Newsflash: Front Wheel Drive is rubbish!

[ebxr8240]

Well I have driven the NEW Taurus and I tell you it is NOT rubbish...
I drove the G.M similar car across U.S the G6 http://www.pontiac.com/g6/
Then I drove the Taurus from Naperville to New York a good 15 hours each way...
The Taurus has come along away since it was last here...
The cars I drive at home are 07 WRX, 95 WRX, EB Falcon,ED Turbo Fairmont, Holden Rodeo [work veh] and at times a BFXR6...

What I did find annoying with G6 is the traction control come in when pushing it hard through corners.. I guess your not supposed to push then quite that hard...Well?? It's either traction control or stability control ?? Lol..
The mountains through Colorado are a top cruise...

[max_torq]

Actually the Fiat X1/9 did exactly that, took the Fiat 128 FWD driveline and put it into the rear of a sports car. And made one of the best handling road cars ever! There's nothing like buzzing around tight roundabout with the engine a foot away from your head. MR2s are are copy of the idea and may do similar. X1/9 also have a huge luggage capacity for a tiny car.

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by max_torq

Actually the Fiat X1/9 did exactly that, took the Fiat 128 FWD driveline and put it into the rear of a sports car. And made one of the best handling road cars ever! There's nothing like buzzing around tight roundabout with the engine a foot away from your head. MR2s are are copy of the idea and may do similar. X1/9 also have a huge luggage capacity for a tiny car.

Yes an old GF had a Fiat sport with a whole 1000cc engine..
Along long time ago...Aha
You learnt the Scandinavian flick in those cars....
Often thought of building a tuff fwd transaxle and fitting it in the rear of a light car myself.. It would be strictly off road tho...

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by snappy

I dont think rear engine falcon would work , I you want a idea of a car for the future. I seen it some where on telly no idea who's idea it is or who made it.

But bascally they had a platform That had interchanble bodies .
So say today you need a ute you drop that shell on to that platform and away you go . Next day people mover lift the ute off drom the suv/van shell on again away you go
So you coud have all these varients on one platform in your own shed . Tell me that would not be handy

Car of the future? You could do this with a Ford Model T


Rear engined passenger cars have been done as well; The Chevrolet Corvair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvair

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Rear engined passenger cars have been done as well; The Chevrolet Corvair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvair

Family roadtrip porn right there. If i ever see one of these on the road i think i will fall to the ground immediately and die laughing. I'm not saying they are a bad car, i don't know anything about them really, but that is the ugliest ball sack of a vehicle i have ever witnessed.

EDIT: Mum looks hot though. When the shame of riding around in that monster gets too much for her i'll give her a lift back to civilization :

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by ken2903

Family roadtrip porn right there. If i ever see one of these on the road i think i will fall to the ground immediately and die laughing. I'm not saying they are a bad car, i don't know anything about them really, but that is the ugliest ball sack of a vehicle i have ever witnessed.

EDIT: Mum looks hot though. When the shame of riding around in that monster gets too much for her i'll give her a lift back to civilization :

Wow what a machine! I didn't even see that pic. That thing is based on the corvair, but the standard version was a competitor for the first Falcon in the states. It got an entire chapter devodted to it in Ralph Naders "Unsafe at any speed" book.

[banarcus]

Originally Posted by chevypower

I think Rear-wheel-drive is such a buzz term in Australia, people would prefer a Kingswood to a sophisticated Taurus SHO. Yet it's ok for Audi or Subaru to have AWD based on FWD layout because they are good no matter what. But the real reason we want RWD Falcons is for burnouts. Americans should just forget they suck in the snow right? I mean you go to Mt Buller once every few years..you know what it's like, it's not that bad right?

Mate, you hit the nail on the head. RWD cars are what most Aussie blokes grew up with when they were kids and therefore purchase down the track. But, as the large car segment(and its RWD format) dwindles, enthusiasts will keep their RWD cars while the rest of the car driving public move on. Enthusiasts and the motor media will cry. Unfortunately, Aussies will lose jobs.

I see nothing wrong with the new American Taurus, it looks a lot better than the one Australia received in the '90s. If it is economic to own and run and has similar proportions to the Falcon, I see no reason why it cannot replace the Falcon in a shrinking segment. Marketing will be a challenge locally because if it isn't a Falcon, the dealers aren't interested. Ford here would probably call it a Falcon anyway to solve that problem.

Ford, I guess, will have to ask themselves whether it is viable investing money in a car that apart from the antipodes, doesn't exist anywhere else. With tariffs here coming down and a free trade agreement with the United States, it only makes sense for the One Ford plan and dump the Falcon and import the Taurus for masses and the Mustang for the enthusiasts.

