Wire Safety Barriers - Look what they do to low cars!

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by prydey

its not a money saving device, its a safety issue and far better than a solid crash barrier. had there been a guard rail instead none of the energy of the impact would've been absorbed by the railing and the occupants of the car may not have been able to get out and walk around.

the liklihood of decapitation looks pretty slim to me as the 'a' pillar is untouched. road cars are not made of carbon fibre so cannot really draw comparisons.

as for motorbikes, wouldn't matter what barrier was there if your going off its going to hurt.

A solid barrier would generally involve much slower decleration as the vehicle would have slid along it somewhat rather than being grabbed violently by the wire barriers.

As for motorbikes, solid barriers are much preferable, sliding along something is generally quite fine if you are wearing protective gear. Getting your limbs torn off generally isn't quite fine at all.

The EU is in the process of banning wire rope barriers altogether and many countries have done so already. I honestly can't see how any remotely intelligent person can envisage them being a good idea.

[troppobob]

HI Guys
Couple of points which may be of interest. 1 I have been told that The Motor Cycle Council sought and got all States to agree that wire barriers would only be used down the centre of divided roads. This agreement is certainly not being honoured in TAS. 2 The "cheap" Tassie wire barrier in the photo looks like a development from historic common recycling of old mine winder rope. It's been the practice at least 30/40 yrs. to use old steel wire rope stapled to heavy timber posts to guard roadside drop offs.
BTW I don't think that is on the west of the State, the vegetation is gum trees not the Myrtle found predominately in the west.

[Keepleft]

Mcnews scribbled:-

A solid barrier would generally involve much slower decleration as the vehicle would have slid along it somewhat rather than being grabbed violently by the wire barriers.

Ehh what???

You know the dynamics of each and every crash for this barriers 'whole of road applications'???

Jersey - deflects - with much greater g-force a vehicle that impacts it, pure and simple. Traditional steel guardrail less so, but deflection is still greater than that of wire rope, and guardrail remains banned in some US states whilst wire-rope systems now begin to outnumber guardrail per miles installed.

For a motorist, an impact is wire-rope barrier is simply safer than the other two systems in use.

The EU is in the process of banning wire rope barriers altogether and many countries have done so already.

What you will see is the requirement for add-on lower facia. The wire rope manufacturers have it - but it is up to the respective highways agency to fund the extra add-ons.

I honestly can't see how any remotely intelligent person can envisage them being a good idea.

The reality is that wire rope barriers, particularly down the medians have saved numerous lives, you see some big impacts with these, and each with the potential of having run into oncoming traffic - through the grassy median or median scrub.

Whilst M/C's love Jersey, it will *NEVER* be 'the norm', it would kill more car and truck drivers through its non-giving nature (greater G) and by deflecting many impacting vehicles back into the path of other traffic, is ugly and not suited to the environment, so its on-road application is for critical 'spot' treatments only, where the median is so narrow that NO deflection can be allowed.

The balance will be modded wire-rope for critical points and modified guardrail.

We will not generally leave key freeway medians unbarriered, that is not appropriate, though 'some' M/C's have asked this.


At the end of the day, in balance, motorcycles represent some 2.2% of registrations, perhaps to be generous for a total 9% of all travel. Things must therefore be balanced.

[mcnews]

I have slid down a racetrack at over 150km/h and got up without a scratch.

It is roadside furniture that kills people. And any addition to roadside furniture in my mind is idiotic.

[tex]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

The barrier shown is not Brifen or Flexfence (Each has differing technical design and characteristics, one brand it is argued has much less cable seperation potential), anyhow, seems a 'local' job done to replace old chainlink fencing you can see in the pics.

I'll find out who and where.

What the agency has done, it appears, is to use traditional guardrail support columns and seemingly has 'copied' the concept as guardrail/chamlink replacement.

I'd bet, without particular crash testing. We'll see.

You don't have to look far to find the same design installed all over Tassie.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by mcnews

I have slid down a racetrack at over 150km/h and got up without a scratch.

It is roadside furniture that kills people. And any addition to roadside furniture in my mind is idiotic.

