Ford Australia Invests $230 Million in New Fuel-Efficient Engines for Local Vehicles

[Thankfull]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Knocking the four cylinder ecoboost and diesel engines is pointless when the I6 is still available alongside, if you don't like them, don't buy them, simple.

The fact they will open a whole new new market of new age tree huggers to Ford and make our brand of choice more profitable is beside the point eh....

Actualy I am a Christian tree hugger....and personaly I reckon that a direct injection LPG V8 is an exciting prospect....especially in a World that is doomed to perish in the end despite mans best efforts.

We get to have fun during our limited stay here with out damaging the envoirment as much as we would have with Petrol....(Crikey imagine what it would be like if everybody was still using leaded petrol, does anybody remember the blue haze that hung over Adelaide in the early 70s) on a planet predestined to be thrown in the lake of fire in the end anyway.

I am very excited about the prospect of the direct injection LPG V8 indeed, with out any qualms towards the envoirment....

Cheers all

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by Thankfull

Actualy I am a Christian tree hugger....and personaly I reckon that a direct injection LPG V8 is an exciting prospect....especially in a World that is doomed to perish in the end despite mans best efforts.

We get to have fun during our limited stay here with out damaging the envoirment as much as we would have with Petrol....(Crikey imagine what it would be like if everybody was still using leaded petrol, does anybody remember the blue haze that hung over Adelaide in the early 70s) on a planet predestined to be thrown in the lake of fire in the end anyway.

I am very excited about the prospect of the direct injection LPG V8 indeed, with out any qualms towards the envoirment....

Cheers all

Whilst I'm also looking forward to the new generation of direct injection LPG i would not see it fixing environmental problems, more like slowing them down.

LPG being derived from petrol means the passive environmental impact still exists, robbing Peter to pay Paul so to speak.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Knocking the four cylinder ecoboost and diesel engines is pointless when the I6 is still available alongside, if you don't like them, don't buy them, simple.

The fact they will open a whole new new market of new age tree huggers to Ford and make our brand of choice more profitable is beside the point eh....

Agreed, i didnt realise Ford had so many demo 4cyl and diesel Falcons hanging around for all the "experts" to test drive to form these opinions.....

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Agreed, i didnt realise Ford had so many demo 4cyl and diesel Falcons hanging around for all the "experts" to test drive to form these opinions.....

Norm that’s not the point and you know it.

Having to add a turbo to a small displacement engine to give performance in a large car application then adding DI to give it increased economy is a long way for a short cut. I know you know how turbo’s work.

Given the recent spate of manufacturers proclamations about technologies that just don’t deliver is it any wonder people are sceptical about developments like this. You have been a life member of that list.

In all but one situation the introduction of Li and diesel in the Territory seems to have the bases covered. It starts to get into the point where the proposed products are eating into themselves and not conquest markets.

Ford must have seen something that makes them think it can justify the investment. They don't sign off lightly but at least the people that are sceptical are honest to say they aren't a buyer for this product. Not sure the fans can claim the same. If I am wrong then Ford is on a winner, but until then I would have rather have seen increased investment on the economy side of the excellent engine we have.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Norm that’s not the point and you know it.

Having to add a turbo to a small displacement engine to give performance in a large car application then adding DI to give it increased economy is a long way for a short cut. I know you know how turbo’s work.

Given the recent spate of manufacturers proclamations about technologies that just don’t deliver is it any wonder people are sceptical about developments like this. You have been a life member of that list.

In all but one situation that introduction of Li and diesel in the Territory seems to have the bases covered. It starts to get into the point where the proposed products are eating into themselves and not conquest markets.

Ford must have seen something that makes them think it can justify the investment. They don't sign off lightly but at least the people that are sceptical are honest to say they aren't a buyer for this product. Not sure the fans can claim the same. If I am wrong then Ford is on a winner, but until then I would have rather have seen increased investment on the economy side of the excellent engine we have.

That's true, and im skeptical of technology that promises so much and delivers basically nothing.. (e.g: DOD)..

Im not convinced a 4cyl falcon will work, but the jury's out in my mind till we see some actual results. As long as there are other power options then all's good.

