil case (which this was) versus a criminal case (yet to be held)

Calm down. You have a point regarding criminality, but the court found the allegations to be true on the balance of probability, that's where it stands. From what I've read, no one here is talking about a criminality, but have simply accepted the court's decision. Cav started the thread for an open discussion.....I think.

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

They were NOT in Afghanistan when these ALLEGED crimes took place so they need to STFU

Who wasn't? The witnesses?

Originally Posted by Interceptor

If you're going to go to war against an enemy that holds no respect for others, no value in human life, and is willing to commit atrocities against their own people just to ensure support for their own ways, the ONLY way to beat them is to be the bigger bastard at their own game.

The difference? Having the humanity to bring peace to the land once the fighting is done.

Thats the difference between being civilised people, and barbarians.

Peace is not brought by those who live by peaceful ways, its brought by those who are willing to use violence when it is required.

I sincerely hope a civilised society does not compete on who can be the bigger bastard against civilians, nor go into civilian's homes in a non combat scenario (as has been alleged), and start shooting. That ain't peace, thats one sure way to breed the next gen of extremists.

[Trevor 57]

Where is the outcry here about Ukraine or about any other conflict, civil or not where hundreds if not thousands of innocents are being killed right now

So, tell me again how many hundreds, thousands of innocent civillians is it ALLEDGED to gave killed again

How many innocent citizens of ours have been killed in conflicts oveseas, where is the outrage?

****ing hypocrites,getting sucked by the MSM

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

Where is the outcry here about Ukraine or about any other conflict, civil or not where hundreds if not thousands of innocents are being killed right now

So, tell me again how many hundreds, thousands of innocent civillians is it ALLEDGED to gave killed again

How many innocent citizens of ours have been killed in conflicts oveseas, where is the outrage?

****ing hypocrites,getting sucked by the MSM

I must be watching MSM on a parallel universe, because I've seen it mentioned 24/7, so much so I think people have become desensitised to it.

You do realise there is currently an arrest warrant out for the the leader of a certain nation for War Crimes?

[Interceptor]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

I sincerely hope a civilised society does not compete on who can be the bigger bastard against civilians, nor go into civilian's homes in a non combat scenario (as has been alleged), and start shooting. That ain't peace, thats one sure way to breed the next gen of extremists.

When history shows that the opposing forces, be it the Taliban, Vietcong, or whoever are willing to go to extremes to ensure the co-operation of the civilian population, sometimes, yes, you need to be the bigger bastard.

Or do you really believe they wont hide in amongst the civilian population waiting for an opportune time to strike?

Its unpalatable to many in the western world to tell the locals "Yes, we know they've threatened you with XXXXX if you dont help them, but if you do, we WILL do much, MUCH worse", but promising to build schools and hospitals isnt much comfort to the locals when they know the taliban wont leave anyone alive in their village to see those promises come to life.

[aussiblue]

I don't know why you are sitting on the fence, the allegations have not been tested in a criminal court of law.

Exactly and if and when they are I might get off my fence. But, despite your views this defamation judgement certainly raises doubts about BR-S's credibility and the possibility of a successful criminal prosecution.


As this article says: https://www.murdoch.edu.au/news/arti...d-of-the-story

The judgement in this case ought to have minimal impact on Australian forces who are deployed overseas, as following the rules of war is assumed to be part of any mission they undertake. If the case does come as a wake-up call to some, then the ADF will have to further assess its training on the laws of war, its leadership, and its culture.

The Roberts-Smith case, the finding against him and the graphic detail in the publicly available evidence made headlines around the world. If public faith in the ADF is to be restored, together with its international reputation, there must now be an exhaustive process of investigation and prosecution of any war crimes committed in Afghanistan.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

I must be watching MSM on a parallel universe, because I've seen it mentioned 24/7, so much so I think people have become desensitised to it.

You do know what MSM means?

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

You do realise there is currently an arrest warrant out for the the leader of a certain nation for War Crimes?

and no such arrest warranr for BRS is there?

