The truth behind the FPV cleanout - Page 2

**Fordman1** · 03-03-2007, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

The upheaval at FPV is quite worrying but there is little, if anything, that we the great unwashed can do about. Those who made the decissions have their reasons and whether right or wrong they have implemented them.
If they ruin FPV then sales will falter and it will die. If they improve FPV then it will flourish.
Only time will tell but I prefer to be optimistic..........

Good comments flappist..

mustang70 · 03-03-2007, 11:13 AM

mcphillamy,this is a ford forum, that covers so many aspects of FORD, not just current Ford , not just FPV, some of us, like myself dont care much for newer fords,its called Personal Taste, you care alot about it, as do some other posters here,wouldnt you rather the people that cared were the ones that posted,and some of us are happy to read more than post as you have obviously been yourself for some time.

blue terra · 03-03-2007, 11:49 AM

One thing is we dont want to lose the performance arm of FPV. If that happens team red will make more dollars and nearly push ford out of the market like what happened when ford dropped the v8's back in the 80's. What ever it is i hope they get it sorted soon and right for when orion comes out. And make one kicker of a GT.

**Fordman1** · 03-03-2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue terra

One thing is we dont want to lose the performance arm of FPV. If that happens team red will make more dollars and nearly push ford out of the market like what happened when ford dropped the v8's back in the 80's. What ever it is i hope they get it sorted soon and right for when orion comes out. And make one kicker of a GT.

I think they will.

Bossxr8 · 03-03-2007, 01:04 PM

Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't the FPV guys get canned because Ford and Prodrive thought it was pointless has 2 sets of marketing guys when the Ford people could easily do the job for both Ford and FPV. Why pay two teams of people to do the job one team could.

As for comments about people leaving FPV to go to TRD, how can they do that when Prodrive are only doing the assembly of the TRD products, they are not doing marketing or R&D, Toyota are doing that all themselves. Its no different to when Tickford did the assembly work on the turbo Mazda MX5.

vztrt · 03-03-2007, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

As for comments about people leaving FPV to go to TRD, how can they do that when Prodrive are only doing the assembly of the TRD products, they are not doing marketing or R&D, Toyota are doing that all themselves. Its no different to when Tickford did the assembly work on the turbo Mazda MX5.

I guess the only difference is that Ford own Mazda and dont mind if they do well.

**Fordman1** · 03-03-2007, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't the FPV guys get canned because Ford and Prodrive thought it was pointless has 2 sets of marketing guys when the Ford people could easily do the job for both Ford and FPV. Why pay two teams of people to do the job one team could.

As for comments about people leaving FPV to go to TRD, how can they do that when Prodrive are only doing the assembly of the TRD products, they are not doing marketing or R&D, Toyota are doing that all themselves. Its no different to when Tickford did the assembly work on the turbo Mazda MX5.

McPhillamy any comments ?

McPhillamy · 03-03-2007, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't the FPV guys get canned because Ford and Prodrive thought it was pointless has 2 sets of marketing guys when the Ford people could easily do the job for both Ford and FPV. Why pay two teams of people to do the job one team could.

As for comments about people leaving FPV to go to TRD, how can they do that when Prodrive are only doing the assembly of the TRD products, they are not doing marketing or R&D, Toyota are doing that all themselves. Its no different to when Tickford did the assembly work on the turbo Mazda MX5.

I don't know why the FPV guys were canned - neither do the guys themselves or anyone left at FPV, for that matter - but I do know that Ford's marketing and communications departments have suffered significant headcount reductions and budget cuts in recent times and were struggling to get their core Ford work done, let alone picking up a whole other brand.

You only have to look at a few of the other threads in this forum to see what people think of Ford's marketing performance at the moment. Their lack of success is not the fault of the people in that department, it's just hard to fight when your hands are tied behind your back. In that sort of environment, how much of a look-in do you think that FPV is going to get?

If you guys think you're not seeing much of FPV in the news or in advertising at the moment, you ain't seen nothing yet. You won't hear a peep out of them between now and the release of Orion in '08, save a couple of special editions which Prodrive will hold a gun to Ford's head to get them to put out a media release.

