motor PCOTY - a joke?

[mickey t]

hi guys

if you wanna know something PCOTY related, just ask me. We've done all the testing, we're 1000 percent confident we got the right result and we're accountable to our readers for everything we've printed.

cheers
mt

[cs123]

Originally Posted by mickey t

hi guys

if you wanna know something PCOTY related, just ask me. We've done all the testing, we're 1000 percent confident we got the right result and we're accountable to our readers for everything we've printed.

cheers
mt

OK, bit off topic but do you ever test any cars and get the feeling that they go a bit "better" than they should?

[Brute6]

Naturally I'm a bit disappointed with Fords showing. Performance may not be everything but it does mean a fair bit in this topic. Congratulations to Porsche for the win, well deserved. Performance needs to be improved in Ford's terms. Less weight is a priority. Then we'll see how these babies perform.

[Brute6]

Originally Posted by cs123

OK, bit off topic but do you ever test any cars and get the feeling that they go a bit "better" than they should?

The moment I read that I knew exactly what you were talking about!!! And I have wondered that too.....

[MrSparkle]

Originally Posted by Brute6

The moment I read that I knew exactly what you were talking about!!! And I have wondered that too.....

There have been more than a few occasions where the cars supplied by certain manufacturers have performed *substantially* better than on other occasions and for other publications. The best example of this was the "freak" SS Commodore that they had many years back, which bollocked the then R8 Clubby of considerably more power. Simply put, this should not have happened, and even the journos at the time had a few questions about this particular press vehicle. Seems not all manufacturers provide mere "showroom" level cars for road tests :

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle

There have been more than a few occasions where the cars supplied by certain manufacturers have performed *substantially* better than on other occasions and for other publications. The best example of this was the "freak" SS Commodore that they had many years back, which bollocked the then R8 Clubby of considerably more power. Simply put, this should not have happened, and even the journos at the time had a few questions about this particular press vehicle. Seems not all manufacturers provide mere "showroom" level cars for road tests :

I don't believe those comments are accurate at all, and I reckon Mickey T will back me up on this...

Back when they ran the SV8's times, Motor speculated that the stock LS1 was similar in power to the Clubsport LS1 as they never once got a time in the Clubbie that was outstandingly quicker than the base LS1's times (although the Holden specs stated otherwise). Motor argued that either Holden were underquoting the figures to protect HSV Clubsport sales or overquoted HSV Clubsport figures.

14.1s for a manual LS1 is really nothing out of the ordinary, which is what the SV8s were running at the strip.

[MrSparkle]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

I don't believe those comments are accurate at all, and I reckon Mickey T will back me up on this...

Back when they ran the SV8's times, Motor speculated that the stock LS1 was similar in power to the Clubsport LS1 as they never once got a time in the Clubbie that was outstandingly quicker than the base LS1's times (although the Holden specs stated otherwise). Motor argued that either Holden were underquoting the figures to protect HSV Clubsport sales or overquoted HSV Clubsport figures.

14.1s for a manual LS1 is really nothing out of the ordinary, which is what the SV8s were running at the strip.

No no my good man, this was pre-SV8 days, this was a VX I think, or possibly VX2 SS.. something around that era, when they were still ~220kW and the Clubby was 250kW and a whole lot quicker (also on the strip, as proven by the old ls1.com.au boys of the time). The SV8 is a different kettle of fish and much more competitive, but at that time, the SS wasn't in the race (literally) with the Clubby.

I'll go digging and see if I can find the issue with the writeup in it..

[FNQracing]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle

There have been more than a few occasions where the cars supplied by certain manufacturers have performed *substantially* better than on other occasions and for other publications.

I have heard from a number of different journos from different publications mentioning they had a "freak" that was not representative of the same cars they had driven in the past.

That aside, consistant performance testing of cars is a very difficult ask. Different days, different drivers, different ambient temperatures, wet, damp, dry. So many variables. BUT, all cars tested on the same day in the same conditions should sort the dogs from the rest.

I'd like to see cars independantly dynoed as part of the shakedown. Including a weigh bridge stint like they do in many European tests.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle

No no my good man, this was pre-SV8 days, this was a VX I think, or possibly VX2 SS.. something around that era, when they were still ~220kW and the Clubby was 250kW and a whole lot quicker (also on the strip, as proven by the old ls1.com.au boys of the time). The SV8 is a different kettle of fish and much more competitive, but at that time, the SS wasn't in the race (literally) with the Clubby.

