Common Sense, Being Nannied, The Actions Of A Few

[MAD]

If anything, worksafe and all this legislation is making common sense even rarer and the everyday fool even dumber.
You don't need to use your brain when they introduce all this guff to protect you from yourself.
How is anyone supposed to learn anything when they can only do what they are told?

[XR6TCraig]

The only real plus from the overbearing OH&S laws is the protection it gives to innocent people from others.

I'm quite capable of working out what I can/should be doing to look after myself. Its all the other bozos out there which worry me a bit.

I work in mining and there is the potential for serious life taking or injury in my field. You have explosives, 300 tonne haul trucks, draglines the size of office blocks, 5klm long conveyors strong enough to rip anyone or anything into many pieces, not to mention things like high wall collapses,etc. Having what can and cant be done around this kind of stuff heavily regulated with legislation, backed up with training, alcohol and drug testing and a fatigue management plans is a good thing.

Being told I can only lift 5kg above my shoulders or from below my ankles, or that I have to wear PPE for tasks that pose zero risks isn't!

[Serial_Fool]

It is all well and good to complain over the internet but what are YOU doing to reverse the trend?

It comes down to supporting who you want to lead you, AFF has a specific NO POLITICS policy so I'll just leave you with this:

There is a libertarian party in Australia, find them, support them.

[DRU842]

I have lobbied, in writing & personally, to my local members to roll-back the diminished responsibility aspects of the legal system. If you are drunk or on drugs, self administered, why are you less responsible for your actions?

[bungarra]

All in all we have legislated out commom sense. I see it on the mines all the time, we are too busy doing take 5's and JHA's that to do a 10 minute job takes an hour of paperwork!! No one really has to think as everything is written sown in 200 page documents by lawyers.

Time someone legislated that if you learn to drive and accept that you have passed your test then you accept all risks and responsibilities for your actions. No use blaming anyone else if you put your car into another car or into a lamp post or blaming the other car you were illegally racing. Don't blame the drugs or the alcohol, you decided to use the product, don't blame the argument/split with your partner.

PArents have to stop pretending their kid doing 140 in q 70 zone through an intersection gets airborne and kills himeself and their friends by hitting half way up a tree wasn't a hoon and it must have been the roads fault. Heard that a few times on different roads.

The litigation factor was legislated in by lawyers who convinced the governments that we can not think for ourselves and need to be wrapped in cotton wool.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by bungarra

The litigation factor was legislated in by lawyers who convinced the governments that we can not think for ourselves and need to be wrapped in cotton wool.

True, very true.

However we must also blame our selves for our own actions too.
Everyday you see acts of stupidity at work, in public, driving etc etc..
Yet it doesnt bother these people one bit that what they did was dangerous and possibly have killed/ injured someone or themselves.

Its almost "socially" acceptable to be inconsiderate and foolish....

[MAD]

I think that a big part of the reason there are more and more stupid things happening on worksites, is because common sense is being paperworked out of society. If a choice has to be made that doesnt have a specific 'work procedure' the odds on a choice, without any common sense, being a clever one arent stacked very well.

Having a couple of beers at lunch then operating a forklift in a high pedestrian traffic area is not clever. Things like this obvioulsy need to be banned. Paper work wont solve it, maybe through education, or, heaven forbid, fire the person. Replace them with someone that has the common sense not to do it.

The goal posts shouldnt be moved closer just so idiots can get a job too.

[bungarra]

Originally Posted by MAD

I think that a big part of the reason there are more and more stupid things happening on worksites, is because common sense is being paperworked out of society. If a choice has to be made that doesnt have a specific 'work procedure' the odds on a choice, without any common sense, being a clever one arent stacked very well.

Having a couple of beers at lunch then operating a forklift in a high pedestrian traffic area is not clever. Things like this obvioulsy need to be banned. Paper work wont solve it, maybe through education, or, heaven forbid, fire the person. Replace them with someone that has the common sense not to do it.

The goal posts shouldnt be moved closer just so idiots can get a job too.