It's ironic that the sacking of the MD and the entire marketing department co-incides with the doubling of FPV's sales managers (from two to four) - it's going to be hard to sell cars that no one knows anything about! Years of work done by the marketing department to build the FPV brand to the point where people mention it in the same breath as HSV, and where FPV actually beat HSV in sales a couple of times last year, will go down the gurgler quicker than you can say "HSV massacres under-performing FPV".

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge FPV fan and desperately want the brand to succeed because I have long believed in what they are doing. But I think - and I know many industry insiders including Australian Muscle Car are of the same opinion - that Prodrive's actions has driven the first nail into the coffin for Ford's performance arm.

Bossxr8, I didn't say that FPV people left to go to TRD. I'm saying that FPV employees who already had a full position description now have to perform the same duties across the TRD operation as well. Therefore they are in an obvious conflict of interest position especially when, as I said, the TRD Aurion's main competitor is the F6 Typhoon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mustang70

mcphillamy,this is a ford forum, that covers so many aspects of FORD, not just current Ford , not just FPV, some of us, like myself dont care much for newer fords,its called Personal Taste, you care alot about it, as do some other posters here,wouldnt you rather the people that cared were the ones that posted,and some of us are happy to read more than post as you have obviously been yourself for some time. .

Mustang70 - I understand what you say, and I'm talking to the people who care enough about FPV to read this thread, and perhaps even make a post. Obviously I'm not directing my comments at people like yourself who are into the classic Fords and have little interest in the newer ones. I'm frankly surprised you're reading this thread. given that is the case.

Haivng watched this forum for some time I often find myself nodding in agreement with voice-of-reason posters such as Flappist, Polyal and Barraxr8, to name but a few. I know they get where I'm coming from. I've dwelt and posted on many forums other than this one for long enough to know that it takes all types, and what's important to me isn't necessarily important to the next guy. For some people, stripes and fully sik motors is all they know or care about.

My point, and I realise not everyone will pick it up, is that something very serious has gone down here, despite Ford and Prodrive's assurances to the contrary. I'm watching with interest to see where FPV, Prodrive and Ford go from here, and urge you all to do the same.

The Stylist · 03-03-2007, 02:48 PM

Thankyou for your input McPhillamy, what you have written has confirmed some of my suspicions about the running of FPV, and how Prodrive fits in to all of this.

I wish FPV success, but still have concerns about Prodrive's influence and how this influence is going to impact on FPV's future.

xe351 · 03-03-2007, 03:39 PM

It is a shame, FPV had/has such potential. Is there any way prodrive can get given the flick for a company that actually cares about its product and employees?

**Fordman1** · 03-03-2007, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McPhillamy

My point, and I realise not everyone will pick it up, is that something very serious has gone down here, despite Ford and Prodrive's assurances to the contrary. I'm watching with interest to see where FPV, Prodrive and Ford go from here, and urge you all to do the same.

I don't know where this is all going........

Having said that though, I am keeping faith in the Ford Brand and I'm hoping that all of Ford Oz's & FPV's limited resource is being pumped into a kick ar$e product which is 'Orion" Falcon & FPV GT.

It's been great to hear your thoughts mate, keep it up !!

Lapping it up................................

FPV · 03-03-2007, 04:44 PM

http://www.fpv.com.au/news/news-sear...t.aspx?ID=1363

This press release states that FPV's partnership contract between Ford and Prodrive ends on its current terms in 2008. Is there a possiblity of a totally different arrangement for the performance arm come 2008(eg. Ford own 100%, or Ford take controlling share of FPV?). Surely under the current circumstances, Ford would re-evaluate its partnership with Prodrive.

Also these special edition models, which Dave Richards has mentioned before. Are they in similar fashion to the 40th anniversary GT(As in minor visual modifications, few engineering changes?) or just a purely visually changed car?

**Fordman1** · 03-03-2007, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV

http://www.fpv.com.au/news/news-sear...t.aspx?ID=1363

This press release states that FPV's partnership contract between Ford and Prodrive ends on its current terms in 2008.

I've tried but can't find the comment about the end of the partnership.

Can you quote it ?

FPV · 03-03-2007, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

I've tried but can't find the comment about the end of the partnership.

Can you quote it ?

