'Australian disease' has entered its terminal phase

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by mik

To me it is just plain wrong to sacrifice manufacturing, there will always be a need for this type of work, along with ditch diggers, truckys, process workers, welders ,steel workers, fitters, skilled and non skilled labor alike.

Originally Posted by mik

Even if we didn't have a need for them it is worth having these type of industries even if we have to pay a bit out of the pocket for it(although it is probably too late now.
I sound like a broken record but there will always be people that leave school that are not suited to being a rocket scientist, or a chemist, or etc,etc, and it is ten times better to to have people working spending money , paying taxes, feeling good about themselves adding value to the community and the economy.
have look at the ailments in society already, do we need more people on the dole, do we need more people not paying taxes? do we need more people in the poor house not spending money? and not forgetting a biggy, what commonly comes from people in poverty is crime,.................... also there is the loss of skills in the industry,
some old timers that have a life time of valuable skills (some of which will be lost forever)close to retirement will finish up and never work again.
A lot of jobs have already disappeared and continue to disappear due to automation and here we are killing off a big section of valuable assets for a few dollars.
I don't directly blame the current govco for this, this has been happening for years,
our pollies sacrificed this industry decades ago among others, and consecutive party's continued on with the party idealistic direction,
some of which stemmed from becoming UN lackeys giving other 3rd world countries 30% of our manufacturing ( and it is documented if you research it), and no one has lifted a finger to change direction .
despite certain politicians hypocritically now playing the blame game and crying crocodile tears , these very people and their party played a very big part in destroying what we have already lost over the years and what is yet to come, all parties played a part , and we let them !
The OP article has merit imo.

Those concerns you raise are not factored into the 'economic' model we perhaps blindly, inadvertently or some who have greeted with open arms follow. And as illustrated the ever reducing human input into the mechanised, automated world we become even less relevant as employees. But maintain importance as consumers. But the individual firm is operating as a singular entity, today, with no holistic vision of the future striving to maximise profit by employing the ‘best’ and most cost effective methods, blind/ed to the larger social issues you raise. Effectively we as individuals soldier on as cogs in a self consuming machine. Soon there wil be nobody working and therefore no one to sell too.
How it pans out is the $64 dollar question. I am sure there will be new jobs created that we haven’t thought of before, perhaps for today’s highly skilled people, the low - medium skilled may not be so lucky.
JP

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by BroadyFord

Rest assured that we won't be servicing ourselves exclusively, but rather ourselves and all the tourists who will come to marvel at our beaches and national parks!

I also don't buy this whole "lets replace our manufacturing with big transport infrastructure projects". What's the point of new freeways and tunnels when there is less traffic on the road as less people have jobs to get to?

.........
I wonder how many politicians realise to what extent those foreign tourist come and spend a large potion of their money at 'their' foreign owned airline, hotel, tourist shops and travel companies often employing their own and then exporting the 'profit' back home.
So much for tourism.

[ryeman]

And
Yet another Sydney centric federal govt handing it out to the 'Mexicans' .

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

One thought that has been going through my head since the Toyota announcement has been about profit. Were they really losing money or were the books cooked to make it appear as though they were?

The way I've been reading things Akio Toyoda thinks his Australian workforce is lazy and takes advantage of all conidtions while costing his company money. I made mention in another thread about a quote of his where on Australia Day 2012 that he had a business meeting and thought things were on the up and pride was being restored, only for 30% of the factory floor not showing up the day after and opting instead for a 4 day weekend.

Out of 2500 workers at the Altona plant 750 decided to chuck a sickie.

Is it that friggin important to think about you and your celebrations for nothing and drinking alcohol is more important rather than "maybe my actions now will cost me in the long run?"

I'm sorry however alot of you need to realise your demands now have been met with detrimental consequences. A sickie can cost you your position.

Welcome to the rest of us, where conditions are far less favourable for the average worker. Where you don't get paid overtime, where you don't get leave loading, where you don't get RDOs, where you don't get paid to give blood. Where you DEAL with what you get.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

The way I've been reading things Akio Toyoda thinks his Australian workforce is lazy and takes advantage of all conidtions while costing his company money. I made mention in another thread about a quote of his where on Australia Day 2012 that he had a business meeting and thought things were on the up and pride was being restored, only for 30% of the factory floor not showing up the day after and opting instead for a 4 day weekend.

