Falcon options that where tested but never made it to production - Page 2

Kieron · 25-12-2015, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmelon

I now work with one of the guys responsible for doing trans calibrations with BTR on this car and comparing it to the SOHC engine. He said they lined them up for drag races and the car with the SOHC engine put several car lengths on the DOHC car every time, that's why they went with SOHC.

Story I heard was the DOHC was actually a 3.2 litre but made no more power than the 3.9 SOHC, it was cheaper to build the latter so the DOHC was shelved.

There's a black and white picture with a Ford engineer from the 80's with the engine on an engine dyno around.

Around the same time, they were experimenting with the T drive concept (essentially fwd) with the SOHC motor too, it was installed in an early Ford Taurus.

Another development that never made it to production was the 2l Pinto motor in the XD around the Sam e as Holdrns Starfire 4 Commodore.

**russellw** · 25-12-2015, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaturbo

Well maybe someone like Russell W can make some enquiries or even myself if I don't hear anyone else doing it. As I said, once production finishes and a few years go by this information will be lost forever. There's also no commercial reason why Ford can't detail the history of manufacturing and the different features and options it considered during the Falcons years. For me the EA was probably the biggest engineering change to the Falcon. It saw so many changes and a massive change to the styling. Suspension and steering was all new up front, new engine, all new panels, all new interior, digital climate comtrol.

... already on it.

Cheers
Russ

Trevor 57 · 25-12-2015, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

I really hope Ford do a nice hard cover book on the history of the Falcon and Territory, or even the whole history of Australian production. And have it full of details like above and more. they fill thousands of pages with almost 100 years of history.

csv8 · 25-12-2015, 09:01 AM

Ford has taken the cautious path, to their detriment..whereas the red team have always "had a go" even if it hasnt worked out...

Eaturbo · 26-12-2015, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russellw

... already on it.

Cheers
Russ

Top effort mate, I know you would be busy but also know that you have the contacts to make progress. It would be great to get Ford to really open the book on what really went on behind those closed doors. Now that things are coming to an end the people that made Ford a success for so long deserve to get a little back. A detailed story about the Falcon and some of the things that nearly made it to production would be a great way to help close the chapter here in Australia for all it supporters. Big thanks from us all Russ for everything you do to bring us this sort of information.

Eaturbo · 26-12-2015, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russellw

... already on it.

Cheers
Russ

Top effort mate, I know you would be busy but also know that you have the contacts to make progress. It would be great to get Ford to really open the book on what really went on behind those closed doors. Now that things are coming to an end the people that made Ford a success for so long deserve to get a little back. A detailed story about the Falcon and some of the things that nearly made it to production would be a great way to help close the chapter here in Australia for all it supporters. Big thanks from us all Russ for everything you do to bring us this sort of information.

Eaturbo · 26-12-2015, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russellw

... already on it.

Cheers
Russ

Top effort mate, I know you would be busy but also know that you have the contacts to make progress. It would be great to get Ford to really open the book on what really went on behind those closed doors. Now that things are coming to an end the people that made Ford a success for so long deserve to get a little back. A detailed story about the Falcon and some of the things that nearly made it to production would be a great way to help close the chapter here in Australia for all it supporters. Big thanks from us all Russ for everything you do to bring us this sort of information.

Eaturbo · 26-12-2015, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russellw

... already on it.

Cheers
Russ

Top effort mate, I know you would be busy but also know that you have the contacts to make progress. It would be great to get Ford to really open the book on what really went on behind those closed doors. Now that things are coming to an end the people that made Ford a success for so long deserve to get a little back. A detailed story about the Falcon and some of the things that nearly made it to production would be a great way to help close the chapter here in Australia for all it supporters. Big thanks from us all Russ for everything you do to bring us this sort of information.

Trevor 57 · 26-12-2015, 06:51 AM

someone has a stutter - LOL

Brazen · 26-12-2015, 07:19 AM

There was the fully designed FG wagon that wasn't approved and FG RTV that was canned at the last minute. Because they needed more manufacturing capacity for sedans that were in demand for 7 seconds.

XG_Falcon · 26-12-2015, 09:04 AM

I often wonder if they planned to continue the XR wagons beyond the EL or whether they simply decided it wasn't worth it. A factory BA XR6-T wagon would have been epic.

I doubt they would have seriously considered doing it because the high series wagons never sold in numbers... but a man can dream.

csv8 · 26-12-2015, 10:16 AM

XG Falcon..but the Red Team build a SS Wagon and a Calais V V8 wagon!!!!!!! they see a market...