Whoops sorry, link doesnt seem to work well. Also i worded my setence wrong, the contract is up for renewal as of 2008, does not have to end on its current terms, but surely Ford would have to consider changes in terms of ownership and controlling rights.

Here is the link:
http://www.fpv.com.au/news/news-arch...t.aspx?ID=1363

Quote:

FPV website:
Tuesday, August 19, 2003

The joint venture agreement between Ford Australia and Prodrive to manage Ford Performance Vehicles was reviewed recently between Ford Australia President Geoff Polites and Prodrive group CEO Nick Fry, and subsequently has been extended to 2008.

MeestaNob! · 03-03-2007, 06:04 PM

I dont pretend to know anything about it, but my uneducated guess would be Prodrive are GAWN, taking their bat and ball and leaving. May not be an entirely bad thing for FPV either.

05MkIIFutura · 03-03-2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McPhillamy

My point, and I realise not everyone will pick it up, is that something very serious has gone down here, despite Ford and Prodrive's assurances to the contrary. I'm watching with interest to see where FPV, Prodrive and Ford go from here, and urge you all to do the same.

Ford have bigger issues, like making the Falcon sell at all, before they are going to even give a thought to a few thousand sales from FPV per year. No falcon = no FPV, not the other way around.

McPhillamy · 03-03-2007, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 05MkIIFutura

Ford have bigger issues, like making the Falcon sell at all, before they are going to even give a thought to a few thousand sales from FPV per year. No falcon = no FPV, not the other way around.

That's exactly right and the reason why I keep banging on about the precarious position that FPV is now in. The knights in shining armor from Ford aren't going to come swooping in on white chargers to save the day for FPV - Ford is too busy fighting its own battles with Toyota, Holden and pretty much everyone else.

As to Prodrive's contract being up for renewal in 2008 - once again, Ford isn't going to take 100% controlling interest, their priorities are very firmly elsewhere (Orion). Either Prodrive renews, another company steps in or FPV folds.

Remember too, that at this point Prodrive is the 51% majority shareholder in FPV (Ford owns 49%) so Ford isn't calling the shots on how Prodrive does its business in Australia.

Should Ford get so unhappy with the way Prodrive is running FPV, the only course of action would be to disallow Prodrive to use Ford endorsement, ie. take the "Ford" out of "Ford Performance Vehicles".

GT-E · 03-03-2007, 10:05 PM

I have read this thread with intrest and believe that Prodrive and Ford have stuffed a great brand.
Tickford and then FPV have built themselves from nothing to something in 5 years and are delivering a great product. Now we have David Flint retiring and the new boy cops the sack after 6 months in the job.
I am sure that someone in Prodrive knows why, I just hope this is not a big nail int he FPV coffin as it is hard to recover from a total loss in faith.
I hope Ford Oz tell Prodrive to F...off and take over as 100% owners with a independant management and brand structure. They do not "need" prodrive to make great cars. They have the forumla right now, just keep it going for the next 12 months and then FPV the Orion platform.

irsa76 · 03-03-2007, 10:27 PM

The problem with outfits like Prodrive and TWR is they see everything from a money making point of view. Which is fair enough since that is what business is all about. The problem with this is it causes concern when one business venture conflicts with another. Prodrive has in the past had the same issues with conflicting ventures that they have now with FPV and TRD. Interestly, we as Ford fans aren't the only ones uncomfortable with Prodrives current business ventures. I've spoken to some people from Toyota and the subject was brought up. In one conversation I was told a number of people were very uncomfortable with the arrangement due to Prodrives connection with FPV/Ford. Their concern was that FPV would be able to counter any threat from TRD oweing to inside information. As it turns out it almost looks like Prodrive has discovered that Toyota/TRD is the one to back and is starting to kill off their Ford contract. The fact the Ford contract is up for renewal next year adds weight to my theory that FPV is about to be wound up. And this is were I feel Ford has made a serious error. Why on earth would they have the outside party as the major stake holder in this sort of deal? By all means have Prodrive provide engineering expertise, but run the place your self.

**Fordman1** · 04-03-2007, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Stationwagon

The fact the Ford contract is up for renewal next year adds weight to my theory that FPV is about to be wound up. And this is were I feel Ford has made a serious error. Why on earth would they have the outside party as the major stake holder in this sort of deal? By all means have Prodrive provide engineering expertise, but run the place your self.