I also believe we were short changed with FPV's development dollars being stretched too far in too many (wrong) directions, so when you think in those terms you have to ask yourself is this the best way to spend 230mill?
As you say maybe more money on what we have would be better? maybe they have "other" plans that procure that investment....

I'll wait till more details emerge before going too strongly on that one yet....

[R-Design]

I’m surprised that no one has considered the 4-Cylinder talk is simply a bait and switch tactic to hide the fact that Focus won’t be built in Australia. In two years time they’ll probably announce the 4-Cylinder wasn’t viable and they’ve come up with some other scheme to fleece the Government and keep Ford AU operational.

In reality is this Falcon derivate required if they’ve already got the Mondeo on the market? What advantages does it offer?

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by Boss315

I’m surprised that no one has considered the 4-Cylinder talk is simply a bait and switch tactic to hide the fact that Focus won’t be built in Australia. In two years time they’ll probably announce the 4-Cylinder wasn’t viable and they’ve come up with some other scheme to fleece the Government and keep Ford AU operational.

That could very well happen. I am waiting to be corrected on this, but from memory the focus added near nothing to our manufacturing base. It’s just not a huge loss. When Ford says no jobs are going to be lost I believe it to be so becasue there was very little local content in the car.

My point here is that we don’t expect people to own something to be the prerequisite of making an informed opinion. The point you raise is a good one. That is not being anti Ford, it’s raising a valid question given the recent automotive history.

Car companies essentially can’t work with any degree of confidence into the future like they used to. That 6 year cycle has really come in. It makes it hard and to have to constantly justify each movement in public.

The people that go in guns blazing with full support come across as fan boys, the people that are more circumspect come across as anti Ford. The truth is neither. We all want the same thing. I wish the way forward was clearer for all but I am not going to get it.

[4Vman]

Car companies are rapidly becoming like politicians at election time, you can't believe too much of what they say about the future because it can change in a heart beat...
The "4cyl falcon" may well be a smoke screen...

[whynot]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Car companies are rapidly becoming like politicians at election time, you can't believe too much of what they say about the future because it can change in a heart beat...
The "4cyl falcon" may well be a smoke screen...

Possible. But, one would imagine, that if Ford Australia has gotten a Federal Government grant for the I4T, there would be some contractual arrangement in place with the Feds to actually delivery something. (Remember that there was no funding for the Focus.)

Also, recall that various State Governments have a love affair with 4-cylinders, because it appears to be more environmentally friendly. One would think that Ford Australia could reassert its “Buy Australia” play for the Falcon because it does have 4-cylinders.

While I would never say never, the I4T does seem to be real goer.
But, there should be no doubts about the diesel and the LPG options. I would image that Marin Burela would consider giving his leftie for diesel Territory a few months back.

[Barry_v]

Originally Posted by sgt_doofey

Hey Barry_v, have you driven a modern diesel car? I would like to think that you haven't judging by your comment. You'd be quite surprised how that can push you back in your chair with the acceleration they have thanks to the bags of torque they possess. And that's in any gear from about 1750rpm onwards.

I will bet you a 4 cylinder falcon I have driven more modern diesels than you. I'm a toyota tech.

the reality about turbo diesels: when you put your foot down there is nothing there. the turbo is laggy and the power comes on all in one hit then leaves as quickly as it came. in something like a landcruiser this is acceptable if the primary use is towing or offroading. in a passenger vehicle the only reason you would want a diesel is fuel economy. and even then its questionable given the price per litre in australia. Before anyone talks about the old legends of country farmers only being able to get diesel just bear in mind this: new common rail diesel systems do not tolerate low quality contaminated fuel such as that found in farm tanks. It will stuff the pump and injectors which have considerable replacement cost.

I am not at all suprised there will be no diesel option in the falcon, it just doesnt make sense. The LPG injected motor would be cheaper to buy, more economical and drive far better. I am suprised the 4 cylinder motor is on the table, but it may have its merits in a fleet market competing with the camry. I think the major deciding point will be the price compared to its competitors.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

I will bet you a 4 cylinder falcon I have driven more modern diesels than you. I'm a toyota tech.

the reality about turbo diesels: when you put your foot down there is nothing there. the turbo is laggy and the power comes on all in one hit then leaves as quickly as it came. in something like a landcruiser this is acceptable if the primary use is towing or offroading. in a passenger vehicle the only reason you would want a diesel is fuel economy. and even then its questionable given the price per litre in australia. Before anyone talks about the old legends of country farmers only being able to get diesel just bear in mind this: new common rail diesel systems do not tolerate low quality contaminated fuel such as that found in farm tanks. It will stuff the pump and injectors which have considerable replacement cost.

