Holden Bluff...Shutdown! - Page 2

XR Martin · 15-01-2007, 08:04 PM

Just because the VB-VT Commodores look similar to cars from Europe doesnt mean they have been rebadged, Holden did quite a bit of re engineering to those models, and they did say they did so much work on the Opel Senator that they would have been better to start from a clean sheet.

Do you realise the XD Falcon looks like a Ford Granada? And the EA Falcon looks like a Ford Scorpio, and the AU Falcon looks like a cockroach?

Tiapan · 15-01-2007, 08:07 PM

WOW! mitsubishi did it before holden!

Tiapan · 15-01-2007, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Do you realise the XD Falcon looks like a Ford Granada? And the EA Falcon looks like a Ford Scorpio, and the AU Falcon looks like a cockroach?

HAHA! classic ROFL

nugget378 · 15-01-2007, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by all4ford

Not sure mate, I wasn't having a stab at them or anything, thats just where the name came from. The website he has put together states GM set up shop in Australia under the name Holden, thats not really correct.

I'm pretty sure they started putting together Vauxhauls in their early early days.

To me the Falcon is the most Australian car. However, each car owns their piece of Australian automotive history.

Im pretty sure they did,I have a book here somewhere,about the early history of Ford in Aus.
They used to get the bodies built in alot of smaller works all over the country,and Holden was one of them,eventually Ford started making them themselves to better control quality.
So you could say Holden got there start in cars making Fords...

Scott · 15-01-2007, 08:52 PM

Try these (note they are from ebay and will be gone soon enough)

1988 Opel Senator (VN)

1984 Opel Senator (VK)

1995 Opel Omega (VT)

2001 Opel Omega (VT/VX)

Let's not forget other Holden "Aussie" icons that were imported from Germany like the Vauxhall Viva (HB Torana) and the plethora of othe imports throughout their range.

Scott · 15-01-2007, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Do you realise the XD Falcon looks like a Ford Granada? And the EA Falcon looks like a Ford Scorpio, and the AU Falcon looks like a cockroach?

Yes, valid indeed but your point is not in the spirit of the discussion. The title says "one eyed, blue blood Ford lovers wanted to help prove that holdens are crap and un-Australian..... can someone give me ammo to use at this webpage please".

Bucknaked · 15-01-2007, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

and the AU Falcon looks like a cockroach?

Thanks for the heads up. I'll be sure to keep the baygon away from the AU

:

Wally · 15-01-2007, 08:58 PM

Ford Car 1

Ford car 2

andrewts · 15-01-2007, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nugget378

Im pretty sure they did,I have a book here somewhere,about the early history of Ford in Aus.
They used to get the bodies built in alot of smaller works all over the country,and Holden was one of them,eventually Ford started making them themselves to better control quality.
So you could say Holden got there start in cars making Fords...

They definitely did mate, I got a DVD called "Ford Australia 75 years" and they had pictures of them.

Scott · 15-01-2007, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

Ford Car 1

Ford car 2

lol..

MITCHAY · 15-01-2007, 09:07 PM

Probably 90% of the general public couldn't give a crap what's more Aussie. I know I don't. I care what's cheaper and what I like more.

As if being Aussie was the major factor for the members of this forum buying a Falcon.

Scott · 15-01-2007, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Probably 90% of the general public couldn't give a crap what's more Aussie. I know I don't. I care what's cheaper and what I like more.

As if being Aussie was the major factor for the members of this forum buying a Falcon.

Hmmm, I always wondered why I didn't buy that Skyline...

Eu-GenixX · 15-01-2007, 09:19 PM

ok.. i'll sling in some stuff here that i've picked up in my life...

holden 'was' australian.. and GM bought them
neither holden or ford are australian if you are talking about the company...

Ford has been building and designing it's cars and engines in australia for quite some time... the EA was a massive leap in austalian automotive history.. first aussie built OHC 6...

if you neglect the parent companies for a moment.. and talk about the car itself.. being 'Australian'.. the Falcon has been a much more Australian influenced car...

Holden have used engines from OS etc.. but from what i've been told.. the late model commodores (perhaps earlier ones) were actually designed in oz.. and rebadged as Opel's etc for OS customers.. but all decisions and designs had to go thru US HQ first.. to my knowledge Ford Australia don't need to ask daddy if it's ok to build something.. (just look at the amount of money wasted on the AU.. $1billion)

The VE however has been designed in oz... and i beleive the engines are too (i could be wrong) but the press proclaimed it's the first car in oz to have spent over $1billion on development.. the AU was first.. and back in the late 80's the EA had a huge $750million which is a lot of money for back then

now.. as for the boss engines being built here... they are assembled here... the blocks are imported.. but thats it.. everything else from there up is built here

if i forgot anything i'll try and add it later.. if i'm wrong on something.. please someone correct me...