Agree whole heartedly with you on this one.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by bungarra

All in all we have legislated out commom sense. I see it on the mines all the time, we are too busy doing take 5's and JHA's that to do a 10 minute job takes an hour of paperwork!! No one really has to think as everything is written sown in 200 page documents by lawyers.

Oh please a JSA doesn't take that long (I do them quite regularly), and if the same job over and over again you can use the same JSA. Then you have SOP's if its the same job done by different people.

[Auturbo6]

Originally Posted by Riksta

This has been something that has been playing on my mind for quite some time now and I'm going to try use a few examples either specific or in general to highlight my points.

What the hell happened to common sense in this world? It seems the profound lack of it these days is leading us to become more & more babysat or "nannied", and the actions of a few who do display a complete lack of commonsense to affect the rest of the general population.

Example 1 is the internet filter. Parents should be responsible for their children and what they view on the internet. Because some parents should not be allowed to be parents, but biology still allows them, we have kids looking at stuff they shouldn't be on the internet and now there's talk (I believe it has been shelved for the time being though) of filtering the internet. No ifs not buts, but it will be filtered. That should stop the kids looking at stuff they shouldn't. Why do we need the filter, when if parents exhibited common sense and acted accordingly they would be monitoring their children and not allowing them to view that material in the first place.

Example 2 relates to cars and speed limits. Why should roads that have been 100km/h for many months or years be dropped to a lower speed limit because somebody has an accident and dies? Now I do not wish to downplay the severity of death, and I agree that it is a terrible thing, but for a government to simply say "that road must be unsafe" after a fatality when hundreds, if not thousands, of cars use that same piece of road every day is just ridiculous. Accidents do happen and sometimes do result in fatalities, and while I agree that this is tragic and not a nice thing to happen, does the speed limit really need to be dropped?

Example 3 also relates to cars and is in relation to what you can and can't have on your bonnet or sticking out of your bonnet. From what I have read, things aren't allowed to protrude from your bonnet or be certain angles or heights due to the possibility to cause harm should you hit a pedestrian. Now I remember reading a report that a stupidly high percentage of vehicle-pedestrian accidents were caused by the pedestrian not paying attention, not looking before crossing and all that kind of thing. So what this law is saying is basically you can run in front of a car, because we'll make it illegal for a car to have anything that could harm you more than you would have normally been. Should the pedestrian not be held more accountable for their own actions?

Example 4 relates to injuries and things like that people obtain accidentally. When I was a kid, if I fell off play equipment into the bark and skun my knee, one of my parents would usually dump a bottle of dettol which hurt more than the original injury onto it, put a band aid on and tell you to go play some more. These days should a kid be hurt the parents would get stupidly high payouts, hence the fact you see playgrounds that are almost injury proof these days. What happened to the common sense of kids DO hurt themselves, its part of being a kid? Any injury to a child isn't nice and a terrible thing, but does it really warrant going as far as society has these days to cotton wool them?

And part 2 of example 4 relates to the adult versions, and us having to have warnings all over everything, because god forbid that coffee you just ordered might be hot. I would never have guessed and I'm glad there's that label on there to tell me its hot. Seriously people, common sense!

Example 5 relates to dangerous items and stupidity. Things like fireworks being made illegal. Why not make them legal for people to use sensibly, and if they can't use them properly and blow off a hand, its pretty well their own fault. Why does society deem the need to ban these things from those of us who WOULD use common sense just because there's an idiot portion of society who wouldn't? I'm not saying lets go make everything dangerous legal, for example guns, I agree to an extent with the gun laws (but not wholly).

I'm just sick and tired of news stories and things like that where people are injured or killed due to actions of their own which, should they have actually exhibited some common sense, never would have happened. If I jump over my neighbour's fence, poke their dog with a cattle prod and get bitten because of it I only have myself to blame. Well, it seems in this day and age I could probably blame the neighbour for having a dog, and the fence builder for not making the fence impenetrable.

