Experts Call For Tougher Tyre Regulations - Page 2

prydey · 30-11-2010, 03:55 PM

i think the article is trying to make us think we need to buy a major branded tyre (preferably michelin) instead of the cheaper ones on the market.

i don't agree. i think most tyres on the market will suit mr joe average just fine. believe it or not, most people don't drive like they stole it. no excessive acceleration, no trying to create positive g forces through the bends, no power oversteer on cornering etc etc.

there may be some exceptions but most tyres will be absolutely fine for the family taxi/shopping trolley etc.

as for dunlop sport max - i chewed through a set in less than 20000km on a egas wagon. buying an expensive tyre doesn't mean it is the best tyre for your application. (i didn't buy the tyres, they were on my g6et rims when i bought them).

mac_man_luke · 30-11-2010, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

i don't agree. i think most tyres on the market will suit mr joe average just fine. believe it or not, most people don't drive like they stole it. no excessive acceleration, no trying to create positive g forces through the bends, no power oversteer on cornering etc etc.

Just because you dont intend to drive hard does not mean its not need

What happens when someone walks out in front of you? you have to swerve around something in the wet etc?

Better tyres will be there for you, cheap ones will fail you.

wrongwaynorris · 30-11-2010, 04:05 PM

Simply fail to see the negative here , unless your a tightwad who places dollars ahead of your own families and other road users safety .

BENT_8 · 30-11-2010, 04:07 PM

So i shouldnt drive round on tyres that fall below the manufacturers standards...
I wonder if i walked into one of Michelins retail outlets and ordered a set of 19's and Michelins for my AU if they'd steer me against it as they too would fall outside the manufacturers standards?

prydey · 30-11-2010, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac_man_luke

Just because you dont intend to drive hard does not mean its not need

What happens when someone walks out in front of you? you have to swerve around something in the wet etc?

Better tyres will be there for you, cheap ones will fail you.

how can you be so sure? i think people have a skewed picture in their head of the real world. there are many families and individuals out there who simply cannot afford to put premium brand tyres on their vehicles. the average family car should be able to be tyred for $600 or less at most. nearly all tyres will be perfectly suitable for 95% of the populations needs.

MAD · 30-11-2010, 04:28 PM

Having been on the receiving end of less than acceptable tyres, I can tell you that you do not need to drive with excess spirit to make them come undone.

In an emergency situation, you are more than likely going to push the tyres to their limits.
I, personally, would prefer to have large limits even if I drive at 20% of their actual capabilities for 98% of their road life.

FNQracing · 30-11-2010, 04:29 PM

I smell a rat. Big tyre manufacturer(s) loosing sales to cheaper brands. Can't/won't compete and cry.

I'm all for ridding the market of crap tyres, but I think it cuts both ways here.

wrongwaynorris · 30-11-2010, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

how can you be so sure? i think people have a skewed picture in their head of the real world. there are many families and individuals out there who simply cannot afford to put premium brand tyres on their vehicles. the average family car should be able to be tyred for $600 or less at most. nearly all tyres will be perfectly suitable for 95% of the populations needs.

4 Michelins ( 205 - 65 - 15's for EF /EL ) are currently available from Bob Jane for $480.00 fitted and balanced .

fmc351 · 30-11-2010, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

4 Michelins ( 205 - 65 - 15's for EF /EL ) are currently available from Bob Jane for $480.00 fitted and balanced .

There are a few 'quality' brands in that price range. But I wonder how long they would be that price if the $88/tyre Cheap and nasty's were gone.

GreenR · 30-11-2010, 05:13 PM

Cars are already very expensive to buy,own,run and maintain. I think the hardliners pushing for the introduction of this policy are maybe forgetting that not everybody in this country has the money to fork out for some $300 dollar a tyre Bridgestones. Most would think of their car as just a way to get around or more importantly to their job, and if they can save hundreds of dollars on tyres just so their car will go on the road than they will.

And of course Vice President of Michelin is going to come out and push for the disappearance of cheap tyres in Australia. Anybody who thinks they would want this done purely for " the safety of Australians" are naive. Classic politics I think, dish out whats wrong with the opposition.

geckoGT · 30-11-2010, 05:18 PM

Quote:

I don't think they make any "un-substantiated claims", certainly not that I have read atleast. I agree though, two brown dogs don't neccesarily behave the same.

