Speed Kills - Rubbish - from Motor.... - Page 2

outback_ute · 11-01-2006, 01:34 PM

Micky T makes a lot of very valid points, especially on driver training. If you compare the driver licencing system in this country with either the European countries where it costs thousands to get your licence or even many work-related licensing/training requirements, it is an utter joke. I would argue that speed can/does kill if you are driving too fast for the conditions, but that it is really secondary - it still comes back to the driver and many would not recognize they are putting themselves in a dangerous position because they have NFI (no f idea) .

Most or all fatal accidents are investigated, the speed box may be ticked but I believe that virtually all accidents are caused by the following:
1. Lack of concentration
2. Lack of training – you see drivers on the road with absolutely no idea…
3. Risk taking ie people “pushing” things and going beyond the limit rather than plain stuff-ups
4. Fatigue
5. Drugs & alcohol

parawolf · 11-01-2006, 01:35 PM

now thats being pedantic

gtfpv · 11-01-2006, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

Your statement has one major flaw. Speed = distance over time. 20km/h is a speed. You say you would rather hit a tree at 20 than 100, even though 20 is a speed, you are saying that at 20 it would not kill you. If we assume you are right, the peed does no kill. What does kill is the impact, and the forces that you hit with. The force increases with speed/momentum.

Speed in and of itself does not kill - if it did, then everyone who ever moved would die immeditely, as speed is the measure of distance over time.

i agree with you . but are we talking about an article in a road related magazine which relate to driving a car in real conditions or something trvelling through a vacuum in space for eternity.

Mack 6 · 11-01-2006, 01:39 PM

OH, EXCUSE ME,
but the NT does have speed limits... especially in towns.
Those BBBIIIGGG long stretches of road have no limit, but people are encouraged to not over extend themselves. And if you drive within limits, it's pretty hard for a competent driver to swerve off the straight. A few years back they imposed a 100kmh limit on the road from erldunda to Ayers Rock (ie off the stuart hwy which is unlimited) The reason, the road was not the best with a few windy bits, and crashes were occuring so the limited it.
A little off topic I know but basically there is still a lot of accident in the territory because of the speed, but not having anything but red dirt and scrub either side of the road helps people to survive. (and what trees there are, are pretty smart and pull out of the way of oncoming traffic anyway)

gtfpv · 11-01-2006, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Micky T makes a lot of very valid points, especially on driver training. If you compare the driver licencing system in this country with either the European countries where it costs thousands to get your licence or even many work-related licensing/training requirements, it is an utter joke. I would argue that speed can/does kill if you are driving too fast for the conditions, but that it is really secondary - it still comes back to the driver and many would not recognize they are putting themselves in a dangerous position because they have NFI (no f idea) .

Most or all fatal accidents are investigated, the speed box may be ticked but I believe that virtually all accidents are caused by the following:
1. Lack of concentration
2. Lack of training – you see drivers on the road with absolutely no idea…
3. Risk taking ie people “pushing” things and going beyond the limit rather than plain stuff-ups
4. Fatigue
5. Drugs & alcohol

good points but humans make mistakes and always will regardless how inteligent they are . and controling speeding will lessen the cosiquences of those mistakes. but they are all just as important as slowing down which everyone seems to disagree on.

rag top · 11-01-2006, 01:46 PM

I was taught that speed doesn't kill, Deceleration does....

gtfpv · 11-01-2006, 01:47 PM

i give up im off to the docs to buy some valium . i hope when my kids are old enough to drive i can convince them that driving to fast will increase the likely hood of a serious accident and that when they feel like driving fast they can go hire a race track or drag strip . instead of listening to some diiick down the pub whinghing that he shouldn't of been booked for speeding on the way home from his midnight shift because there was no cars on the road anyway.

AnthonyQLD · 11-01-2006, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stampy

Why would you want to hit a Tree anyway

Thats what is was thinking

xbgs351 · 11-01-2006, 01:57 PM

Road design is also extremely important.

Blue Oval Mopar Man · 11-01-2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtfpv

if it was raining and a kid run out in front of my car i would naturaly swerve . if i didnt and there was witnesses i would be charged with murder. so if iwas doing 60kms an hour odds are id stop . if i was speeding say 90kms an hour i might not stop and run off the road and hit a tree. or even if iwas doing 60 i still might lose traction and hit a tree in this case the speeding would have a higher chance of killing myself and the pedestrian.
at the end of the day speed kills. and human error will always happen . it is better if it happens at slower speeds than higher ones .