And I leave you with a clip from Absolutely Fabulous from many years ago which was relevant then and still relevant today. Apologies for the rant, but thanks for reading.

Couldn't of said it better myself, good work.

[v gate]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Oh please a JSA doesn't take that long (I do them quite regularly), and if the same job over and over again you can use the same JSA. Then you have SOP's if its the same job done by different people.

Thats true to a point but in mining or construction now after you have done your jsa it is then given to saftey to approve. It can easily turn into a 24hr wait. You could also have it handed back to you and get told that its no good so your back to square one.
Ive had safety clowns that come from food/ teaching/ medical backgrounds tell me all about construction. I dont profess to know it all but i think i may have learnt what my job is and how to go about it (22 years doing it).
I fully understand why the rules are being enforced the way they are and its because there are some really dumb *** mofos out there. It just shits me to tears to see everyone has to be bundled into the same boat because of a few that dont know or dont care.
We all make mistakes just some make them bigger or more often.

[platinumXR]

I think that the older you get, the more aware you become (in general) and you just notice things more - the stupid people have always been there...though I do agree with a seemingly dumbing down of the masses to promote content and control. Sound's like a book I read years ago.

Lack of accountability? YES, overly litigious? not so much anymore, but sure, apathetic? hell yes...we (and please don't take this as a direct shot at anyone here on the forum) are all responsible because we see the problem, complain, receive satisfaction from like minded feedback...but then go back to being content and watching X-Factor / Funniest Home Videos / A Current Affair or Big Brother and melting our brains further because it's too hard or someone elses job - you don't care until it affects you directly.

Having said that, there are (thankfully) people who do see this, and do make effort to influence or guide 'people in need' in the correct or desired direction, but then again...I guess everyone has a different idea of what that direction is. Knowing what is and or should be right and true is only part of the battle in this context.

Blanket regulation by Gummint's is just a lazy attempt to appease minority stakeholders that have public sway with media that influence stupid people. Apathy on their behalf.

JMHO.

[zdcol71]

Refer back to the OP and you will see there is no mention made of OH&S, but that has made its' way into the discussion.
Any one who really thinks that OH&S legislation is ludicrous, or dumbing the workforce down, please take just a couple of minutes to have a look at trends in workplace injuries and fatalities.We still kill far too many of our mates at work, but you will find that a large number of these (preventable) injuries and fatalities occur in work environments that pay scant respect to OH&S legislation.
If you think it's too much effort to complete a JHA, JHSA, SOP (or a hundred other things I have heard them called), stop and think how many injuries and deaths these are actually preventing each year.And when you are required to attend to all the "bullsh!t paper work" when you do sustain a paper cut ,or foreign body in your eye,or any other minor injury that you think shouldn't need to be reported, then better that, I say, than preparing a report that will end up with the coroner the family of someone else we have killed at work.

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

Refer back to the OP and you will see there is no mention made of OH&S, but that has made its' way into the discussion.
Any one who really thinks that OH&S legislation is ludicrous, or dumbing the workforce down, please take just a couple of minutes to have a look at trends in workplace injuries and fatalities.We still kill far too many of our mates at work, but you will find that a large number of these (preventable) injuries and fatalities occur in work environments that pay scant respect to OH&S legislation.
If you think it's too much effort to complete a JHA, JHSA, SOP (or a hundred other things I have heard them called), stop and think how many injuries and deaths these are actually preventing each year.And when you are required to attend to all the "bullsh!t paper work" when you do sustain a paper cut ,or foreign body in your eye,or any other minor injury that you think shouldn't need to be reported, then better that, I say, than preparing a report that will end up with the coroner the family of someone else we have killed at work.

Yep there you go, apathy - "why can't someone else do it?" Or employers shirking responsibility because it takes a bit of extra time and effort.