I am not at all suprised there will be no diesel option in the falcon, it just doesnt make sense. The LPG injected motor would be cheaper to buy, more economical and drive far better. I am suprised the 4 cylinder motor is on the table, but it may have its merits in a fleet market competing with the camry. I think the major deciding point will be the price compared to its competitors.

Enough said. Toyota are far from being at the pinacle of turbo diesel DID technology. Go drive BMW, Mercedes Benz, Audi, VW and Ford EU diesel powered vehicles, then critise diesel technology. Toyota's are junk compared to the European offerings, IMO.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

That's true, and im skeptical of technology that promises so much and delivers basically nothing.. (e.g: DOD)..

Im not convinced a 4cyl falcon will work, but the jury's out in my mind till we see some actual results. As long as there are other power options then all's good.

I also believe we were short changed with FPV's development dollars being stretched too far in too many (wrong) directions, so when you think in those terms you have to ask yourself is this the best way to spend 230mill?
As you say maybe more money on what we have would be better? maybe they have "other" plans that procure that investment....

I'll wait till more details emerge before going too strongly on that one yet....

Work, as in what way? An I4T doesn't have to have performance comparable to a V6/I6....I believe Fords (marketing) strategy is clever by taking Toyota head on. Toyota's have a reputation of being reliable and cheap to run (both are probably untrue) so by Ford introducing a I4T which may use less fuel than a Camry is a smart move imo.

[ivorya]

Everybody is talking up the fuel economy of this 4T engine but i see it differently. Just look at the the mazda 2.3L T DI engine fitted to the Wagon CX5??? This car weighs roughly the same as the Falc 1700 odd kgs and is rated at 11.5 L/100kms. I'm sure i've also read that this engine requires Premium juice and in the real world, your lucky to get near 14L/100km.

I agree with with 4Vman who said 'The "4cyl falcon" may well be a smoke screen...' just like Holden has DoD on their v8's. But how long will it take the consumers to work out they've just bought a dud technology. It may get Fleet sales up, but is this what we want, do we want more reduction on 2nd hand vehicle prices.

I hope for Ford Aus sake that these stratagies work and it leads to an increase in sales but i can't yet see the real world benefits of such an engine.....But lets wait till she's released.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by TVS Super Pursuit

Work, as in what way? An I4T doesn't have to have performance comparable to a V6/I6....I believe Fords (marketing) strategy is clever by taking Toyota head on. Toyota's have a reputation of being reliable and cheap to run (both are probably untrue) so by Ford introducing a I4T which may use less fuel than a Camry is a smart move imo.

"Work" in the wider sense.. meaning sales...

[4.0i_SiX]

4 cylinder turbo falcon....not sure I like that idea. Imagine the insurace costs and the fact that noone under 25 can drive them

[Thankfull]

The cost of Oil also has to be a consideration....Australia is a small player in the World market.
I was watching a show on Foxtel a little while back on the Automotive industry in China....awesome!

All the car companies are selling cars in China, and there are two Chinese manufacturers in the game as well.
One of them is punching out 240,000 vehicles a year, and only 4% of Chinas 1 Billion population owns a car.

The potential for just one Nation like China to draw on the remainder of our Worlds Oil reserves, could see Australians forced into using LPG because Australia cannot afford the cost of importing Oil in the same quantities as they are now....and Australia has big gas fields, and we sell a lot of LPG to China as well.

After seeing what is happening in China within the car industry, I am in no way surprised to see Ford building direct injection LPG engines for cars in Australia from next year, in Geelong according to the last news report I saw....