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Calm down. You have a point regarding criminality, but the court found the allegations to be true on the balance of probability, that's where it stands. From what I've read, no one here is talking about a criminality, but have simply accepted the court's decision. Cav started the thread for an open discussion.....I think.

yep, for defamation FFS, no decision on war crimes, let it go will ya

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

yep, for defamation FFS, no decision on war crimes, let it go will ya

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

You do know what MSM means?

Let what go? No one is talking about any criminality, but you keep banging on about it. Only made you aware of the arrest warrant because you claimed there has been no outrage elsewhere, which is incorrect.

You can blame MSM all you like, no fan of them here either, but in this instance they won, and were found not to have defamed. You don't have to accept it, its your prerogative, but thats where it stands today. There is a right of appeal, lets see what happens tomorrow?

I have a lot of respect for Cav, he started this thread in good faith, so lets not get too hysterical and get the thread shut.

Originally Posted by Interceptor

Or do you really believe they wont hide in amongst the civilian population waiting for an opportune time to strike?

In the scenario you are talking about, its not against the rules....so I've been told. Where you have credible intel indicating there is a legitimate target in a civilian area, and you got it wrong, and innocent people died, its collateral damage and you will not have broken any rules.

Yes, I do have a couple of mates in the ADF, and also a close ex work colleague of mine has a brother in law who served with the SAS in Iraq, so you get to hear stories passed down, and its a big smacking dose of reality.

[FairmontGS]

Roberts-Smith, witnesses not ‘honest and reliable’, court finds

Ben Roberts-Smith and the various witnesses he called upon during his defamation lawsuit against The Age, The Sydney Morning Herald and The Canberra Times were found to be not honest and reliable, Justice Anthony Besanko wrote in his full judgment.

“[Ben Roberts-Smith] was not an honest and reliable witness ... In addition, I have found a number of other witnesses were not honest and reliable witnesses,” the judge wrote.

“[Ben Roberts-Smith] has motives to lie, being a financial motive to support his claim for damages in these proceedings, a motive to restore his reputation which he contends has been destroyed by the publication of the articles and significantly, a motive to resist findings against him which may affect whether further action is taken against him.”

https://www.afr.com/politics/federal...0230605-p5ddw5

[Trevor 57]

Maybe he and others lied, BUT he hasn't been charged with a criminal offence nor has been found guilty of any offence

I seriously don't know why people are struggling with this

[FairmontGS]

Ben Roberts-Smith may have committed criminal offence, judge in defamation trial finds

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-...inds/102441430

[FairmontGS]

Kit Messham-Muir | What should the Australian War Memorial do with its portraits of Ben Roberts-Smith?

Following the ruling, much public debate has focused on what the Australian War Memorial should do with Robert-Smith's uniform, helmet and other artefacts of his on display.
Greens senator David Shoebridge called for the removal of these objects from public display to correct the official record and "to begin telling the entire truth of Australia's involvement in that brutal war."
The topic of what to do with Roberts-Smith's uniform and helmet was debated on ABC's Insiders yesterday: should the display be removed, effectively cancelled, or changed to tell the full story?

https://theconversation.com/what-sho...roberts-smith/

[Trevor 57]

Again 'woke' people calling for blood with no criminal outcome

The media need to stop giving these ****ers a voice. I wonder if they think how they would feel if the shoe was on the other foot, but probably they just wouldn't get it

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by FairmontGS

Ben Roberts-Smith may have committed criminal offence, judge in defamation trial finds

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-...inds/102441430

But he hasn't been charged of a crimjnal offence nor been found guilty of one

I don't know why you are pushing this, it is just all speculation and innuendo without a trial to test the judges words

[Trevor 57]

I really wonder what all you naysayers will do if the DPP or whoever decide there is not enough evidence to secure a conviction and not press any charges

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

I really wonder what all you naysayers will do if the DPP or whoever decide there is not enough evidence to secure a conviction and not press any charges

OJ Simpson was acquitted. Doesnt mean anybody believes the verdict.