Ok By your way of thinking , if you have a crash at 30kph which was your fault you will be pi55ed at your self that you were not only doing 20 ? There are ""SOME"" instances where speed was the "MAJOR" contributing factor but to say all single vehicle accidents are speed related is just a waste of breath! The number of people out there that would not be able to recognise a change in road condition , simply because they are looking for it and have never be taught to look for it is more dangerous than anyone doing 10 kph above a speed limit !

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtfpv

now that motorcross driver that was killed at 150kms an hour last week i think the speed was probably the highest contributing factor combined with his human error that contributed to his death .

If your refering to Andy Caldecott , then that is pure stupidity on your part ! He was in a race and was taking the risk "KNOWING FULL WELL " this my happen ! Every time I enter a motor sports event I realise it my be the end because I am prepared to take that risk! The aim of most motor sports is to be the fastest to complete the task at hand !

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtfpv

now single vehicle fatalities almost always involve excessive speeding.

Did you know that only 30 % of crashes involve alcohol ! So by your way of thinking , 70% of crashes happen becuase of sobber drivers ??????

While I realise you had some bad luck with motor vehicles a few months back , it doesnt mean every crash happens the same way as your incedents ! Dont take this the wrong way as Im not having a go at you I just dont agree with a few of your thoughts !

Blue Oval Mopar Man · 11-01-2006, 02:32 PM

jeez I managed to stuff up that quote some how ! :yeees:

guym · 11-01-2006, 02:32 PM

I haven't read all the article, but only have to read the first 2 paragraphs to know its total load of rot. Firstly we don't live in a vacumm on the planet. We have wind that will also move a car. Also there isn't a road on the planet that doesn't have camber, just not possible to build a road without some camber no matter how small.

clontarf_x · 11-01-2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xbgs351

Elite marathon runners run at over 20 km/h.

Sprinters can run at 42 km/h.

thanks to you I just had a mental image of a sprinter running 42km/hr into a massive bluegum

xbgs351 · 11-01-2006, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clontarf_x

thanks to you I just had a mental image of a sprinter running 42km/hr into a massive bluegum

Unless your name is Maurice Green or Donovan Bailey you should be safe.

DivHunter · 11-01-2006, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xbgs351

Unless your name is Maurice Green or Donovan Bailey you should be safe.

I would pay to see them sprint into a tree, more exciting than a race.

Josh_XC · 11-01-2006, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stampy

Why would you want to hit a Tree anyway

LOL smart ИИИИ

Deadman · 11-01-2006, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i hope when my kids are old enough to drive i can convince them that driving to fast will increase the likely hood of a serious accident and that when they feel like driving fast they can go hire a race track or drag strip . instead of listening to some diiick down the pub whinghing that he shouldn't of been booked for speeding on the way home from his midnight shift because there was no cars on the road anyway.

Then you might always want to tell them that 80% of accidents happen at speeds below the posted speed limit. (got that info a while back from KeepLeft)

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...4&page=1&pp=25 (an interesting thread already on this topic somewhat with some very good points)

Speed does not kill. Unskilled drivers do.

The Autobahn also has the lowest fatality rate of any roads in Germany - it is also (as we all know) the fastest road in Germany. The NT has some of the fastest (un-speed zoned) roads in this country - um, how many fatalities were there this Christmas? 0???

"Speed Kills" talk is rubish. There are countless facts (many pointed out in the above thread) that show speed does not kill. If speed killed - The Autobahn would be one fatality after the other. It's not. The topic and issue is way more complicated than than just "Speed Kills". Speed might be a factor in an accident, amoung with many other factors - but often won't be the cause of the accident.

It's also rather amusing to assume that 'speeding' is traveling about what the government indicates is the speed safe for a particular road. I have seen areas where speed limits are way to high for the conditions of the road - but if an accident happened there at the posted speed limit - the driver wouldn't be 'speeding' - but IMO would be driving way to fast for the condition of the road. Then of course - doing 105km/h on a clear 100km/h section of freeway would be 'speeding' - but much safer than doing 80km/h in some of the 80km/h areas that should be closer to 60km/h.