"Roadside furniture" - a key element is the 'ugly' power pole, but that includes street signs, columns or poles used to support advertising, benches etc and so on. Motorcyclists are vulnerable and will always remain so in such collision or in collisions with other traffic. Its a risk you need to decide on for yourself, but don't advocate removing a system that *does* function, well, for the majority of registration categories.

"Protective barrier" in highway design, for key argument - is used to prevent crossover crashes on divided roads. Some jurisdictions use it along the edges of highways in favour of having you collide with trees, trees have a similar effect as power poles.

We will *never* raise intercity dual carriageways speed-limits without first ensuring median barrier is 'norm', for at least one side of the road where median is less than 10m, and in my view out to 50m minimum.

At the end of day, more lives are saved by median barrier application than if the barriers did not exist, you will note *every* EU motorway utilises median barrier 4.0 - out to 100m (100m GB).

Something good comes along, and it is tested and passes, it shall be used.

[mcnews]

And yes in a perfect world we would have underground power. Street signs that are flexible, benches would not be near the road. These are all design faults that are easily avoided.

Putting them in the too hard basket is just an easy cop out for administrators and the road safety lobby that have no concern for motorcyclists and no understanding of the issues that confront motorcyclists.

I do like your line that it gets tested and then proves good so it will get used. That is until it is proven that is in fact not a good thing, like wire rope barriers, and thus more forward thinking establishments realise the error of their ways by implementing corrective steps such as soft barriers over the top of the wire rope barriers or removing them altogether. Lots of things have been deemed good only for more enlightened people to then prove bad.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

"Protective barrier" in highway design, for key argument - is used to prevent crossover crashes on divided roads. Some jurisdictions use it along the edges of highways in favour of having you collide with trees, trees have a similar effect as power poles.

We will *never* raise intercity dual carriageways speed-limits without first ensuring median barrier is 'norm', for at least one side of the road where median is less than 10m, and in my view out to 50m minimum.

At the end of day, more lives are saved by median barrier application than if the barriers did not exist, you will note *every* EU motorway utilises median barrier 4.0 - out to 100m (100m GB).

Something good comes along, and it is tested and passes, it shall be used.

I can't understand why trees aren't cleared from roadsides - or barriers as an alternative. Here is a Czech Republic road addressing both roadside tree and crossover issues (with two different barrier types):

[R0BD0G]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

looks better now...h8 the lights...and the front

[XRQTOR]

Originally Posted by mcnews

I have slid down a racetrack at over 150km/h and got up without a scratch.

It is roadside furniture that kills people. And any addition to roadside furniture in my mind is idiotic.

Normally it's the sudden stop that kill's, ever seen what someone look's like after they have bounced off a solid object at 15o+ click's.

If you came off your bike on the freeway either way your in trouble, your either going to hit the wire rope fence or bounce off the concrete wall and slide back into the traffic stream. And based on sheer number's (Car's vs Bike's & car accidents vs Bike accidents) the wire rope fence will save more motorist's lifes than it'd claim from motorcyclists.

[Sledgehammer]

Its interesting to see the tyres that are on the car for a competitive road stage, I would have thought it logical to use an R spec race tyre to improve grip and handling. May be mistaken but they dont look like race rubber to me.

[Dave_Waxit]

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer

Its interesting to see the tyres that are on the car for a competitive road stage, I would have thought it logical to use an R spec race tyre to improve grip and handling. May be mistaken but they dont look like race rubber to me.

My thoughts as well............they look like old T/A's or Posi-Tractions.

Maybe they are new technology with a retro tread for use on historic cars ?

Mind you if it was broken suspension at high speed on turn in, nothing would save you.

Cheers
Dave.

[troppobob]

Targa Tas cars are restricted to one set of tyres for the whole 2000km of the event and the worst conditions are expected on the final days run down the west coast from Burnie to Hobart. Makes competitors stay away from comp/race tyres

[Keepleft]

new2ford - I can't understand why trees aren't cleared from roadsides - or barriers as an alternative. Here is a Czech Republic road addressing both roadside tree and crossover issues (with two different barrier types):

That Czech median barrier is Brifen brand.
http://www.brifen.co.uk/

Anyhow, tree removal = cost, add this in to the 600k plus road network in NSW.