OwnTheRoad · 26-12-2015, 10:21 AM

i know they had test mule Falcons with the 2.7 V6 Terry Diesel motor in them, given how well this motor went in a Jag sedan a Falcon in this spec would have been a great machine , so much lighter than a Territory.Fuel efficient too , perfect for Taxis, How many eco boost 4cyl did they sell, hmmm another poor choice, oh then imagine a Discovery 4 version of this Diesel in a falcon 3.0 litre 180 kw i think or more and 600nm of torque, add that to your ZF 6 spd auto and you have an XR6 TTD ( Twin turbo D ) that would have been interesting indeed.
i spotted an XF S pac manual the other day with a Perkins 4 cyl diesel conversion in it ,not very common , saw a few in the XD era .So my concept wasnt the first Diesle Falcon.
they also put the perkins into F series too lol

commodorenutt · 26-12-2015, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XG_Falcon

I often wonder if they planned to continue the XR wagons beyond the EL or whether they simply decided it wasn't worth it. A factory BA XR6-T wagon would have been epic.

I doubt they would have seriously considered doing it because the high series wagons never sold in numbers... but a man can dream.

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

XG Falcon..but the Red Team build a SS Wagon and a Calais V V8 wagon!!!!!!! they see a market...

The XF Ghia wagon was a nice thing in it's day. But did this continue into EA?

It's debatable whether Holden did the VL Calais wagon before or after Ford did the XF Ghia, but it showed a small, but keen market for top level wagons (mind you, HDT did Calais spec wagons well prior to both Ford an Holden, and there were a small amount of VC SL/E wagons too).

After the 200 VL Calais wagons, Holden didn't see fit to do a Calais wagon again for some 20 years - until the VE (in top line Calais-V spec), instead relying on optioned up Berlinas throughout the 90s & early 2000s as the top level wagon - and they sold in very low numbers too.
I reckon I see almost as many '90s Fairmont wagons around, but even then they are few & far between.

A BA-BF XR6T wagon would have only ever been a niche model, but I reckon it would have sold enough numbers to justify itself. And there's no excuse about the live axle & cart springs being a limiting factor, as the ute still ran that suspension design and got the turbo 6 (and the Miami in FG).

Think of the hi-po SUV market - although it's a niche market, they still sell enough volume to make it worthwhile - the Hemi Jeeps & the like (the Turbo Territory being a good example too) - there's buyers out there. But maybe an XR6T wagon might have cannibalised Terri-turbo sales too much.

davenl5l · 26-12-2015, 10:53 AM

I know that they made a eb Fairmont ghia wagon as my brother had one. awesome car but i think they only sold about 150 of them

Eaturbo · 26-12-2015, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

someone has a stutter - LOL

I know, bloody Internet froze and I was refreshing and trying to repost. Your lucky, I was about to repost the same thing as I thought it never went thru last night. Would have been the 5th post of the same thing.

castellan · 26-12-2015, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russellw

... already on it.

Cheers
Russ

Dr Terry is on here and I do believe may be doing one, he has the best in depth books on Holden's by far.

Look at the work he did with the 60 years of Holden it's a complete encyclopedia of all Holden's.

If we had a book just set out like that, but only about all the Aussie Fords

Magee · 26-12-2015, 01:55 PM

From the Ford Suppliers side we had an EB Falcon years ago that had rain sensing wipers fitted. Worked great when it was actually raining but main problem was occasional dry wiping when it was not raining.

commodorenutt · 26-12-2015, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magee

From the Ford Suppliers side we had an EB Falcon years ago that had rain sensing wipers fitted. Worked great when it was actually raining but main problem was occasional dry wiping when it was not raining.

There hasn't been much improvement over time then - our VE Calais V still dry wipes occasionally when the right size leaf or gum-nut falls on the screen.

But pouring a watering can over it, or even hosing it is futile - they simply won't go unless they sense that particular frequency generated in the glass when raindrops hit.

XG_Falcon · 26-12-2015, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

A BA-BF XR6T wagon would have only ever been a niche model, but I reckon it would have sold enough numbers to justify itself. And there's no excuse about the live axle & cart springs being a limiting factor, as the ute still ran that suspension design and got the turbo 6 (and the Miami in FG).

Think of the hi-po SUV market - although it's a niche market, they still sell enough volume to make it worthwhile - the Hemi Jeeps & the like (the Turbo Territory being a good example too) - there's buyers out there. But maybe an XR6T wagon might have cannibalised Terri-turbo sales too much.

You're probably right that FoA was worried about stealing sales from the Territory turbo. That's the only reason that came to my mind as well.

Oh well, I'll just build it myself...

Eaturbo · 26-12-2015, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XG_Falcon

You're probably right that FoA was worried about stealing sales from the Territory turbo. That's the only reason that came to my mind as well.