Anyhow, it's a complex subject and it's healthy to have so much debate over it.

Deadman · 11-01-2006, 03:42 PM

Sorry for the typos etc in the above post - editted it rather quickly to add some extra stuff and now I can't change my typos :(

Oh, and I'm not upset or anything if it sounds that way (judging by the below post ;)) - I was just in a rush and tried to get it all out.

I just think having a healthy discussion about it is good

And I'm not saying I have all the answers or anything and 100% right, no-one ever is really - I'm open to all arguments and valid points

(it's just that we never hear any of that from the government ;) )

PEACE

Sourbastard · 11-01-2006, 03:42 PM

Calm down folks.

The slogan "Speed Kills" is just that. A Slogan. It can be taken literally through an argument in the laws of newtonian physics through a series of Jerks and Yanks, or Yanking Jerks or Jerks that are Yanks or it can be taken figuratively to mean "As your speed increases so does your potential for a fatal accident."

Now that figurative statement relies on many variables, area you are speeding in, road condition, traffic, pedestrians, weather, the capabilities of the driver speeding. That can also not be argued with.

150kph on a race track, is a far different kettle of fish then 150kph in a back street. The race track is designed to minimize the variables that could get you killed to enable you to speed. You wont find a 6 year old chasing a ball on the track during Sandown.

The question here is one of emphasis. The government focusses on the speed of accidents and therefore can justify its investment in speed cameras. The writer of the article believes the emphasis should be on driver training causing the accidents, rather then something as politically motivated as just saying "Speed Did It"

I on the other hand believe noone should be driving except me.
Once I have removed John Howard from power through a popular revolution and crown myself as Emporer of Australia, I assure you, that this law will be passed in quick fashion.

xbgs351 · 11-01-2006, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Calm down folks.

Now that figurative statement relies on many variables, area you are speeding in, road condition, traffic, pedestrians, weather, the capabilities of the driver speeding. That can also not be argued with.

150kph on a race track, is a far different kettle of fish then 150kph in a back street. The race track is designed to minimize the variables that could get you killed to enable you to speed. You wont find a 6 year old chasing a ball on the track during Sandown.

.

How about 150km/h between Deniliquin and Jerilderie?

falcon91 · 11-01-2006, 03:50 PM

My last input to this thread.
Imagine if you will ' No speed limits anywhere' Like some people would like to see, I for one would'nt step out my front door.
Maybe I should put on a hat and drive a Volvo. (Although one of those
S80 T6 would be OK)

Sourbastard · 11-01-2006, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xbgs351

How about 150km/h between Deniliquin and Jerilderie?

How about 150kph between here and the fridge?
Ill race you.

As I said, and you missed, it depends on the area as well. You dont usually find 6 year olds running around with balls on an unlimited road in the NT and your visibility is usually less restricted.

rodderz · 11-01-2006, 03:53 PM

When my kids are in their early teens, I'll be teaching them how to drive on some form of private property to get used to a car 1st of all and have opportunities for lots of practise, then they'll be getting more than a couple of lessons, before enrolling in an advanced drivers course once they get their P's. This was a fortunate thing that I have done myself and believe it's the best way to go about it (as long as you dont get taught by a driver with bad habits)

The licensing system now is a joke. Get some answers right and go on a well-practised driving route and get the card with your photo on it. Even the instructor told me "we teach you to pass the test"

I think mickey T had a point, charge more for the test, but that extra $$ could be allocated towards a mandatory part of the test which involves a fully comprehensive driver training course and education program, with a test. People will whinge at the cost, but they need a license dont they? And will be better off for it too (so will the rest of us)

Mack 6 · 11-01-2006, 03:58 PM

I know that sourbastard kills... I seen it happen.

If you listen to him in person, you can enter a coma from the ramblings.

As emperor he will bring back the death penalty (you have to walk in front of his XP doing top speed (10kmh))

AnthonyQLD · 11-01-2006, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourbastard

As I said, and you missed, it depends on the area as well. You dont usually find 6 year olds running around with balls on an unlimited road in the NT and your visibility is usually less restricted.