Cheers all

[chevypower]

The 2.0 EcoBoost is 205kw/380Nm with unnoticeable turbo lag. The torque curve is flat from 1600rpm-5500 rpm just like the 3.5 EB engine in the Taurus SHO. The 2.0 EB will be used in the 2010 or 2011 Explorer, and possibly will replace the already-dead 4.2 Triton V6 in the F150. And people think this won't be powerful enough for a Falcon?
People need to understand, this will feel like it has more low-end torque than the 4.0 N/A I-6, because it does kick in lower in the rev range.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by HSE2

The people that go in guns blazing with full support come across as fan boys,

Ford has not done a great deal since the release of the FG, to see a commitment to what seems a sound plan for the immediate future should be supported by all fans, we are not losing anything that won't be replaced by something better.
I fail to see this making one a "fan boy".

Originally Posted by HSE2

the people that are more circumspect come across as anti Ford. The truth is neither.

Whilst unproven at this stage the positives of looking "green" to the new "global warming" religion sweeping the world has to be a good thing, comments to the contrary before any test results are forthcoming is merely a glass half empty attitude.

[naddis01]

I found this article quite interesting.

http://ninemsn.carpoint.com.au/news/...onrunner-15971

Originally Posted by Carpoint

Falcon four a non-runner

Ford has based the future of the Falcon on computer simulations

Ford Asia-Pacific's chief vehicle engineer, Rob Connor, today admitted that Falcon's future is still based on computer simulations.

Where most would assume the Australian arm of the Blue Oval would have tested four-cylinder-engined mules of Falcon, the decision to add a four-cylinder line to the Aussie large rear-wheel drive icon, has been based purely on unreal-world calculations.

"It's all computer simulations, so pretty much every aspect of how the car's going to drive, what the acceleration's going to be like, fuel economy... How loud it's going to be... is all simulated up front..." said Connor.

Ford in the US has published figures of 205kW of power and 380Nm of torque for the new engine, so it appears that the new engine has the legs -- on paper.

"We're about two weeks away from being able to have a drive… I'm looking forward to that…" said Connor, when asked what progress had been made with real-world testing.

Whilst it's common now to undertake extensive virtual testing of crash structures and the like, it is nonetheless still unusual that such a ground-breaking decision would be announced ahead of engineering evaluation vehicles even turning a wheel

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Ford has not done a great deal since the release of the FG, to see a commitment to what seems a sound plan for the immediate future should be supported by all fans, we are not losing anything that won't be replaced by something better.
I fail to see this making one a "fan boy".
.

When anybody makes the assertion that a 4 cylinder Falcon will bring back market share to a segment- unfounded- where the manufacturers has clearly stated it is in decline, it is as stated to people that are saying hang on a minute.

The no loss situation only works if the products on offer aren’t of a cannibal nature. The suggestion is that they could be.
No one has suggested that it isn't supported by all fans just some are saying hang on a minute lets think about the task ahead. Ford has already made these claims about the V6 and they proved to be well short of the mark. It’s not without foundation.

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Whilst unproven at this stage the positives of looking "green" to the new "global warming" religion sweeping the world has to be a good thing, comments to the contrary before any test results are forthcoming is merely a glass half empty attitude.

Whilst still an opinion worthy of respect. As clearly stated both sides have merit and both have fault.

Pointing out that we already have a very good "green" product and if afforded similar development is not a half glass empty attitude.

[Falcon Coupe]

Fair enough, you make some good points HSE2, lets hope it all works out for the better on release.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of the whole green thing. My preference is as much performance possible while being cheap to run eg: lpg injected V8/I6T.

If Ford manage to steal some bland Toyota sales away we can hope the profit may go towards more development of the fan boy type models.

[Barry_v]

Originally Posted by TVS Super Pursuit

Enough said. Toyota are far from being at the pinacle of turbo diesel DID technology. Go drive BMW, Mercedes Benz, Audi, VW and Ford EU diesel powered vehicles, then critise diesel technology. Toyota's are junk compared to the European offerings, IMO.

european turbo diesels are no better, they generally have more peak output but the turbo lag and narrow powerband remain. you can pick an obscure overseas expensive diesel engine and compare it with a toyota engine.. but at the end of the day which is going to have more in common with a locally produced ford engine?

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

. you can pick an obscure overseas expensive diesel engine and compare it with a toyota engine.. but at the end of the day which is going to have more in common with a locally produced ford engine?

Neither ?