Oh well, I'll just build it myself...

I hate to admit it and I certainly don't mean any disrespect, but A and B series wagons were God dam ugly in the rear glass house tailgate area. The rear side windows don't line up with the back passenger window line and the tailgate has got to be the worst effort ever. IF they had the tapering rear side glass like the Commodore or 300c they would have looked good. If I had one I would paint the rear side windows with a custom shape to make it look like the rear glass was smaller and like the Holden sports wagon if you get what I mean. In other words try to make a section of the glass look like body work to change the look of the rear.The tailgate Is probably not as bad but the whole rear just looks like an add on. As much as I hate to say it, I think that Holden has got the wagon profile 110% correct from the point of styling. Maybe not as flexible or roomy as the Territory or BF wagon for room and volume but certainly very well styled. Now somebody wash my mouth out.

commodorenutt · 26-12-2015, 10:21 PM

^^ I agree. The X series wagons looked good (even with the heavily pronounced slope on XD-XF) because the side glass all lined up & matched. The XR-XY, and XA-XC wagons actually had some decent style too - by incorporating the famous coke-bottle hipline from the sedan.

The EA went to that high roof & over-size rear side glass, and that's where the ugliness started. One of the most pleasant looking Falcons in sedan form, but the complete opposite in wagon form. The cleaner & tighter EF & EL plastics, as well as colour coding, made the lower half look even better, but look above the waistline and cringe...

You only have to look at the Territory side profile to see they were capable of getting it right again. Even though the side glass doesn't continue in one sweep like a Commodore, the rear cargo glass height complements the door glass (and looks good how it sweeps around into the tailgate).

Brazen · 26-12-2015, 10:23 PM

They were like that because they had big butts to fit stuff in.

XG_Falcon · 26-12-2015, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaturbo

I hate to admit it and I certainly don't mean any disrespect, but A and B series wagons were God dam ugly in the rear glass house tailgate area. The rear side windows don't line up with the back passenger window line and the tailgate has got to be the worst effort ever. IF they had the tapering rear side glass like the Commodore or 300c they would have looked good. If I had one I would paint the rear side windows with a custom shape to make it look like the rear glass was smaller and like the Holden sports wagon if you get what I mean. In other words try to make a section of the glass look like body work to change the look of the rear.The tailgate Is probably not as bad but the whole rear just looks like an add on. As much as I hate to say it, I think that Holden has got the wagon profile 110% correct from the point of styling. Maybe not as flexible or roomy as the Territory or BF wagon for room and volume but certainly very well styled. Now somebody wash my mouth out.

Well you've brought up some good points there. The EA-ED shape is actually my personal favourite for both sedans and wagons.

Road_Warrior · 27-12-2015, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

Ford has taken the cautious path, to their detriment..whereas the red team have always "had a go" even if it hasnt worked out...

Yeah like developing an SUV and full spectrum development centre... didn't see your precious "red team" betting the farm to that extent.

Silver' · 27-12-2015, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whiteSY

Now THAT would be a damn good idea.

There is some serious interest in these details . . surprises me that Ford dont get on it now before they no longer exist here in anything other than an accounts department!

Last I heard Ford would be the largest automotive employer in the country after the others shut down production. This was due to the 1500 design and development staff they have here. Has this changed?

Eaturbo · 27-12-2015, 12:02 PM

I think in fords defence that the Falcon wagon was never going to see another dollar as far as development went because of Territory. As soon as the Territory was in development stage around say 2000 which was mid AU Falcon era than the Falcon wagon was finished. The BA was just a mid life makeover and with Territory winning awards everywhere in 2004 there was no way any money was going to be spent on developing an FG wagon. In a way Territory's success was what kept Falcon going as long as it did giving the factory a boost in sales numbers when large sedans where on the nose.

**EASYBOSS** · 27-12-2015, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top_Ghia

No idea why. But prototypes were built. It could have been the true go fast wagon the turbo territory never was.

So you haven't driven an F6X

arronm · 27-12-2015, 01:30 PM

Territory is fast enough. There is one getting around that is close to a 9.

Eaturbo · 27-12-2015, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EASYBOSS

So you haven't driven an F6X

I think he means compared to a Falcon sedan. I have driven both F6x and turbo ghia and tuned turbo ghia and a stock F6X would not go close to a BF Typhoon but given the half a tonne weight difference that's expected. The tuned Ghia however was crazy fast. But at the end of the day we all know what weight does and 500kg means the territory was never going to be as quick as a F6 sedan or wagon. But than again they are not really in the same class as Territory is in the BMW X5, Q7, Merc ML class.