If you see a problem - fix it, don't assume someone else will...they are thinking the same thing.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

Refer back to the OP and you will see there is no mention made of OH&S, but that has made its' way into the discussion.
Any one who really thinks that OH&S legislation is ludicrous, or dumbing the workforce down, please take just a couple of minutes to have a look at trends in workplace injuries and fatalities.We still kill far too many of our mates at work, but you will find that a large number of these (preventable) injuries and fatalities occur in work environments that pay scant respect to OH&S legislation.
If you think it's too much effort to complete a JHA, JHSA, SOP (or a hundred other things I have heard them called), stop and think how many injuries and deaths these are actually preventing each year.And when you are required to attend to all the "bullsh!t paper work" when you do sustain a paper cut ,or foreign body in your eye,or any other minor injury that you think shouldn't need to be reported, then better that, I say, than preparing a report that will end up with the coroner the family of someone else we have killed at work.

JSEA's and Take 5's are the biggest load of crap i've ever came across.. nothing more than a shift of blame back to YOU the worker......

[zdcol71]

Funny how there seems to be a huge amount of opinion on this forum about taking ownership of issues, and being responsible for ones own actions, but the single biggest tool used on worksites to empower ownership of ones safety to a worker is "the biggest load of crap" Given that the intent of these tools is to minimise or eliminate accidents why should there be a shift of "blame" towards anyone?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

Funny how there seems to be a huge amount of opinion on this forum about taking ownership of issues, and being responsible for ones own actions, but the single biggest tool used on worksites to empower ownership of ones safety to a worker is "the biggest load of crap" Given that the intent of these tools is to minimise or eliminate accidents why should there be a shift of "blame" towards anyone?

Bingo!

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

Funny how there seems to be a huge amount of opinion on this forum about taking ownership of issues, and being responsible for ones own actions, but the single biggest tool used on worksites to empower ownership of ones safety to a worker is "the biggest load of crap" Given that the intent of these tools is to minimise or eliminate accidents why should there be a shift of "blame" towards anyone?

your not employed within a safety dept are you..??.. lol..

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

your not employed within a safety dept are you..??.. lol..

No...I'm not, but I do have to deal with them on a daily basis. The (average) safety rep on any given site is a product of legislative requirement,and not neccessarily serving the best health and safety needs of the working man/woman.They have actually more to do with "enforcing" OH&S policy and procedures that are a direct result of a genuine belief,(IMO), from employers, unions, (and to a large extent,insurance companies), that we don't have to keep killing and maiming people at work.
Given that the manufacturing industry at the moment is in boom cycle, and a lot of companies are being forced to hire people who are not exactly the most experienced workers around, I think any JHA,etc that they have to complete to make them think of the very real dangers at any given workplace, then all the better.
Anyway, my apologies, this was not part of the OP. Maybe there is room for a OH&S debate somewhere else?

[Dragoneletra]

The thing is, it's all about insurance. It's not really about safety anymore, it's gone beyond that. Its now all about money.
I worked for a big electrical company, huge company. You get given a booklet, oh about 100 pages long. It's all about safety standards and the like and why you MUST follow them to the letter.

Here are two very different examples of company/insurance stupidity.


Example one: you must wear safety glasses and a safety face shield when using a 5 inch grinder. Is the shield not enough ? Or the glasses ? (if you are only worried about your vision) But if you don't wear all of it, oh, look, you miss out on 89% of your workers health insurance pay out. No matter if you where at fault or not.

Or.

Example two: The uniform is long pants and a long shirt (company does a little industrial but mainly commercial). No worries, kinda pretty hot in the tropics, but anyway we all just complain quietly.
Then they score this contract where you have to climb into about 300 roof spaces in darwin and test components of certain installations. You still have to wear lace up boots(high cut), long pants and long shirt. (i'm 6'3 btw) and no buts, if you don't wear the uniform and you suffer heat stroke (freaking ironic) then bad luck, you weren't wearing the correct PPE.
Since when does deliberately making someone hot with a uniform and then sending them up into 65degree (often this hot) roof spaces become correct PPE ?