Out of 2500 workers at the Altona plant 750 decided to chuck a sickie.

Is it that friggin important to think about you and your celebrations for nothing and drinking alcohol is more important rather than "maybe my actions now will cost me in the long run?"

I'm sorry however alot of you need to realise your demands now have been met with detrimental consequences. A sickie can cost you your position.

Welcome to the rest of us, where conditions are far less favourable for the average worker. Where you don't get paid overtime, where you don't get leave loading, where you don't get RDOs, where you don't get paid to give blood. Where you DEAL with what you get.

This comes up a bit and is a fair issue you have raised and I have heard about the 30% which doesn't portray a great picture of the Australian worker. However, 30% is still a minority (but a figure we should not accept, meaning that is way too high and people need to pull their heads in) I do wonder what the figure was for the supply chain as I believe it would be much less and there conditions are also a lot less. So I do feel for the 70% and also those in the supply chain, as I am sure many would have accepted different conditions etc

Ideally Toyota should have been able to manage the 30% (many discourage the process from happening) but I suspect bureaucracy prevents that from occurring.

I still maintain Australia was far better with an Automotive industry than without, and I also believe our governments must protect employment and industries. Otherwise we will end up like a lot of other countries with high unemployment, social economic issues and a larger divide between the have and the have nots.

Edit: would also like to know where the government thinks its revenue will come from in a few years, with industry reducing and therefore revenue from tax reducing. The Automotive industry contributed a lot to the Australian Economy, hence the reason why the world fights to protect there industry

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by SB076

Edit: would also like to know where the government thinks its revenue will come from in a few years, with industry reducing and therefore revenue from tax reducing. The Automotive industry contributed a lot to the Australian Economy, hence the reason why the world fights to protect there industry

Don’t confuse manufacturing and industry. Twenty years ago, manufacturing provided one in every seven Australian jobs, about 13.5 per cent. Today it's 8 per cent.
The vast majority of our 'industry' is service based for better or for worse. Not all service based industry is internal and self servicing.
My service based business exports globally.

However based on what I have read today I am not sure the service or agriculture industry will be able to absorb the displaced manufacturers as they also face automation and significant generational job reductions.

Your point is valid however. Who pays for the goods machines make? and do th emachines pay enough tax to provide welfare to humans?
JP

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by MAD

Agree 100%.

I'd like to add this...
Who decided that it was necessary to have less and less quality issues with products?
Who decided that we need to make 10000 items per hour or it won't be enough to sustain the business?
Same group both times.... shareholders.

I'm an engineer so I have a built in desire for efficiency, but there comes a point when you need to step back and ask if it's really worth it.
As you pointed out with every advancement in automation, comes the need for less people.
The world population is growing, the need for workers is decreasing. How is this going to play out?

We're heading towards a place where there just won't be jobs for people.
What then? Healthcare, schools, homes. How will this work? Free houses supplied by the richest? free rent? free healthcare? free education? (what for? no job to get anyway)

It really is a scary scenario to play out in your head.


I think the Amish might have had the right idea all along.

one of my 1st jobs as an apprentice fitter/machinist in 1986 was to see if i could reduce 1 person on a production line , i came up with an idea that simply turned a tablet box 90 degrees allowing it enter a conveyor belt on another machine , without a production worker standing there turning it by hand . i designed and fitted a device to do this , i received praise from the boss for it . he said we now have reduced that line from 12 people to 11 . i remember feeling bad about it . when in 3rd year i had a tafe assignment . my topic of choice was production of the future , with robotics automation and a 1 man walking around with tools . i scored 100% for that assignment . by the time i'd finished my apprenticeship most lines were down to 5 people . some were fully automated . i moved onto essential services , that factory shut down in 2008 , back to production in U.S . it's parent company . most non essential jobs now are casual , and even thats not enough , they are moving jobs off sure . automation and company closures are now moving off sure , paper pushers in the office are earning what people at woollies are , and shareholders which we are all apart of are making free money , and of course people at the top , employed via contract for 2 years to cut some costs and move on for a few million $$$ win or lose are doing such .
for once we're on the same page MAD . who'd have thought .
i think it's the unions fault , allowing casualisation and free trade to happen . in the 90's working with biog corperations and trying to help them out was a big mistake , also selling off assetts under the radar . well the socialists should of taken the reigns and not allowed this . but union corperates also played a part for big profit payoffs and power . it was the wrong call . the people failed against big corperations . we should of taken over industries not let them be run under free trade .