Maybe Ford will take over the whole performance aspect of the business, and all the models will become part of the Ford portfolio.

Just a theory.....

McPhillamy · 04-03-2007, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Maybe Ford will take over the whole performance aspect of the business, and all the models will become part of the Ford portfolio.

Just a theory.....

I seriously, seriously doubt that will happen until Ford Australia gets back on its feet and starts to pay its own way again, which is going to be a number of years, at the earliest ...

Bossxr8 · 04-03-2007, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Stationwagon

The problem with outfits like Prodrive and TWR is they see everything from a money making point of view. Which is fair enough since that is what business is all about. The problem with this is it causes concern when one business venture conflicts with another. Prodrive has in the past had the same issues with conflicting ventures that they have now with FPV and TRD. Interestly, we as Ford fans aren't the only ones uncomfortable with Prodrives current business ventures. I've spoken to some people from Toyota and the subject was brought up. In one conversation I was told a number of people were very uncomfortable with the arrangement due to Prodrives connection with FPV/Ford. Their concern was that FPV would be able to counter any threat from TRD oweing to inside information. As it turns out it almost looks like Prodrive has discovered that Toyota/TRD is the one to back and is starting to kill off their Ford contract. The fact the Ford contract is up for renewal next year adds weight to my theory that FPV is about to be wound up. And this is were I feel Ford has made a serious error. Why on earth would they have the outside party as the major stake holder in this sort of deal? By all means have Prodrive provide engineering expertise, but run the place your self.

You need to remember that Prodrive are only doing assembly work for TRD, nothing else that could affect FPV like product planning or R&D, which Toyota will handle themselves. This should mean that they won't have anyone in a position to know what FPV are doing, it should only be labour and a factory that they will provide, and FPV would have confidentiallity clauses in their contract with Prodrive anyway. Worldwide Prodrive do lots of work for many different companies that rival each other, and it would be a high priority to have confidentially between the different brands. If they didn't they would lose business. Its no different to all the various suppliers that provide parts for different brands eg. ZF providing autos for Ford, Audi, BMW etc.

Mark351 · 05-03-2007, 02:11 PM

Ford in the US abandoned the SVT group after 13 years, and it's possible the same thing could happen here.

boris · 05-03-2007, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McPhillamy

I seriously, seriously doubt that will happen until Ford Australia gets back on its feet and starts to pay its own way again, which is going to be a number of years, at the earliest ...

I thought ford Oz were paying their own way, and that ford US was just a black hole that sucks up all profit from around the world dragging ford down into gutter!

**Fordman1** · 05-03-2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McPhillamy

I seriously, seriously doubt that will happen until Ford Australia gets back on its feet and starts to pay its own way again, which is going to be a number of years, at the earliest ...

I guess you're right.

I guess that Ford think that Performance Vehicles are not their core business and they don't have the expertise to do it well. They'd probably prefer to have another company take the lead role in their development & manufacture.

Poetic Justice · 05-03-2007, 03:19 PM

Hah.. would actually be interesting to see if FPV folded.

Why? Cos if FPV folded some other company would get in to do performance vehicles for Ford and oh my they might get something right.

boris · 05-03-2007, 08:42 PM

Coswoth?

:

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackout

Hah.. would actually be interesting to see if FPV folded.

Why? Cos if FPV folded some other company would get in to do performance vehicles for Ford and oh my they might get something right.

**Fordman1** · 05-03-2007, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boris

Coswoth?

:

Do a Google mate I don't thing they'd be interested !

vztrt · 05-03-2007, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boris

I thought ford Oz were paying their own way, and that ford US was just a black hole that sucks up all profit from around the world dragging ford down into gutter!

Ford US tell Ford AU what to do. Also Ford AU is turning into the black hole of Ford Asia Pacific and South Africa.

mattcosa · 06-03-2007, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackout

Hah.. would actually be interesting to see if FPV folded.

Why? Cos if FPV folded some other company would get in to do performance vehicles for Ford and oh my they might get something right.

That would be the biggest disaster to ever hit ford australia.

I really hope were all just reading into this way too much, but its not hard too.....