Everything is over regulated to the point of stupidity. I dread the day that there are no more darwin awards, because it will be so commonplace. At the moment the normal people among us can sit back and laugh at the gene pool scum making this place a disaster zone and taking themselves out of the equation (figure of speech, laughing is cruel). But eventually, we'll all conform to the majority and become mindless robots.

The more we are 'told' how to do things, the less we will learn. The more chance we will harm ourselves and others because the less experience we will have. The slower the process becomes when you need to fill out a JSA and a SMWS just cos you need to cross a job site, got to the hot box and take a load off. That 5 minute cr4p just took 45 minutes.

Mind you, i'm all about safety. If I see someone not wearing glasses and I have a spare set (no matter who they work for) i'll tell them to put them on etc.

The more you are micro managed and over regulated, The bigger the screw ups, the more costly progress becomes, the less wiggle room there is for the little people trying to get a 'deserved' payout from the insurance companies, the better protected emloyers or manafacturers are, and ultimately, the more unhappy we'll all be.

I realise my post goes off on a little bit of a tangent there, but it is all part of the same problem. Everything is relative, whether its a job site or the play equiptment.

Jc

[NC1183]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

JSEA's and Take 5's are the biggest load of crap i've ever came across.. nothing more than a shift of blame back to YOU the worker......

So doing a piece of paperwork, that gives you reminders on things on how to do your job safely, thats all JSA, HIRAC'S ETC are, memory joggers for the task at hand, are a load of crap and put the blame back on you, which is where the blame should rest. If you stuff up, you pay the price, either with an injury, death or loose your job.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by NC1183

So doing a piece of paperwork, that gives you reminders on things on how to do your job safely, thats all JSA, HIRAC'S ETC are, memory joggers for the task at hand, are a load of crap and put the blame back on you, which is where the blame should rest. If you stuff up, you pay the price, either with an injury, death or loose your job.

memory joggers.. lol.. your not employed within a safety dept are you..??..

[Dragoneletra]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

Any one who really thinks that OH&S legislation is ludicrous, or dumbing the workforce down, please take just a couple of minutes to have a look at trends in workplace injuries and fatalities.We still kill far too many of our mates at work, but you will find that a large number of these (preventable) injuries and fatalities occur in work environments that pay scant respect to OH&S legislation.

I think there is a time and place for JSA SMWS. etc. Government contracts have implemented them, mines for some time and thats fair enough. There is a lot of accountability in these industries. It's just the way they were set up.(ever notice why government contracts always end up being so much more expensive than if the private sector was organising it?)
But a lot of the smaller scale stuff, where we are starting to find them pop up all the time, don't need them I think. I'm certainly not suggesting that there is no need for safety, because i'm all for it. I just don't think safety has to be so expensive, but it is. So perhaps we are teaching/sharing the knowledge the wrong way ? Especially when people still keep hurting themselves doing moronic things that they should know about.

I don't believe you need JSA or SMWS all the time like some of these big companies do. I believe a lot of the big companies are more interested in saving dollars here and there instead of paying out on work health insurance. Thats just my belief. The way a lot of these things are written leaves very little room for the employee it's all about the company. And if you won't sign on the dotted line, no job.

The companies I worked for as an apprentice (adult apprentice, so a different perspective) where generally pretty good. Supplying medical kits, first aid training once a year etc to all employees and the like. We had one injury that I knew about in about 12 months on the job site I was on. Which was when old mate dropped a 4x6 on my leg as he walked past and a 4 inch nail was hanging out of it. Easily doubt with (with a few choice words, some anticeptic and a trip to the docs due to excessive blood flow and depth)
These companies never and I very much doubt, will ever, have enforced JSA or SMWS (unless it's forced on them). They are still very safe places to work, and 'teach' their apprentices and trainees the 'right' way to do things. I think thats more important than being 'told' that it's 'company policy' or else.

There will always be injury. It's a fact. You will not stop human nature, nor will you stop disobedience of 'policy' or 'laws' etc. JSA SWMS whatever...only experience and education will change things I think.

just my overly long 2 cents worth.