That all depends on how you look at it.

Lets say for example Iluvdimsum tyres are selling 245/35ZR19 for $180 each and stating that they meet or exceed the OEM tyres for FPV of Dunlop Sport Maxx at $500. Yes according to load rating, speed rating and size they do meet the requirements and what they claim is true to an extent.

This is where omission is a lie, they do not mention that their tyre is not capable of the dry traction, wet traction, water clearance or lateral loading of the Dunlops. These are all factors that the DSC and ABS are calibrated for, fitting a lesser tyre leads to reduced effectiveness of these systems, leading to a higher potential for crashes.

They have not directly told a lie, yet their omission of these details leads to misinformation. Having experienced some of these tyres previously, you do get what you pay for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

how can you be so sure? i think people have a skewed picture in their head of the real world. there are many families and individuals out there who simply cannot afford to put premium brand tyres on their vehicles. the average family car should be able to be tyred for $600 or less at most. nearly all tyres will be perfectly suitable for 95% of the populations needs.

I think the concept is being lost here, we are not talking "premium tyres" unless of course that is what your car came with (a BMW M5 should get premium tyres). The concept is that standards be introduced to prevent people from fitting tyres that do not meet the OEM tyre performance levels, the tyres that the ABS and DSC was calibrated for. The fitment of the cheaper and less performing tyres can have significant detrimental effects on these safety systems.

You are right, $600 for a large family sedan is quite reasonable in stock sizes and some good tyres that are likely to comply can be had for that. I highly doubt you could get compliant tyres for the cost of some of the really cheap chinese tyres though.

Scott · 30-11-2010, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

That all depends on how you look at it.

No, we're on different pages. They don't say "we're better" or even "we're as good", they just provide specs that are as good or better. The comparison was mine, not theirs.

Bucknaked · 30-11-2010, 05:31 PM

I think its more a case of sales of their tyres suffering due to cheaper brands on the market and the excessive price for tyres they charge. They want to tighten the rules to get back more business. It's about their profit margin.

As GTP006, sell us good tyres at a good price and people. Time we stppped being raped. I am sick of million dollar companies bitchng and complaining. Same goes for Gerry Harvey. Wish he would shut his mouth. Doesn't Harvey Norman and Domain make him enough money, he wants to stop us shopping around and getting a bargain oversea's Aussie Dollar reaches parity, and nothing changes for us. We pay the same amount, they make more profit and never give back.

XR_6falcon · 30-11-2010, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearman

I've seen it recently in Ford dealers on their second hand stock, bizzare branded tyres I've never heard of and guaranteed to be cheap and nasty crap.

I know of this first hand and it really annoys me too.

They mostly use triangles where possible, personally i think its iirresponsible fitting such crap to used cars

wrongwaynorris · 30-11-2010, 05:56 PM

I wonder how many people on here would rather eat the oats after they have been through the horse ? Me I'll always eat mine before they go through the horse regardless of cost . Some people are just missing the point , we are not only talking about high performance low profile tyres . As quoted above you can currently buy 4 Michelins ( with 121 years experience ) for an EF / EL for $480.00 as opposed to $ 360.00 for absolute **** from a company with 5 years experience and NO reputation to sully . Considering most of us only replace tyres every 4 years thats 5.7 cents a week difference if ( and it's a big IF ) the crap tyres last as long as the Michies , cheap peace of mind in my book . While we are at it why dont we lower the electrical standards so " rip off artists " like Clipsal cant get at us . I can usually see both sides of an argumant but simply cannot see the other side of this one .

Franco Cozzo · 30-11-2010, 05:56 PM

Anyone here tried finding a decent tyre in 165/70/13? They don't exist. Its hard enough trying to find these in the first place, let alone good ones, Mum has some Maxxis tyres on her car and they are horrible, she can spin one of the wheels on take off no troubles in her WF Festiva.

The only good thing about them is that they don't seem to wear very much, thats about it.

http://www.bobjane.com.au/tyreset-de...h5l1f77pg7lpf1

Thats them there, and they suck.

wrongwaynorris · 30-11-2010, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Anyone here tried finding a decent tyre in 165/70/13? They don't exist. Its hard enough trying to find these in the first place, let alone good ones, Mum has some Maxxis tyres on her car and they are horrible, she can spin one of the wheels on take off no troubles in her WF Festiva.