[Trump]

http://www.theage.com.au/business/we...211-32g0x.html

Healthcare and finance... surely this bloke is joking right?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by SB076

Ideally Toyota should have been able to manage the 30% (many discourage the process from happening) but I suspect bureaucracy prevents that from occurring.

Toyota's dismissal procedure (concocted by the union AFAIK) takes over 2 years IIRC.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

http://www.theage.com.au/business/we...211-32g0x.html

Healthcare and finance... surely this bloke is joking right?

Aging population + advances in medicine + people being more informed of healthier lifestyles = even more aging population

Time to build those retirement centres

[b0son]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

it was the wrong call . the people failed against big corperations . we should of taken over industries not let them be run under free trade .

why not. the union representing the SPC workers has annual revenues of $54mil and assets of $102mil. they could buy in any time they like. speaks volumes that they won't ....

[dmat2391]

have to agree with b0son ....co -ops neverwork egg corp, wool board, Australian wheat board. the milk co-ops of the late 70's. Not Unions in the classic sense but unionized stupidity that just can't work. Leave management to management. Leave unions to do union work.
I'd also suggest an example with the wheat board ,run by "managers" for the benefit of farmers, they had no problem bribing Saddam for Iraqi sales. Just wondering when we'll have a royal commission about managerial insider trading and corruption.

[ryeman]

Surprise surprise, it's the unions fault.
I know because I read it in the Hun/Tele. but somebody did say that I had been fed just one side of the story......that can't be right, can it?.

[Bill M]

Looks like the anti union trolls have been talking crap again!

Toyota rejects assertion it told Joe Hockey that the Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union was behind Altona closure

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-1...turing/5254334

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by Bill M

Looks like the anti union trolls have been talking crap again!

Toyota rejects assertion it told Joe Hockey that the Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union was behind Altona closure

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-1...turing/5254334

If there is balance in the Hun/Tele you'll find over the page in the last paragraph, because the editor cynically knows nobody read the whole article.
They know their readers.

[cheap]

Oh no another witch-hunt and conspiracy against unions.

Here is an article from Larry Pickering, of course his article could be complete BS in which case the Unions would no doubt be initiating appropriate legal action or demanding a retraction or issuing their own clarification.

Instead all we get is the sound of chirping crickets from the unions, for an collective which isn't known for it's restraint, the unions are rather quiet.

Bring on the Royal Commission.

http://pickeringpost.com/story/grace...r-is-hot-/2766

GRACE COLLIER IS HOT!

Only former union officials like Bob Kernohan and Grace Collier understand the dark secrets that bedevil our failing industries. They fearlessly peel back the layers of union corruption and destructive graft that media’s Left denies exists.

They would make a great couple and if ever a threesome was on the cards, well, they both have my number. And as much as I like you Bob, would you mind waiting outside?

But Grace is much more than hot, she is a breath of fresh air wielding a stinging quill, forensically impaling the union mob on its own cross.
Unions killed Toyota and Holden! If you doubt that then read the 150 pages of the EBA (enterprise bargaining agreement) Toyota signed under duress with the AMWU and under the auspice of Fair Work Australia.
It’s a tortuous read and you won’t get far into it before it becomes clear who was running Toyota.

Management of the company was reduced to complying with paragraphs in an EBA that favoured the union rather than its members, and never the company.
When Toyota realised it was operating on borrowed time, it sought to renegotiate its EBA with the AMWU. The union's response? It took Toyota to the Federal Court to prevent it doing so.

The obscene billions successive governments gifted to car makers invariably found their way into EBAs. It’s small wonder Labor insisted the largesse continued.

Labor unions have killed the goose and devoured its egg and who is Bill Shorten blaming? Tony Abbott of course.
Grace Collier’s portentous December account of what was inexorably leading to the total demise of an iconic Australian industry is here:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opin...1226781040913#

Go make a cup of tea, roll a smoke and read it. You will understand why we need rare people like Grace and Bob.