[dannyhilton]

A well tuned FWD platform is much better than a horribly sorted RWD one. A purist will always pick a RWD, and for good reason, but FWD is a great alternative for 90% of the car buying public. It's more space efficient, the design weighs less, there is less intrusion in the rear foot room area and with the weight loss comes better efficiency. Tune it right, and it's a great formula. While my heart wants Ford to keep the Falcon RWD, at the end of the day the advantages of FWD I think will push away RWD in many cases IMO. And for those who love a proper sports car, who's to say Ford can't give us an AWD Falcon?

And for the record, FWD isn't crap, it's all in the setup of the car. Because Toyota make their Camry for people who don't give a rats behind about driving pleasure, doesn't mean a FWD Honda Accord Euro will handle like a boat. As mentioned above, it's a wonderful car to drive. FWD may never be what RWD if, but it's a bloody good alternative is done right...

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by dannyhilton

A well tuned FWD platform is much better than a horribly sorted RWD one. A purist will always pick a RWD, and for good reason, but FWD is a great alternative for 90% of the car buying public. It's more space efficient, the design weighs less, there is less intrusion in the rear foot room area and with the weight loss comes better efficiency. Tune it right, and it's a great formula. While my heart wants Ford to keep the Falcon RWD, at the end of the day the advantages of FWD I think will push away RWD in many cases IMO. And for those who love a proper sports car, who's to say Ford can't give us an AWD Falcon?

And for the record, FWD isn't crap, it's all in the setup of the car. Because Toyota make their Camry for people who don't give a rats behind about driving pleasure, doesn't mean a FWD Honda Accord Euro will handle like a boat. As mentioned above, it's a wonderful car to drive. FWD may never be what RWD if, but it's a bloody good alternative is done right...

Exactly.
FWD is not rubbish. It does have its flaws but it isn't anywhere near as bad as some say. The problem here is most people look at the camry factor and not at what a decently set up FWD can do, i.e. Renault Megane, VW Golf, Ford Focus, Honda Accord Euro, Ford Mondeo, etc. All are very capable FWD cars, easily able to handle the daily routine for 90% of the population.

Sure RWD is fun and it has its place, I have had a couple of them and enjoyed them but daily runs and the odd mountain pass really made the difference a moot point. I actually have a XR5T and around the mountain ranges and tight roads, it handles a lot better than my old BF2 XR8, a lot more confident turn in and exit out of the corner.
It does come down to preference, but to blanket label all FWD rubbish is simply childish when many will embarrass some hero RWD cars.

[duaned]

[tranquilized]

The way I see it, from a drivers point of view, RWD is better than FWD every time. Comparing a Focus XR5 with an XR8 isn't fair - one is a bigger and heavier car. I'd be more interested in hearing how an XR5 goes against something like a BMW 130i - apples for apples.

The only advantages to FWD are sensible, practical ones - like interior space and fuel economy. If, like the majority of the population, you dont care (and will never know) how your car behaves towards the limit, these practical considerations understandably take preference.

So yeah, FWD has its place, no doubt. But from an enthusiasts point of view, RWD is king.

And another point - an AWD Falcon based on a FWD Taurus is not an acceptable performance alternative to RWD. It will still handle just like a FWD, albeit with a higher level of capability. And of course, no more V8's

[ebxr8240]

I can see an AWD v8.. We have the layout in the Terri minus the V8..
The very reason I have Subaru's is I don't like FWD vehicles..
Understeer no thanks...

[cosmo20btt]

I cannot believe the rubbish on this site in regards to RWD to FWD, in all the years of working and driving cars, I have never driven a FWD that is better than a RWD, Aussies that accept this pontificating are just digging a hole for all Australian workers in the manufacturing section, as I have stated before Taurus is no good for Australian conditions as our climate will kill these cars, Taurus sales will lag behind Aurion as no one thats out west will want one, if they did then Aurion sales would be a lot higher than they are now. Ford will be forcing people that would normally buy a Falcon to tow with an suv style car instead which means more profits for them not cheaper options for Australians. I think Ford should run the Taurus side by side in sales against Falcon and let the public decide, OH thats right, they did not like the answer last time did they?

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

The way I see it, from a drivers point of view, RWD is better than FWD every time. Comparing a Focus XR5 with an XR8 isn't fair - one is a bigger and heavier car. I'd be more interested in hearing how an XR5 goes against something like a BMW 130i - apples for apples.

Check youtube, 135i vs Focus RS

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by Wretched

FWD is not rubbish. It does have its flaws but it isn't anywhere near as bad as some say. The problem here is most people look at the camry factor and not at what a decently set up FWD can do, i.e. Renault Megane, VW Golf, Ford Focus, Honda Accord Euro, Ford Mondeo, etc. All are very capable FWD cars, easily able to handle the daily routine for 90% of the population.