Maybe because the Diesel will be imported ? :

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Neither ?

Maybe because the Diesel will be imported ? :

As will the i4T.

How is Toyota's V8 diesel going? Still using oil like an AstronII?

[Barry_v]

Originally Posted by Paxton

How is Toyota's V8 diesel going? Still using oil like an AstronII?

going a tad off topic there, perhaps you should keep the random toyota bashing to yourself. I was explaining that diesel engines were not desirable in a passenger vehicle and you responded by bagging a toyota diesel?

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

going a tad off topic there, perhaps you should keep the random toyota bashing to yourself. I was explaining that diesel engines were not desirable in a passenger vehicle and you responded by bagging a toyota diesel?

No, it was justified. You generalised that all diesels were ordinary by your exposure to Toyota diesels.

Personally not a fan of diesels, but the European ones are a long way ahead.

Back on Topic. Ford Aus just happens to be investing serious dollars into getting a Euro diesel into the Territory. An engine which has the ability to potentially double sales (going off competitor diesel / petrol sales split).

[Barry_v]

Originally Posted by phillyc

No, it was justified. You generalised that all diesels were ordinary by your exposure to Toyota diesels.

heres a generalisation: all turbo diesels have turbo lag and no throttle response. they have no place in a passenger car in australia.

show me a car with a diesel option that has better performance\drivability than its petrol variant.

the only reason people in europe buy diesels: cheaper to run due to diesel being cheaper than petrol (plus getting slightly better economy). nobody raves about how much better they drive compared to petrol engines. if they throw enough technology at a turbo diesel it might get close to a petrol engine - but for what purpose?

you may not agree with me, but if it were worthwhile dont you think ford or holden would have put a diesel in a commodore/falcon 20 years ago?

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

heres a generalisation: all turbo diesels have turbo lag and no throttle response. they have no place in a passenger car in australia.

show me a car with a diesel option that has better performance\drivability than its petrol variant.

the only reason people in europe buy diesels: cheaper to run due to diesel being cheaper than petrol (plus getting slightly better economy). nobody raves about how much better they drive compared to petrol engines. if they throw enough technology at a turbo diesel it might get close to a petrol engine - but for what purpose?

you may not agree with me, but if it were worthwhile dont you think ford or holden would have put a diesel in a commodore/falcon 20 years ago?

Mazda 6 petrol has nothing on the diesel. Yes there is a little lag, but in my opinion the diesel is a better drive than the petrol. I certainly wouldnt say that the diesel has no place in a passenger car.

[Barry_v]

Originally Posted by naddis01

Mazda 6 petrol has nothing on the diesel.

Originally Posted by GoAuto

At a claimed 8.5 seconds to accelerate to 100km/h, the diesel is just 0.5 seconds slower than the Mazda6 petrol’s claimed time.

so its slower..

Originally Posted by GoAuto

at current fuel prices the Diesel owner can stand to save only about $200 every 10,000km

has insignificant economy differences..

Originally Posted by TMR

Available from $36,690, the Mazda6 Diesel costs nearly ten grand more than the base model petrol 6

and they want you to pay more for it!

That said, I havnt driven one. to give it credit, being only available with a manual gearbox would help its drivability.

maybe when ford release some specifications on the new v6 diesel I will be converted, but i doubt it. I just can't see them selling if they were placed in a falcon. they will be popular in the territory for towing applications i suspect, providing their price stays low.

[Thankfull]

When you look at what is happening globaly...the Chinese economy is growing into a monster....an...oil...consuming monster.

Remember all those thousands of Chinese you would see riding push bikes in the back ground, when viewing news reports about China on TV in years gone by....yea well they are now thousands upon thousands of Chinese driving motor cars now...with only a few push bikes to be seen now...and its happening all over China.

That emerging Chinese middle class....they all want to own their own car as well...just like us, only there are millions and millions, more of them, than there are of us.

Somebody at Ford did their home work....by the middle of this Century we could very well see all localy produced cars made for the Australian market running on LPG. (Australia has big Gas Fields)

Unless ofcourse you want to buy an expensive 4 cylinder import that runs on petrol or diesel, which by then could be so expensive per litre, that it is beyond the budget of most working class Australians..........