The only good thing about them is that they don't seem to wear very much, thats about it.

http://www.bobjane.com.au/tyreset-de...h5l1f77pg7lpf1

Thats them there, and they suck.

Michelin XAS (Formula France) standard on one of the best handling cars ever made the Lotus Elan , stick like **** to a blanket .

http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/page/6713

Scott · 30-11-2010, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

Considering most of us only replace tyres every 4 years thats 5.7 cents a week difference if ( and it's a big IF ) the crap tyres last as long as the Michies....

Generalisation much??

wrongwaynorris · 30-11-2010, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP006

Generalisation much??

So !!!! If you change them every 2 years its the hugely massively burdensome princely sum of $1.05 per week , or god forbid you are a courier and change them every year its the unaffordable sum of $2.28 per week . Again assuming they will wear as well as the Michies .

Fireblade · 30-11-2010, 06:38 PM

I have to change mine every 6 months :( mine cost me $5.46 a day

geckoGT · 30-11-2010, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plarazza

Cars are already very expensive to buy,own,run and maintain. I think the hardliners pushing for the introduction of this policy are maybe forgetting that not everybody in this country has the money to fork out for some $300 dollar a tyre Bridgestones. Most would think of their car as just a way to get around or more importantly to their job, and if they can save hundreds of dollars on tyres just so their car will go on the road than they will.

And of course Vice President of Michelin is going to come out and push for the disappearance of cheap tyres in Australia. Anybody who thinks they would want this done purely for " the safety of Australians" are naive. Classic politics I think, dish out whats wrong with the opposition.

As has been pointed out, the difference between a cheap tyre and a quality tyre is about $1 a week over the 2 year life of the tyres. How many of these people that can not afford that $1 a week still manage to buy beer each week. If they had one less beer each week those better tyres would be funded. Or perhaps one less chocolate bar each week.

My problem with all this is they get to decide that the cheap and crappy tyres are good enough for them but it does not only affect them, it affects me too when they go sliding in the wet into my car. Why do I not get a choice on the type of tyre they fit, it affects me too.

I am not trying to be judgmental here but I go into the houses of low income people all the time with work (I work in Inala QLD). There is nearly always heaps of empty beer cans in the bins and a big plasma tv on the wall complete with surround sound. I guess it is really is just a case of priorities.

Quote:

No, we're on different pages. They don't say "we're better" or even "we're as good", they just provide specs that are as good or better. The comparison was mine, not theirs.

Hopefully I can say this without appearing rude because it is not my intent to appear that way.

It appears that you consider the same size, load and speed rating as the same spec. I can see your point and agree that many in the tyre buying population will have the same opinion. The simple fact is there is much more to it than that, that is the point of the new EU standards.

Also I doubt the motivation of the comments from Michelin is boost their own sales. He appears to be just commenting on the effect the EU standards which are also being adopted by the US and Japan will have here if we do not follow suit (which I bet we will).

As for the price of tyres jumping a huge amount because of these standards, I do not think they will. The name brand companies will produce compliant tyres at a competitive price and the cheap companies will have to start producing compliant tyres. The cheap companies will not disappear, they will just have to improve their product which they will do. It is a competitive market and everyone wants to make some money so therefore they will adapt. It won't become a prestige brand only market, the budget brands will keep the big boys honest.

bingoTE50 · 30-11-2010, 07:59 PM

Who is going to produce the tests that show a tyre complies.I think the whole thing is a bit of a beat up.I do not believe for one minute that a inferior tyre will affect electronics .The electronics are there for when you lose traction like oil,water,etc .The electronics will not know that the tyre on board is less grippy ,the systems will be more intrusive thats all.The issue for me is two fold -Firstly we have major tyre retailers making good profit peddling cheaper brands.Bob Jane Xenons for example,well priced performance tyre,a reputable distributor ,why worry? Well from experience absolutely up there with Aquajets in the wet ,RUBBISH.
Now the other scale ,how and why,can tyre manufacturers justify charging $500 for a tyre because fits a performance vehicle ,what a rip off . You get 25k out of them as well. You cannot tell me that they charge a fair and just price , no way. It cannot be all because of low volume,R&D , some mystical rubber compound .BS
Drop your margins for the high end tyres and people will not buy chinese tyres,simple.