Back to the OP's point about large cars + FWD = fail - in smaller, lower powered cars, the shortcomings of FWD are better hidden. The fact is there are few small cars with RWD. Small cars are usually about lower purchase cost, lower fuel costs and less about performance. Use FWD on a larger 6 cyl car, and it starts to unravel. Most of the FWD platforms run 4 and 6 cyl drivetrains. The Falcon and Commodore start with 6 cyl and then go up to turbo 6 and 8 cyl drivetrains. Put FWD on a car with that weight and power and people driving it will start singing that Lonely Island song - "I'm on a M.... F..... boat......". 300HP and FWD and they have to employ all sorts of tricks to make it work. Get closer to 400HP and you will see few if any cars running FWD. They will be RWD or AWD.

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

I cannot believe the rubbish on this site in regards to RWD to FWD, in all the years of working and driving cars, I have never driven a FWD that is better than a RWD, Aussies that accept this pontificating are just digging a hole for all Australian workers in the manufacturing section, as I have stated before Taurus is no good for Australian conditions as our climate will kill these cars, Taurus sales will lag behind Aurion as no one thats out west will want one, if they did then Aurion sales would be a lot higher than they are now. Ford will be forcing people that would normally buy a Falcon to tow with an suv style car instead which means more profits for them not cheaper options for Australians. I think Ford should run the Taurus side by side in sales against Falcon and let the public decide, OH thats right, they did not like the answer last time did they?

Hmm. What rot. There's more than three brands of car on sale in Australia, one of which is Japanese and the other two American. I think you'll find the production runs of Camrys and Aurions combined would kill those of the two American companies, as well as the export capacities. That's not a comment on quality or anything else (though Toyota do thrash the other two on build quality), its a comment on demand.

Also - what crap about 'Australian conditions'. It's 40 years since that was relevant. Discerning towers already use Prados, Landcuisers, Patrols and Pajeros far more than mediocre rear wheel drive Aussie built cars. Have you actually stepped outside lately?

[kezzer]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Personally I'd love to see an AWD Falcon.. Just image an AWD coyte SC Falcon!! Game over, as it would be the best car on the road!!

How much fun at the lights with V8, SC, AWD & DSC??

How would this be fun at all??

awd is stale, rwd is a much funner experience, not to mention it will add wieght and higher fuel bills.

no thanks. :

[kezzer]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

Hmm. What rot. There's more than three brands of car on sale in Australia, one of which is Japanese and the other two American. I think you'll find the production runs of Camrys and Aurions combined would kill those of the two American companies, as well as the export capacities. That's not a comment on quality or anything else (though Toyota do thrash the other two on build quality), its a comment on demand.

They thrash GM and Ford for quality ehh?? You mean when the accelerator gets stuck and they 'thrash' into on coming traffic??

Export, combined 'sales' blah blah etc hardly matters in Australia, because its AUSTRALIA.

[388cube_edxr8]

Apologies if my OP was a little difficult to understand.

All FWD cars are not rubbish, but if you know your physics then you will agree that large FWD cars are dynamically unstable.

My theory was to move the motor and trans from the front to between the back of the rear seats and the rear axle. No extra manufacturing costs, just the initial development. It would be a sportsy family sedan, so Dad doesn't have to feel like a knob driving a Camry to work, and Mum can feel happy because he bought a practical car.

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

My theory was to move the motor and trans from the front to between the back of the rear seats and the rear axle.

Technically that would be mid not rear engined. Sorry if i was a little harsh before. I personally can't see it ever happening but independent thought should be nurtured not squashed.

[f1tzy]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Apologies if my OP was a little difficult to understand.

All FWD cars are not rubbish, but if you know your physics then you will agree that large FWD cars are dynamically unstable.

My theory was to move the motor and trans from the front to between the back of the rear seats and the rear axle. No extra manufacturing costs, just the initial development. It would be a sportsy family sedan, so Dad doesn't have to feel like a knob driving a Camry to work, and Mum can feel happy because he bought a practical car.

But how are they dynamically unstable? A rear engined car is dynamically unstable as there is no weight over the wheels that do all your steering and braking (Porshe 911's haven't always been a great car). Plus, how could you tow anything decent? Your car would be doing a massive wheelie everwhere

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by ken2903

Technically that would be mid not rear engined...

I know. Sorry if I was unclear.

And thank you, I agree with you about independent thought.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by pauljh74

Back to the OP's point about large cars + FWD = fail - in smaller, lower powered cars, the shortcomings of FWD are better hidden. The fact is there are few small cars with RWD. Small cars are usually about lower purchase cost, lower fuel costs and less about performance. Use FWD on a larger 6 cyl car, and it starts to unravel. Most of the FWD platforms run 4 and 6 cyl drivetrains. The Falcon and Commodore start with 6 cyl and then go up to turbo 6 and 8 cyl drivetrains. Put FWD on a car with that weight and power and people driving it will start singing that Lonely Island song - "I'm on a M.... F..... boat......". 300HP and FWD and they have to employ all sorts of tricks to make it work. Get closer to 400HP and you will see few if any cars running FWD. They will be RWD or AWD.