Wally · 15-01-2007, 09:31 PM

While you are at it sling a few words on how the XD got it's styling from the Cortina TE ... an English car. As a mtter of fact you might like to have a squiz at the UK Ford saloons as part of your unbiased write up. Also the history of the Zephyr in this country.

Powdered Toast Man · 15-01-2007, 10:00 PM

Actually Ford Australia do need to ask daddy if its ok to build stuff. They have to ask for the funding.

Both the Falcon and Commodore are Australian designed but they are influenced by their parent companies on design and components and always have been. If they can make use of something that already exists it will be cheaper to manufacture rather than having to design the tooling for it.

I think the current Falcon has more Australian built components compared to the current commodore. The Falcon 6 is an Australian only engine vs the new Holden V6 being a globaly designed engine for use in various GM cars around the world. Both V8s are American based. The GM V8 being fully imported (as far as I know) but would be tuned for our conditions same as the 5.4 3V which comes out of the F-Series. The Boss has the US block with aussie designed heads loosely based on the 4.6L mustang ones but we were the first to use them on the 5.4L in the world by 2 years or so.

The VE has been designed as a global platform to be used as the underpinnings of various GM cars of different sizes in the future and I believe the Orion will be as well but the current Falcon is Australia only. I would say all of their mechanical components have been designed either by evolving from something already exsisting either from previous Falcons/Commodores or models from their global operations or to be used on other vehicles in other markets. Its a global economy nowadays. The exterior & interior styling would be designed for Australian tastes.

The Magna was designed in Japan for America and sold as the Galant. Our Magna is a facelifted version with mechanical tuning and changes to suit Aussie conditions. The Camry is just sold everywhere as is with different suspension tunes for different countries.

DRU842 · 15-01-2007, 10:17 PM

Holden V6 Blocks & Heads imported.

Greenhorn · 15-01-2007, 10:23 PM

for a bit of a laugh look up holden or ford here
www.uncyclopedia.org

Franky · 16-01-2007, 12:31 AM

To be honest it's all a load of garbage. Neither are 100% Australian and it just wouldn't be possible to have the cars we have today if they were. The money both companies save by using parts imported from overseas saves millions in development costs and in the end the result is a cheaply built car that is tweaked to last on our roads.

Neither cars are perfect but both have a lot of experience building cars that are comfortable and durable enough to drive on some of our harshest roads. It's the main reason that fully imported cars like the Camry and Magna have struggled to sell over the years, people in country areas simply do not like them. Over the years though they have got better and now the Aurion and the 380 will take sales away from Ford and Holden.

Holden's advertising ploy of "Holden means a great deal to Australia" was just a cheap shot to trick people into buying cars. In a way it's true, Holden do employee thousands of people in Australia and if they were to go down then so would it's employers but then again the same implys to every car maker in Australia. In my mind Holden is Australian as Ford is but in the end it means nothing, the way things are going the more it struggles the more it will outsource and the less "Australian" it will be.

Probably the point i'm most trying to make it that in the end it doesn't matter what country it comes from or is built in, judging from VFacts Toyota is proving that.

THORNSPAWN · 16-01-2007, 02:41 AM

As far as production goes Holden use the least amount of Australian parts.
Ford = 87% Australian content
Toyota = 70 something
Mitsubishi = 60 something
Holden = 55%

Jayden · 16-01-2007, 02:58 AM

Seriously are there Hold'en-nobs out there that are still oblivious to the fact Holden is owned by GM?

Neither Ford or Holden are Australian as already mentioned, its a dumb argument but the big issue is the false perception the Holden is more Australian. then again who gives a *****.

I had a look, pretty harsh :P but true. I didnt realise they got the commodores name from opel too. And it was also the Chevrolet Commodore in Africa. Makes the XD look like a completly original design by comparison.

GK · 16-01-2007, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THORNSPAWN

As far as production goes Holden use the least amount of Australian parts.
Ford = 87% Australian content
Toyota = 70 something
Mitsubishi = 60 something
Holden = 55%

Where did you get this info from Throny? Might be an interesting read.

GK

GK · 16-01-2007, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by all4ford

To me the Falcon is the most Australian car. However, each car owns their piece of Australian automotive history.

Good point.

Good competition in the automotive market has made both Ford and holden lift their games and we are the recipient of that lifting.

I hate to think what quality Falcons would be, if holden went bust after the VN. Sobering thought!

GK

RAREV8 · 16-01-2007, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Just because the VB-VT Commodores look similar to cars from Europe doesnt mean they have been rebadged, Holden did quite a bit of re engineering to those models, and they did say they did so much work on the Opel Senator that they would have been better to start from a clean sheet.

Do you realise the XD Falcon looks like a Ford Granada? And the EA Falcon looks like a Ford Scorpio, and the AU Falcon looks like a cockroach?

The XD did in fact share some parts with the granada- front grille and lights are identical and completely interchangable. 60's model Vauxhall Cresta in Europe shared the same engines as local Holdens, i.e. 202 6cyl.