I'll go digging and see if I can find the issue with the writeup in it..

The fastest time recorded by Motor (or any other publication, for that matter) for an SS is 13.97s for a VY2.

Which freak were you referring to, specifically, as none of the Clubbies have got into the 13s?

[MrSparkle]

Originally Posted by FFOracing

I have heard from a number of different journos from different publications mentioning they had a "freak" that was not representative of the same cars they had driven in the past.

That aside, consistant performance testing of cars is a very difficult ask. Different days, different drivers, different ambient temperatures, wet, damp, dry. So many variables. BUT, all cars tested on the same day in the same conditions should sort the dogs from the rest.

I'd like to see cars independantly dynoed as part of the shakedown. Including a weigh bridge stint like they do in many European tests.

Spot on. What was striking about that other test was that the car was unnaturally quick. The journos were taken by surprise, since they were normally use to giving explanations as to the times being a bit "under" expectation. It's more than a little odd if the car is "overperforming" by a margin! :togo:

[MrSparkle]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

The fastest time recorded by Motor (or any other publication, for that matter) for an SS is 13.97s for a VY2.

Which freak were you referring to, specifically, as none of the Clubbies have got into the 13s?

Was thinking of the 0-100 time actually, I can't remember how it did over the quarter. Ok now I'm gonna be up half the night trying to find this frigging article, it's really nagging at me now! :

I can see where Sparkles is coming from. The quickest current result for a VY SS was 13.82sec. Yet on the strip, as in WSID for example I have not seen one stock VY SS get to a flat 14 let alone in the 13's.

[mickey t]

I'm not convinced we've ever had a dodgy one burp up out of holden. The biggest issue with the LS1 - and we've seen it time and again - is the huge variation in outputs between a good one and a bad one.

it's just enormous. we reckon the outputs can vary by, at an educated guess, 20kW, and it's a matter of where in this range Holden's quoted figure lies...

It isn't just output, though. you drive the odd one that feels so sweet and spins so freely, you'd close your eyes and swear it was a BMW V8. You drive other ones, in the same model of car, built at the same time, and you can hardly bring yourself to rev it because you fear it'll blow up, so bad are the tremors and NVH issues.

The other issue is run-in. An LS1 that's run in well (in the case of most atmo engines, wide, open throttle at low- to mid-engine speeds, then roll out, change up and do it again. it loads the motor and beds the rings in just so), is also a lot fitter than one that isn't.

The original SS time that people raise their eyebrows about was a 13.99, and that was an incredibly fit motor.

We get variations in ford V8s and T6s as well, though they're usually run-in related and the cars get fitter as they get closer to 10,000km. It's just unfortunate that, as a press fleet car, there are other things getting tired ni the body just as the engine is getting towards its fittest. to give you an idea, one press fleet km is worth about 10 normal owner km.

Some of our very own biggest eyebrow tints have been raised at WRXs. We've had cause to put boost gauges on the things and another publication has even found an aftermarket piggyback chip in one of their test cars.

These, like Ford's performance motors, don't give their best until they've got a lot of kays on them. EVOs give it up from the get-go and just keep giving.

[cs123]

That's interesting. If I were a car manufacturer I'd do everything to deliver a car in peak condition (apart from ecu tweaks). You would imagine Holden/Ford/whoever would at least make sure they run the car in properly before handing it over for testing.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by mickey t

I'm not convinced we've ever had a dodgy one burp up out of holden. The biggest issue with the LS1 - and we've seen it time and again - is the huge variation in outputs between a good one and a bad one.

it's just enormous. we reckon the outputs can vary by, at an educated guess, 20kW, and it's a matter of where in this range Holden's quoted figure lies...

It isn't just output, though. you drive the odd one that feels so sweet and spins so freely, you'd close your eyes and swear it was a BMW V8. You drive other ones, in the same model of car, built at the same time, and you can hardly bring yourself to rev it because you fear it'll blow up, so bad are the tremors and NVH issues.

The other issue is run-in. An LS1 that's run in well (in the case of most atmo engines, wide, open throttle at low- to mid-engine speeds, then roll out, change up and do it again. it loads the motor and beds the rings in just so), is also a lot fitter than one that isn't.