Agreed on a 300+ HP large car, a RWD or AWD setup would be more ideal.

Sorry I know my post was a little off topic but I had to respond to the "FWD is rubbish" comment.

[TUF_302]

Originally Posted by BA Falcon

I think with the dynamics of new cars these days, the whole FWD vs RWD debate is largely void. Unless you are after a performance car which the vast majority of the population are not, you would not need to drive a RWD.

If you drive a car within the rules of the law, there's very little difference.

I know people who have bought new cars such as the Toyota Aurion and Honda Accord and assumed they were rear-wheel drive, only to find out months after owning them (from me) that they were front-wheel drive.

P.S. I think the owner of an Audi A6 would laugh at the idea of driving an ED Falcon. Seriously I have driven all of the FWD large family sedans on the market cars and there's no comparison in say an Aurion or 380, which both handle very well to your car, an ED Falcon which handles like a boat without power steering.

A good valid point, but what kind of person doesnt realise what wheels are driving there car till months later, even my nan new hers was front wheel drive, i mean if you pay so litte attention to the mecahincs of the car your buying how do you no what your really buying?

[Franco Cozzo]

FWD is quite good in new small cars, my Fiesta is the best handling car I've driven (its a short list haha). Its like driving a go-kart, you can throw it into a corner pretty hard without it coming unsettled, a bit of understeer though.

[outback_ute]

You would need to increase the distance between the rear seat and the axle! Particularly for a V6.

This has nearly been done in the past however, this concept has a transverse 4cyl engine between the rear seat and boot. However it didn't make production, they went for a conventional front engine/rear wheel drive instead. I think I might be able to find a cutaway drawing of it.


388 - on what basis do you say a large fwd car is "dynamically unstable"? Also have you ever driven a rear-engined car? I have, and on a wet skidpan, lifting of the accelerator while turning into a corner is like using the handbrake.

Originally Posted by snappy

actually with dsc and traction control any advantage fwd drive had in slippery conditions is gone

Not really, a fwd car will have a greater percentage of its weight on the driven wheels than a rwd car (unless mid/rear engine), which means it will have more traction.

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by TUF_302

A good valid point, but what kind of person doesnt realise what wheels are driving there car till months later, even my nan new hers was front wheel drive, i mean if you pay so litte attention to the mecahincs of the car your buying how do you no what your really buying?

Jeremy Clarkson is a genius.

If you buy a rubbish car, then that means you have no interest in cars.
If you have no interest in cars, it means you have no interest in driving.
If you have no interest in something, it means you are no good at it.

Ergo if you buy a rubbish car, you should have your license taken away.

A bit extreme, but he makes a valid point. And no, its not verbatim.

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

388 - on what basis do you say a large fwd car is "dynamically unstable"? Also have you ever driven a rear-engined car? I have, and on a wet skidpan, lifting of the accelerator while turning into a corner is like using the handbrake.

Anyone who has driven a large FWD car in the wet can testify that unexpected lift off understeer is one of the scariest things in the world.

Modern additions such as ESP and stuff can help, but its really just a bandaid fix. You can't repair a shattered windscreen, there will always be cracks. As long as the front wheels have to power, steer and do most of the braking of a ~1700kg car, its going to be unstable.

Here is a question for the family men. If the wife won't let you buy a MR2 for some fun, how many of you would try and sell her the idea of an MR2-esque sportsy thing with 4 doors, 5 seats and a 300hp 30mpg Duratec V6, transversely mid mounted and RWD? Same price as a Camry...

I want one just thinking about it.

[388cube_edxr8]

Who doesn't want one of these?
And who thinks it would work better as a FWD?

[mrbaxr6t]

FWD cars are not rubbish how can you say this when the john cooper works minis of old used to be highly competitive on the track in this country? I recently bought a Ford focus XR5 09 model and it is front wheel drive and over 60 ft the thing is a missile and no it doesn't suffer torque steer or understeer or many other afflictions associated with fwd cars DSC is like a hand of god almost in this car it just goes where you intend it to doesn't understeer or torque steer and is fun as all getout to drive - in the wet I went a little spirited round a roundabout and was being tailgated by a b series falcon who spunout on the roundabout couldn't match my midcorner speed. All you guys that are poo pooing on FWD go drive a modern GOOD one not a crap one then see if you still think FWD is bad. I would also put my money on the focus over my BA through a really twisty section of road if one was to do timed runs it (the focus) just achieves midcorner speeds my falcon cant touch without coming unstuck hard. calling something crap because you don't understand it is very immature.