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by cheap

Oh no another witch-hunt and conspiracy against unions.

Here is an article from Larry Pickering, of course his article could be complete BS in which case the Unions would no doubt be initiating appropriate legal action or demanding a retraction or issuing their own clarification.

Instead all we get is the sound of chirping crickets from the unions, for an collective which isn't known for it's restraint, the unions are rather quiet.

Bring on the Royal Commission.

http://pickeringpost.com/story/grace...r-is-hot-/2766

GRACE COLLIER IS HOT!

Only former union officials like Bob Kernohan and Grace Collier understand the dark secrets that bedevil our failing industries. They fearlessly peel back the layers of union corruption and destructive graft that media’s Left denies exists.

They would make a great couple and if ever a threesome was on the cards, well, they both have my number. And as much as I like you Bob, would you mind waiting outside?

But Grace is much more than hot, she is a breath of fresh air wielding a stinging quill, forensically impaling the union mob on its own cross.
Unions killed Toyota and Holden! If you doubt that then read the 150 pages of the EBA (enterprise bargaining agreement) Toyota signed under duress with the AMWU and under the auspice of Fair Work Australia.
It’s a tortuous read and you won’t get far into it before it becomes clear who was running Toyota.

Management of the company was reduced to complying with paragraphs in an EBA that favoured the union rather than its members, and never the company.
When Toyota realised it was operating on borrowed time, it sought to renegotiate its EBA with the AMWU. The union's response? It took Toyota to the Federal Court to prevent it doing so.

The obscene billions successive governments gifted to car makers invariably found their way into EBAs. It’s small wonder Labor insisted the largesse continued.

Labor unions have killed the goose and devoured its egg and who is Bill Shorten blaming? Tony Abbott of course.
Grace Collier’s portentous December account of what was inexorably leading to the total demise of an iconic Australian industry is here:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opin...1226781040913#

Go make a cup of tea, roll a smoke and read it. You will understand why we need rare people like Grace and Bob.

You started off with Larry Pickering, next it'll be Bolt Jones n Hadley.
That says it all really.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by ryeman

You started off with Larry Pickering, next it'll be Bolt Jones n Hadley.
That says it all really.

Feel free to publish the union's version of reality... I can't wait

There is also an interesting podcast on 2GB re union corruption. Have a listen specific allegations made against someone very senior, no doubt he will be instructing his lawyers

As someone once said "bring it on" her wish is granted

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by cheap

Feel free to publish the union's version of reality... I can't wait

There is also an interesting podcast on 2GB re union corruption. Have a listen specific allegations made against someone very senior, no doubt he will be instructing his lawyers

As someone once said "bring it on" her wish is granted

"Roll a smoke and read it" wackie backkie
That would a prerequisite for reading larry pickering's articles.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

The way I've been reading things Akio Toyoda thinks his Australian workforce is lazy and takes advantage of all conidtions while costing his company money. I made mention in another thread about a quote of his where on Australia Day 2012 that he had a business meeting and thought things were on the up and pride was being restored, only for 30% of the factory floor not showing up the day after and opting instead for a 4 day weekend.

Out of 2500 workers at the Altona plant 750 decided to chuck a sickie.

Is it that friggin important to think about you and your celebrations for nothing and drinking alcohol is more important rather than "maybe my actions now will cost me in the long run?"

I'm sorry however alot of you need to realise your demands now have been met with detrimental consequences. A sickie can cost you your position.

Welcome to the rest of us, where conditions are far less favourable for the average worker. Where you don't get paid overtime, where you don't get leave loading, where you don't get RDOs, where you don't get paid to give blood. Where you DEAL with what you get.

A truly aspirational future for us all you have painted there. Perhaps we deserve better. Perhaps two generations of Australian fought for something better, than giving the boss a great life, while everyone else competes to see whose life is crappiest as we mindlessly follow the American vision.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by b0son

Transporting our resources and agricultural products to port.

There's a very good reason why so many foreign multinationals are buying into local agriculture. There's a buck to be made. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but soon. Populations are growing, available land is reducing, at some point we'll be in an excellent position to profit.

We poured $30bn into cars over the last decade, and for what? Imagine we had done the same for the agriculture sector.