The original SS time that people raise their eyebrows about was a 13.99, and that was an incredibly fit motor.

We get variations in ford V8s and T6s as well, though they're usually run-in related and the cars get fitter as they get closer to 10,000km. It's just unfortunate that, as a press fleet car, there are other things getting tired ni the body just as the engine is getting towards its fittest. to give you an idea, one press fleet km is worth about 10 normal owner km.

Some of our very own biggest eyebrow tints have been raised at WRXs. We've had cause to put boost gauges on the things and another publication has even found an aftermarket piggyback chip in one of their test cars.

These, like Ford's performance motors, don't give their best until they've got a lot of kays on them. EVOs give it up from the get-go and just keep giving.

thats interesting indeed. I know for a fact that F6's are having the same issues. But with turbos this should be expected because the climate varies the results alot. The same happens to atmo's, but not so bad.

[Pik0]

I remember reading in MOTOR once about a car that was performing well above where it was expected to and one of the journalist had a car of the exact same type totally stock and they swapped the chips in the car around and low and behold, the car came back into the field it should have been around... I was always under the impression that it was a Holden or a Ford, but it could have actually been a WRX...

[SSbaby]

It's always great to have feedback from they guys who write the articles. Thanks for the heads up Mickey T! You always tell it like it is, that's why Motor is the best mag out there (IMHO)!

[mickey t]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

It's always great to have feedback from they guys who write the articles. Thanks for the heads up Mickey T! You always tell it like it is, that's why Motor is the best mag out there (IMHO)!

OK. You can stay.

I ma in the market at the moment, looking at GT-P and clubsport R8, if any body can assist me as to why buy a Ford GT, please let me know, just not sure which way to go and why, I llike the 6 litre Holden Club R8, but I always had a soft spot for a Ford.

Cheers
Rob

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by maxwell

I ma in the market at the moment, looking at GT-P and clubsport R8, if any body can assist me as to why buy a Ford GT, please let me know, just not sure which way to go and why, I llike the 6 litre Holden Club R8, but I always had a soft spot for a Ford.

Cheers
Rob

How about I assist you, maxwell?

Throw away the stop watch and drive both... if your heart is set on the GT then don't look across to the red side because the GT is a great car that will re-instill your faith in the blue oval.

[MADDER]

Originally Posted by mickey t

I'm not convinced we've ever had a dodgy one burp up out of holden. The biggest issue with the LS1 - and we've seen it time and again - is the huge variation in outputs between a good one and a bad one.

it's just enormous. we reckon the outputs can vary by, at an educated guess, 20kW, and it's a matter of where in this range Holden's quoted figure lies...

Hi mickey t and thanks for input,

It seems as you mention there's alot of variation from both camps. Despite the supposition that Holden supplies better than stock to Motor for testing, there are other mags out there that test cars from "other" sources with less than sterling results. Australian Ute tested an Auto Pursuit against a Manual VYII Maloo as it was the only chance they had to get these models at the same time. Despite manufacturer claims of the VYII actually pulling 292kw vs 290 from the Boss, the manual LS1 dynoed consistently lower than the auto Boss. Furthermore, despite the almost dead consistent power of the Boss over several dyno runs, the LS1 peaked early and then dropped off severely as it got hotter.

Aussie Brute in their first "all make" issue did a back to back between the VYII SS and BA XR8 Utes. The SS turned out to be a real dog.

SO it does go both ways.

[maverick]

Hi Rob,

Here is my two cents worth.

I chose the GTP for the following reasons:
1. Its a Ford ....yeah but I did drive a VT Commodore for a time.....
2. My main fun in the car is along twisty roads etc I found driving both that the handling on the GTP was alot better. It really gave me a lot more confidence to drive at a higher limit. Both cars have absolutely awesome brakes !
3. I also spend alot of time in the car for trips to Melbourne. The interior is alot nicer in GTP - more modern feel to the design and better seats (only pain is the manual adjustment for back/forward movement).
4. When push came to shove - I got a better deal on the Ford as well ($2k). Because FPV are still playing catchup to HSV I think the dealers need to make it a more attractive option.

[mickey t]

Originally Posted by MADDER

Hi mickey t and thanks for input,

Furthermore, despite the almost dead consistent power of the Boss over several dyno runs, the LS1 peaked early and then dropped off severely as it got hotter.