Typically we try for nine metres (Ref Prof. Joubet, Staysafe 1985) on major highways/routes, but as we know not always does this occure.

Originally Posted by new2ford

I can't understand why trees aren't cleared from roadsides - or barriers as an alternative. Here is a Czech Republic road addressing both roadside tree and crossover issues (with two different barrier types):

No breakdown lane :(

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by BlackLS

No breakdown lane :(

I don't know the reason for this at this particular location, very unusual, perhaps topography or something. You can see a more typical representation here (if you can get your eyes off the Public Relations Manager ):

http://www.rsd.cz/rsd/rsd.nsf/Edit/I...service&lng=EN

Normally they have huge sealed verges which also serve a purpose that most Australian drivers have no cognisance of: on single lane roads when somebody comes up behind you wanting to pass, you observe that fact in your rearview mirror (the glass reflecting thing inside the windscreen that Australian drivers don't use) and move over into the verge area so that the person can pass without having to go onto the opposite side of the road. (Called European driving alertness vs Australian vagueness! )

[Bucket]

Better than going over the edge in a Fiberglass car methinks

[Pedro]

[QUOTE=Keepleft
..... At the end of the day, in balance, motorcycles represent some 2.2% of registrations, perhaps to be generous for a total 9% of all travel. Things must therefore be balanced.[/QUOTE]


Unfortunately the statistics for motorcyclists are terrible. In Queensland it's reported that they represent 3% of registrations, but 30% of road fatalities.

Footnote: Allover, road fatalities in Queensland are up around 70 more than for the same period last year, so the Beattie government is going to install more speed cameras. Another demonstation that we are governed by inept imbeciles.

[mcnews]

Can KeepLeft tell us all who pays him to go around forums posting this type of propaganda?

Which government agency pays his internet bills?

[Keepleft]

Mcnews scribbled - Can KeepLeft tell us all who pays him to go around forums posting this type of propaganda?

I was wondering the same thing about the anti barrier campaigners, the activists of this subject, you go one way in opinion - I go the other, and in political outcome, I'll win:-)

Which government agency pays his internet bills?

Me, personally, this means *not you*.

I am a member of bucket loads of road and vehicle forums, based here and OS, not just relating to transport either. I post when or if I have the time or inclination. I'm not in this for 'money'.

I look after the sick and dying first, deal as advocate (nag) for road transport and in infrustructure funding, and improved road and vehicle safety 'standards', regulations etc. Indeed, things that I take an interest in are typically safety related and so promoted, per my Sig for example. I write specific subject text for driver handbooks here and OS. Advocate at UN via working parties etc on road and vehicle harmonisation items.

I won't ask about you.

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer

Its interesting to see the tyres that are on the car for a competitive road stage, I would have thought it logical to use an R spec race tyre to improve grip and handling. May be mistaken but they dont look like race rubber to me.

I reckon they are most likely crossplys made by either Hoosier or American Racing.

[xbgs351]

Does anybody have a photo of Eric Bana's crashed XB? I recall that it crashed on the same stage and in a very similar fashion to the Corvette, but instead of hitting a wire barrier, the XB hit a tree. It would be interesting to compare the damage between the two cars.

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

The barrier shown is not Brifen or Flexfence (Each has differing technical design and characteristics, one brand it is argued has much less cable seperation potential), anyhow, seems a 'local' job done to replace old chainlink fencing you can see in the pics.

Are those brands designed to stop "submarining" like what was occuring with the Corvette?

[Nikked]

thats ouchworthy, but under normal driving coditions i would rather hit wires then a big cement or steel thing with no give.

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

Does anybody have a photo of Eric Bana's crashed XB? I recall that it crashed on the same stage and in a very similar fashion to the Corvette, but instead of hitting a wire barrier, the XB hit a tree. It would be interesting to compare the damage between the two cars.

Not a large pic ... but here it is :

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Can KeepLeft tell us all who pays him to go around forums posting this type of propaganda?

Which government agency pays his internet bills?

If you'd been reading Keepleft's many posts mcnews you'd realise that he is hardly the mouthpiece for any of the conservative and reactionary road and traffic administrations around this country, rather to the contrary.

The only thing that gives me a sense of unease is that even one dead motorcyclist is one too many. I think the R&D path on these barriers still needs to proceed further.