Thats right in the NT on the unlimited speed roads you can see for Km's and Km's down the road. and for most of it you can see a fair way either side of the road. So it is not very often that you would get surprised by anything.

Steffo · 11-01-2006, 04:01 PM

Population of Australia: 20,090,437 (July 2005 est) Link Here

Population of Germany: 82,431,390 (July 2005 est) Link Here

Now a few issues back, in Wheels I'm pretty sure, they were doing this statistic thing... deaths per 1000 people or something. Anyway, Australia (110km/h national limit except NT) and Germany (unlimited speed autobahns) had the SAME FIGURE. Both were at 8.0/1000. Why is it that a country with 4x the population of Australia has the same amount of deaths per 1000 population on the road. Says alot about how bad our road toll is in comparison.

Even farther back they had the head of AMG here, I think it was Wheels again, driving Sydney - Canberra. Hume Highway, 110km/h. He was saying that in Germany they didn't have this "Every 2 hours, stop, revive, survive," thing. He was saying something like... the speed limit here is so low that it puts you to sleep driving for longer periods of time! He was saying that when you're going 220km/h as opposed to 110, you're far more alert and paying far greater attention to what's going on around you.

Then there was in the paper how many people died on the roads over xmas and/or new years this year... and, correct me if I'm wrong, but in NT (with unlimited speed roads) - 0 deaths! I think NSW and Victoria (the most policed states) were the worst!

Being a recent product of the NSW licencing system, I can tell you first hand, they expect you to know stuff all! Stop at red lights, go when its green, stop side of the road, reverse park without hitting the kerb or parked cars and three point turn without hitting the kerb. That's it, you're then a fully qualified driver.... plus they seem to teach you that as long as you're going the speed limit, everything will be OK. Uhm... yeah right.

I guess its been said a million times over, but I'll say it again... something needs to be done... proper defensive driver training would be an excellent start. And on huge roads that are straight for a long amount of time, nice and smooth... a bit more then 110km/h wouldn't hurt...

Sourbastard · 11-01-2006, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mack 6

I know that sourbastard kills... I seen it happen.

If you listen to him in person, you can enter a coma from the ramblings.

As emperor he will bring back the death penalty (you have to walk in front of his XP doing top speed (10kmh))

be good or uncle bastard smack.

xbgs351 · 11-01-2006, 04:17 PM

At the very least defensive driving courses should be mandatory.

Casper · 11-01-2006, 04:21 PM

We all seem to agree that defensive driver courses should be mandatory.. So how many people here did one on their P plates?
I still have the certificate to prove I did! I have also done refresher courses since.

I agree, the cgovernment is hopeless about this stuff, I for one took matters into my own hands rather than just complaining though... hopefully a few of us have doen the same.

DOC · 11-01-2006, 04:22 PM

Looks like a hot topic with many views, and in general keeping with the theme i would agree and have said it's not speed that kills, if people drive to thier ability, to the ability of the car and the current road / weather conditions are taken into account then all should be fine.

To clarify further road conditions would take into effect schools / residential areas and main roads etc and yes there should be for everyones saftey a suggested speed in these area's

Also as a persons ability, a brand new person behind the wheel should also have some restrictions , which they have with thier P plates and probably dont ( in most cases as i know everyone has different ability ) say drive a high performance charriot at high speeds for saftey reasons

To be fair there are a lot of so called weekend supercar drivers of all ages that should not be behind the wheel of a mini at best so its not age related.

Perhaps a license system similar to bikes where you are given a license to ride a higher powered bike may be a better option and if you abuse it down in grade you go.

Im in some way in favour of speed camara's but not in thier current form as i like most only see these as nothing more than revenue raisers, they are often placed where they catch the average jo blo going a little over and thus not focusing on thier intent, or claims they are there to save lives

If they were to place all funds raised from these camera's back into better roads then it would be a different story.

I also believe some speed limits are way out whack with all this poly talk and guy guy stuff, we used to be able to and still can run at 110kph up to the vic border on crappy roads ( parts fixed now ) then hit Vic but down to 100kph on great roads ?

I also agree with comments regarding spending more on driver education and support for those new drivers and believe the gov could do more to suppliment this so all kids can access this and combined with better roads and dose of common sense and things would be better.