Not unexpected, that last point. One of the LS1's consistent bugbears has been its inability to maintain power output with increases in thermal load.

when we're testing them, if you haven't got a strip time out of an LS1 in three, maybe four runs, you park it, because that belly ain't gettin' any pinker. They do actually lose power. We stop them, open the bonnet and, if we're testing a few cars, give them some time to cool down before having another go. takes quite a bit of time, though.

They're alloy, where the Boss is cast iron, and self-generated heat affects them more, and not only by temping up the sacrificial air.

It's not so bad with lap times - though still apparent - because there's more underbonnet airflow. the only practical reason you'd voluntarily have a nostrilled monaro bonnet is that it pumps fresh air into the engine bay (not, as some people believe, into the inlet tract) and has a (slight) impact on the heat soak of the block.

the Boss FPVs are not as fast, but they're more consistent over the long run, and what they make when you hit the key, they pretty much keep making all day.

[rodderz]

Gday Mick

You guys have been in the past criticised (wrongly imo) for times that MOTOR achieved in the XR8 or GT's, you guys can only do what you can do on the day. As an driver of an XR8 myself (manual), do you think in your opinion that the Boss motors would take more getting used to to say an LS1? Could this be one of the very legitimate reasons why some times seem slower than others? As you would well know climatic factors, track conditions etc all play a factor in how quick a car is on the quarter too, but this could be a reason too!

A number of people including myself came to the conclusion that while they are a dead easy car to steer, hard and fast take off's do take some getting used to with the right amount of clutch slip...whether it be the weight, the dohc characterics I'm not sure. Some of us went to the drags 1st time out and got high 14's then improved by nearly a second due to just getting used to it...yet one of the admins here got a 13.6@101 in an xr8 with the only mod a cai.

What is yours and other writer's opinions on this?

cheers

[MrSparkle]

Originally Posted by mickey t

... because that belly ain't gettin' any pinker.

That is a perfectly cromulent statement :hihi: Ah, it's great to see your many and varied Simpsons quotes in the publication, enjoyable AND appropriate!

Back to the topic at hand - yes, it was that sub 14 SS that I was thinking of. Thanks for the pickup MT!

Just wondering why the Liberty 3.0 R-B was ruled out for this contest, as was the Liberty GT manual? These two cars have really struck a chord with me, they seem unbeatable as a package, particularly in terms of build quality and refinement. Are you guys planning on running some full scale tests on these? I know you did a Quick Fang on the 3.0 R-B a few issues back and seemed to love it!

Read PCOTY again last night, most enjoyable. I really truly hate each and every Lucky Bastard that has ever been. :

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by rodderz

Gday Mick

You guys have been in the past criticised (wrongly imo) for times that MOTOR achieved in the XR8 or GT's, you guys can only do what you can do on the day. As an driver of an XR8 myself (manual), do you think in your opinion that the Boss motors would take more getting used to to say an LS1? Could this be one of the very legitimate reasons why some times seem slower than others? As you would well know climatic factors, track conditions etc all play a factor in how quick a car is on the quarter too, but this could be a reason too!

A number of people including myself came to the conclusion that while they are a dead easy car to steer, hard and fast take off's do take some getting used to with the right amount of clutch slip...whether it be the weight, the dohc characterics I'm not sure. Some of us went to the drags 1st time out and got high 14's then improved by nearly a second due to just getting used to it...yet one of the admins here got a 13.6@101 in an xr8 with the only mod a cai.

What is yours and other writer's opinions on this?

cheers

Good questions, rodderz.

As mickey t alluded to ... the BOSS motors are fairly tight for the first 10K... so that must count against them... the best thing about them is their sheer consistency.

BTW, those fake side air vents on the VZ SS will serve a purpose on the upcoming VE SS, I reckon. It does get very, very hot under the bonnet of LS1 powered Commodores. The LSx engines compensate by running very rich, to cool and protect the pistons etc... thus robbing power!

[loxxr6]

How about I assist you, maxwell?

Throw away the stop watch and drive both...

Wise words. Buy what feels best for you.

[loxxr6]

BTW, those fake side air vents on the VZ SS will serve a purpose on the upcoming VE SS, I reckon. It does get very, very hot under the bonnet of LS1 powered Commodores.

Are they gonna need the vents for when the factory option supercharger kits are added ? A bit more ventilation to rid the heat generated ??