Ahh yes the commodities boom and bust cycle.
What an uplifting future to aspire to. Clearly you have no idea on the cross spread of skills both trade and tertiary based permeates through the non auto manufacturing sectors.

One must ask, why should I then have my tax dollars subsidise those on the land in their bad times? According to your grand plan I would be still paying to bail out foreign corporations who are investing in our farmland.

[Syndrome]

Germany was twice destroyed in the 20th century. Yet they picked up themselves on both occasions. How did they do it? By having a strong manufacturing industry!

[cheap]

Originally Posted by Bill M

"Roll a smoke and read it" wackie backkie
That would a prerequisite for reading larry pickering's articles.

We all want corruption eradicated don't we? The OP mentioned disease, isn't corruption a cancer that needs to be gotten rid of?

Dont worry it will not all be bad for the unions, as it takes two to tango and the Royal Commission will also focus on business people who instead of going to the coppers paid off currupt union people. Surely this is good thing?

In the meantime listen to the podcast, the media should be all over him, so enjoy the slimy weasle words and pathetic body language from you know who, will be best fun in years.

I also recall the same person saying "given it your best shot" her wish is granted

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by cheap

We all want corruption eradicated don't we? The OP mentioned disease, isn't corruption a cancer that needs to be gotten rid of?

Dont worry it will not all be bad for the unions, as it takes two to tango and the Royal Commission will also focus on business people who instead of going to the coppers paid off currupt union people. Surely this is good thing?

In the meantime listen to the podcast, the media should be all over him, so enjoy the slimy weasle words and pathetic body language from you know who, will be best fun in years.

I also recall the same person saying "given it your best shot" her wish is granted

You are mistaking the OP's point on the negative aspects of widespread industrial contraction (dutch disease) with a union bash.
You inhaled didn't you!

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by Bill M

Ahh yes the commodities boom and bust cycle.
What an uplifting future to aspire to. Clearly you have no idea on the cross spread of skills both trade and tertiary based permeates through the non auto manufacturing sectors.

One must ask, why should I then have my tax dollars subsidise those on the land in their bad times? According to your grand plan I would be still paying to bail out foreign corporations who are investing in our farmland.

Not to mention the defence force maintenance implications or the high tech R&D investment in manufacturing partnerships.
Fundamentalist ideologues are experimenting with this nation.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by Bill M

You are mistaking the OP's point on the negative aspects of widespread industrial contraction (dutch disease) with a union bash.
You inhaled didn't you!

I can think of a few people who right now are toking and rehearsing "I can not recall"

Will be Interesting times... watch it all implode for some

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

I'm sorry however alot of you need to realise your demands now have been met with detrimental consequences. A sickie can cost you your position.

Welcome to the rest of us, where conditions are far less favourable for the average worker. Where you don't get paid overtime, where you don't get leave loading, where you don't get RDOs, where you don't get paid to give blood. Where you DEAL with what you get.

By the rest of us do you refer to the self employed ??
Yes, they don't get paid overtime, but can bag undeclared cash on a weekly basis.
Don't get paid to give blood, but claim expenses on their wifes car.
Don't get leave loading, but claim and receive a hefty tax return.
And the list goes on ..Give it up champ.

I do totally agree with your points on some peoples lack of work ethic though.

[gtfpv]

well while we go down the economic gurgler . what are the govts plans besides laughing and blaming labor ? Having a good laugh and patting each other on the back and supporters laughing in a i told you so matter , is not really why we elect govts now is it ?

labor had a plan to get big businesses to pay tax . to invest in sustainable energy . it was a plan like it or not .
throwing that away and having a laugh isnt going to solve things . so whats the plan now . ?

[CAMS290]

From Terry McCrann, Herald Sun 11/02/2014

THE Australian car industry; born in 1948; died in 2017; just failing to make it to the biblical lifespan of three score years and ten.

Its birth was driven by an odd mix of war-driven fear and post-war exuberance; its death comes from a lethal cocktail of forces after a long, excruciatingly lingering illness.

WHAT NEXT? SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT DO MORE? SCROLL DOWN TO LEAVE YOUR COMMENT ON THE FUTURE OF AUSTRALIAN MANUFACTURING

And so Australia will join Saudi Arabia as the only two countries in the G20 without a domestic car manufacturing industry.