[Pedro]

[QUOTE=new2ford]If you'd been reading Keepleft's many posts mcnews you'd realise that he is hardly the mouthpiece for any of the conservative and reactionary road and traffic administrations around this country, rather to the contrary.QUOTE]


I'll second that.

[MAGPIE]

I hate these type of barriers, I have personally seen two accidents where cars have gone right through them into the opposing traffic.

Here are some quotes from recent news articles in NZ

From a couple of months ago

Small Truck verse wire rope barrier...

The tanker, which was heading north, lost control and bounced over a wire median barrier into the fast lane of oncoming traffic, landing on and crushing a car.

And yesterday

Motorcyclist verse wire rope barrier...

said on 3 News last night that Mr Evans was following him when thrown from his machine and into the barrier.

"I stopped and raced back to the scene where it first happened and find that he has been severed, waist down, and was lying on the road

[new2ford]

^^
They must have a reasonably proven record otherwise they wouldn't be so widely used. I'm sure there's scope for improvement though.

Funny that since this thread was last alive I passed an accident on the M5 (Sydney) where a VW Golf (only a small low car) had somehow managed to surmount the wire and was strung up straddling across the top of it. At least it was stopped before crossing the median but I was surprised that it wasn't deflected. As for a truck I don't think much would stop that, certainly not armco.

[Keepleft]

MAGPIE wrote: - I hate these type of barriers, I have personally seen two accidents where cars have gone right through them into the opposing traffic.

I've seen reported one similar event where an emergency worker under the influence 'tripped' over one and landed in the path of an oncoming car which then ran over - killing him instantly (NSW Pacific Hwy Swansea).

No barrier is 100 failsafe against all impact events, you need to appreciate that reality for balance.

Here are some quotes from recent news articles in NZ from a couple of months ago:-

Small Truck verse wire rope barrier...
The tanker, which was heading north, lost control and bounced over a wire median barrier into the fast lane of oncoming traffic, landing on and crushing a car.

I can show similar results where we've had trucks and light vehicles that have impacted- then gone over into oncoming traffic when the central barrier was either jersey or W-beam guardrail.

Had many a death when impacting jersey, sometimes with holes 'punched' through it. Had someone killed on the M4 in NSW once when a vehicle impacted jersey sending a strut into the windscreen of an oncoming vehicle, killing that driver. No 100% failsafe barrier system, yet, sorry. Feel free to develop one.

REM too; - many a truck are indeed stopped by the two wire-rope brands, see their respective websites for picture examples. Each deems their product better than the other, naturally.

And yesterday, motorcyclist verse wire rope barrier:-
Said on 3 News last night that Mr Evans was following him when thrown from his machine and into the barrier.

"I stopped and raced back to the scene where it first happened and find that he has been severed, waist down, and was lying on the road".

One of the worlds first, the issue is not the 'wire' per se, but the support columns which take the brunt of hapless force, as the NZ trans head points out;

'But Transit's national operations manager, Dave Bates, denied there was much difference in cost between wire and steel barriers and said the main reason for using wire was its greater effectiveness in protecting most road users.

He could recall no previous deaths of motorcyclists hitting wire barriers and did not believe they would have much more of a chance against traditional W-section steel guard-rails.

Now, you will note ongoing EU development in standards to effectively soften the barrier 'columns', regardless of barrier type, a natural ongoing technical improvement. Patience.

Remember, on motorway class roads the median barrier is to prevent or restrict cross-over potential, by in large they do a great job of that. Removal from that criteria will allow once again more cross-over events and more deaths, injuries and cost.

MC's I again point out represent 2.2% of registrations and at most 10% of all trips, that doesn't mean authorities don't love you and recognise you are a vulnerable group.

Some reading:- Pdf 3.98mb -

"A European Agenda for Motorcycle
Safety - The Motorcyclists’ Point of View".

http://www.fema.ridersrights.org/docs/EAMS2007.pdf
Suggested reading page 44 on.

Read also the 267kb Pdf attachment:- "GB - Advisory Group on Motorcycling: Final Report to Government 2004". Page 22 on to see similar barrier improvement development etc.

See also UNECE Trans for updated development.