GreenR · 30-11-2010, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingoTE50

Now the other scale ,how and why,can tyre manufacturers justify charging $500 for a tyre because fits a performance vehicle ,what a rip off . You get 25k out of them as well. You cannot tell me that they charge a fair and just price , no way. It cannot be all because of low volume,R&D , some mystical rubber compound .BS
Drop your margins for the high end tyres and people will not buy chinese tyres,simple.

Agreed. We live in a money hungry, capitalist society. The bigger profitable companies are used to getting away with overpriced tyres. Now that other companies are prepared to undercut them (even if the quality is not as top rated) they start shaking in their boots.

Scott · 30-11-2010, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Hopefully I can say this without appearing rude because it is not my intent to appear that way.

It appears that you consider the same size, load and speed rating as the same spec. I can see your point and agree that many in the tyre buying population will have the same opinion. The simple fact is there is much more to it than that, that is the point of the new EU standards.

It is not my opinion, but it is my opinion that it is the opinion of most tyre buyers, if they cared to look even that deep.

It was apparent to me that "Size, load and speed rating" is what you were referring to until you realised that "Dunlop Sport Maxx" spec could be found on a tyre that didn't suit your profound statement [below]. In a general statement such as yours, I wonder what other readily available specs you could have been talking about?

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

As far as I see it, if you are too cheap to buy tyres that are at least equivalent spec tot he OEM tyres your car came with, get off the road and walk.

The new standard labelling btw, encompasses Wet Grip, Fuel Efficiency and Noise. All of which I think are a good to be able to choose:

The new EU regs can be found here:
http://www.etrma.org/public/activitiestyreg.asp

Enough wind out of me, at the end of the day I think the plan is a good one too.

atec77 · 30-11-2010, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason[98.EL]

It could be interesting I can see prices of tyres going through the roof and we see more unroadworthy cars on the road due to some not being able to get new tyres

Taken from carpoint

Having walked through certain factories in Asia it was a surprise to see identical tyres with several known brand stamps and lessor known asian brands side by side , as to compounds I cant comment but I run Asian tyres on most of mycars and on the bimmers and jags the right asian tyre is very safe , it appears to me there is a large profit motive in the comments and 2/3 of no care in relation to anything else . Like some Eu tyres some imports are less tractive but a couple of bucks more will get you a good tyre irrespctive of the brand .
I have imports on the Bronco at 1/2 the big name prices and have no problem with the performace at all , but then it aint a street racer

SteveJH · 30-11-2010, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingoTE50

Who is going to produce the tests that show a tyre complies.

Who tests ADR compliance?

From memory the Bridgestones on my EL were just over $500 for a set of four (was less then $600 including alignment).

mik · 30-11-2010, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasOLane

I may be cynical but but reading between the lines it looks like Mr Gary Guthrie's Aust sales are not what he would like them to be.

i must be a cynical bugger to , i read it the same way.

MAD · 01-12-2010, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bingoTE50

Who is going to produce the tests that show a tyre complies.

When I was at RMIT, one of my mate's final year project was to create a testing rig so the SAE team could assess different tyre's performances at different slip angles with different amounts of weight being applied to the axle.

Add a microphone, some water and your just about done.

WhiteXR6 · 01-12-2010, 09:36 AM

Hi to all

First post here so here goes.I must be a cynical bugger also.Wreaks to me off a tyre manufacturer who has for many years been charging overs for its products and now has to come to the realization that there market share is diminishing through competition.

Not saying these Chinese tyres are equal to or superior by any stretch but this is an old chestnut dragged out all to often by past market leaders bashing up cheaper products.Honda done it in the past in the small engine industry and BRP also tried it on in the Marine industry.

ZC001 · 07-12-2010, 11:29 PM

This is the start of an expensive journey towards "Your car becomes a death trap and your family WILL die unless you buy the OEM tyres the manufacturer tested & calibrated their ABS/TC/DSC systems with". And we all know how much money we can save by buying tyres at the ford dealer instead of the same thing in a competitive free market ;)
PS - I don't see how much noise my tyres make is in any way a safety issue. Please explain ?