1979 saw the introduction of the Commodore and one of the leading selling points was the half galvanized bodyshell- straight from Europe.

EA series design was also taken from the Sierra sedan but all panels, etc are different- parts are not directly interchangeable.

RAREV8 · 16-01-2007, 08:12 AM

Have a look at the big Ford that we grew up with in the UK- only down side was the lack of a V8- none since the Ford Pilot, still great cars with a fair bit of power. There are V8 conversions done as they just drop straight in.
The Coupe is lovely but not as aggressive as the XA-XC versions. I would love to bring one over here sometime.......money allowing!

http://www.motorbase.com/profiles/ve...1;p=1319082482

Sladdo · 16-01-2007, 09:19 AM

Quote:

The XD did in fact share some parts with the granada- front grille and lights are identical and completely interchangable.

I read in a old STREET MACHINE mag that only the headlight lenses were interchangable.

What about "Football, meatpies, kangaroos and Holden cars"?

pauljh74 · 16-01-2007, 10:56 AM

Those pictures of Opels before not only show that the Commodore is almost an exact copy of the Opels, but that the VT design was at least 2 years old before they introduced it here! The sheet metal on just about every one is 95% the same with the only variance in the headlight/tail light areas.

As for the 380, it would be Japan/US designed mostly as they have it as the Galant over in the US and was on the roads there first - the US spec LHD Galant was evaluated for Australia. A few tweaks may have been made by MMA for Australian conditions.

JG66ME · 16-01-2007, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiapan

Hey fellas after having a total war on Ford vs Holden one of my stubborn holdne mates made a site dedicated to bagging fords for being un-Australian (if thats a word) this website pi$$ed me off!!

after a few Bundys i decided to give my own a crack.

using some quick reserch on wikiepedia and a bit of drunken ******** i put this together...i tried to make it AS NON-BIAS AS POSSIBLE, i tried to use actual facts but when bits of reserch didnt meet end-to-end i filled in the gaps.

Not sure how accurate i was but got some great pics to rub it in!! oh also i didnt tell him I made the site and he hasnt spoken to me since !!!!!

im welcome to critisism and anyone who would like to add to this website P.M. me and i will send you the password

if we all put in (with a sort of non bias attitude) we can make a great shutdown site for the VN drivers claiming 'aussie power!!'

http://fordholdenaustralia.wetpaint.com/account/tiapan

What you have writen is pretty much on the mark. The naming of brands has always been a GM marketing strategy that leads the market to belive what they drive is a local product. Todays Astra is badged as a Vauxhaul in the UK, Opel in Germany and a Holden here in AU.

Another point, Holden and Ford Australia exported a lot of cars to South Africa in the 60s and 70s. Ford renamed some of these cars for the SA market, the Falcon GT became the Fairmont GT, the Falcon ute became the Ranchero. Holden didnt rename its cars. What did hapen though was in 1970 GM in SA rebranded all of its products as Chevrolet. The Holden Monaro became the Chevrolet SS. In the HQ range you had the Chev Constantia, Kommando, and El Camino for the ute. The one tonner was called the El Toro, Opels and Vauxhauls were also badged as Chev.

See this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Constantia

What is intereasting (I lived in South Africa in the early 70s) was that most people who bought the Aussie Fords belived they where American. When Holdens where sold in SA people knew they where Australian but they had a bad name and didnt sell well, they where considerd rubish. When they rebadged as Chevy they had Chevy 250 I6 engines and where held in higher regard as American cars. Thats the market for you.

At the end of the day Ford and GM are American companys that tailor cars for the market concerned.

Steve

PS, the Aussie "Football, meat pies, Kangaroos and Holden cars" was changed for South Africa to "Bryfliese(spelling?, means BBQ), Rugby, sunny skies and Chevrolet"

Scott · 16-01-2007, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG66ME

What you have writen is pretty much on the mark. The naming of brands has always been a GM marketing strategy that leads the market to belive what they drive is a local product. Todays Astra is badged as a Vauxhaul in the UK, Opel in Germany and a Holden here in AU.

Same goes for most of this market including Vectra, Calibra, Jackeroo, Rodeo, Viva and even the good old Torana. The Barina is the reverse as it has it's product & manufacturer name changed around the globe.

Now.... what about thos rotary powered kingo's lol. The Japanese thought they were our limousine!

Jock260 · 16-01-2007, 01:01 PM

the VT was a whole new platform which continued all the way to the VZ

RAREV8 · 16-01-2007, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sladdo

I read in a old STREET MACHINE mag that only the headlight lenses were interchangable.

What about "Football, meatpies, kangaroos and Holden cars"?

I'm pretty sure that the whole grille is identical- it would make sense this way as the lights would have to fit the grille anyway.

I've got it written somewhere...if I get bored enough, I'll look it up!