In a somewhat embarrassing irony, the announcement that ended any last remaining hope of the ‘new boy’ on the (down-under engine) block hanging in, after the two once-were giants of the global car industry scuttle back home to Detroit, came barely a week before Australia hosts the G20 in Sydney.

NEWS REPORT: TEARS FOR TOYOTA

Now, there is going to be a torrent of words written, said and indeed shouted about who and or what killed the car industry. There will be droplets of truth scattered among the waves of misunderstanding and emotion, spin, outright lies, blame shifting and attributing.

At core the truth is all-too simple: the car industry has been living with a terminal illness since the mid-1980s. The illness, long relatively dormant, turned aggressive when China set fire to our resources sector after 2003.

That sent the dollar soaring and, less obviously, put a floor under wages and conditions that the resources industry could afford but manufacturing could not. All manufacturing got hit by the perfect storm of seemingly ever-cheaper imports and sustained high costs.

Further, on a number of levels, the industry simply refused to take the medication that could have extended its life. And by the ‘industry,’ I mean both workers/unions and management.

In short and bluntly, faced with all this, the ‘industry’ committed suicide.

The one interested party that can’t be blamed is the new federal government. Throwing tax money at the producers would not have saved them or the industry; not so long as the four core realities persisted, as they inevitably, irresistibly, were going to.

These were the small production runs, the high value of the Aussie dollar, the absence of any protection against imports (a 5 per cent tariff might as well be zero, and should be now), and the union refusal to embrace massive and revolutionary reform of working conditions.

In the most direct way the workers and the unions at all three companies, Ford, Holden and Toyota voted to keep their working conditions over keeping their jobs. And in the process, they have condemned the jobs of all the other workers among the parts makers.

That said, it might still have been just too late — the individual producers have arguably each passed their individual points of no return.

Ford’s sales of the Falcon had fallen so low, and its prospects of future sales were so dim, it would have been ludicrous for it to contemplate the investment to retool for a future model. And if it was not going to make the Falcon, what would be the point of making a generic world car in Australia?

Much the same goes for Holden, although it arguably still had the basis of a viable indigenous car — the only real point of having an Australian car manufacturing industry. For the Commodore aside, what on earth would be the point of making the same car in high-cost Australia that was being made in Thailand, Korea or even China?

On paper the departure of Holden and Ford could have broken either way for Toyota. That it could scoop up 100 per cent of the demand for an indigenous car, and so get some scale; or, as is the case, the extended links with suppliers became unsustainable when they lost Holden’s demand. The particular problem is that unlike Holden and Ford, Toyota never had an indigenous car. Most of its production is now the globally generic Camry.

In the dying but still living industry of the past decade, Toyota was able to — just — make sense of building some of the Camrys in Australia and sending most of them to the Middle East.

To digress, it might be a fantasy of mine, but arguably if Toyota had quit first, Holden might have been able to make the case for staying on the 100 per cent indigenous car market share basis. But then only with sweeping reform of its industrial relations; and then, perhaps some help from Canberra. But as it stands, for Toyota, just like the other two, it’s impossible to commit to making a global generic car long-term in Australia, when you can make it significantly cheaper somewhere else. But also, when the Australian market is completely open to imports, as a totally bipartisan policy, whichever side is or was actually in government.

Let me add, I am not saying we should have maintained the outrageously high tariffs and other import bans of the ‘good old days.’ That would have made any reform of work practices in the industry impossible; and that would have been very corrosive across the rest of the economy.

It is a matter, though, of degree.

We should not have cut tariffs to just 5 per cent; they could have stopped at, say 20 per cent. And we have always been ludicrously and embarrassingly naive in negotiating so-called ‘free trade agreements’.

Now there is no going back; not between now and 2017; and certainly not after that.

Once the three of them go, they won’t be coming back, ever. And nor will anyone else.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by fte50

By the rest of us do you refer to the self employed ??
Yes, they don't get paid overtime, but can bag undeclared cash on a weekly basis.
Don't get paid to give blood, but claim expenses on their wifes car.
Don't get leave loading, but claim and receive a hefty tax return.
And the list goes on ..Give it up champ.

I do totally agree with your points on some peoples lack of work ethic though.

Plenty of non self employed people on salaries that match the description.