Jc

[Dragoneletra]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

JSEA's and Take 5's are the biggest load of crap i've ever came across.. nothing more than a shift of blame back to YOU the worker......

TEN points to YOU !

That is CCOOOOOOOREEEECT !

Read the fine print. Basically, we're screwed. Big companies for employment ? for me again ? No way.

Jc

[Dragoneletra]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

No...I'm not, but I do have to deal with them on a daily basis. The (average) safety rep on any given site is a product of legislative requirement,and not neccessarily serving the best health and safety needs of the working man/woman.They have actually more to do with "enforcing" OH&S policy and procedures that are a direct result of a genuine belief,(IMO), from employers, unions, (and to a large extent,insurance companies), that we don't have to keep killing and maiming people at work.

Agreed, and the last few i've seen haven't done much a job about it either. When there is enforcement of proceedures etc, all the huff and bluster comes forth. As to actually walking around with your eyes open instead of wide shut ? Dreaming. I could mention hundreds of occurances, if I could remember them all. And as far as the last year goes, all of them have had JSA and SMWS involved.

Originally Posted by zdcol71

Given that the manufacturing industry at the moment is in boom cycle, and a lot of companies are being forced to hire people who are not exactly the most experienced workers around, I think any JHA,etc that they have to complete to make them think of the very real dangers at any given workplace, then all the better.

Very true. Sort of like how low the bar is for the standard of workmanship these days (i'm still digging for it trying to find it)

Originally Posted by zdcol71

Anyway, my apologies, this was not part of the OP. Maybe there is room for a OH&S debate somewhere else?

oops.

Jc

[fairBA]

Riksta for PM

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by Dragoneletra

I think there is a time and place for JSA SMWS. etc. Government contracts have implemented them, mines for some time and thats fair enough. There is a lot of accountability in these industries. It's just the way they were set up.(ever notice why government contracts always end up being so much more expensive than if the private sector was organising it?)
But a lot of the smaller scale stuff, where we are starting to find them pop up all the time, don't need them I think. I'm certainly not suggesting that there is no need for safety, because i'm all for it. I just don't think safety has to be so expensive, but it is. So perhaps we are teaching/sharing the knowledge the wrong way ? Especially when people still keep hurting themselves doing moronic things that they should know about.

I don't believe you need JSA or SMWS all the time like some of these big companies do. I believe a lot of the big companies are more interested in saving dollars here and there instead of paying out on work health insurance. Thats just my belief. The way a lot of these things are written leaves very little room for the employee it's all about the company. And if you won't sign on the dotted line, no job.

The companies I worked for as an apprentice (adult apprentice, so a different perspective) where generally pretty good. Supplying medical kits, first aid training once a year etc to all employees and the like. We had one injury that I knew about in about 12 months on the job site I was on. Which was when old mate dropped a 4x6 on my leg as he walked past and a 4 inch nail was hanging out of it. Easily doubt with (with a few choice words, some anticeptic and a trip to the docs due to excessive blood flow and depth)
These companies never and I very much doubt, will ever, have enforced JSA or SMWS (unless it's forced on them). They are still very safe places to work, and 'teach' their apprentices and trainees the 'right' way to do things. I think thats more important than being 'told' that it's 'company policy' or else.

There will always be injury. It's a fact. You will not stop human nature, nor will you stop disobedience of 'policy' or 'laws' etc. JSA SWMS whatever...only experience and education will change things I think.

just my overly long 2 cents worth.

Jc

No disrespect Jc, but I think your "overly long 2 cents worth" was worth just about that.
It actually seems you are contradicting yourself with everything you say.

[Dragoneletra]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

No disrespect Jc, but I think your "overly long 2 cents worth" was worth just about that.
It actually seems you are contradicting yourself with everything you say.

could be, day off and all. Being half asleep. lol.I'm not looking for a debate either

Where would you like clarification ?

Jc

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Dragoneletra

TEN points to YOU !

That is CCOOOOOOOREEEECT !

Read the fine print. Basically, we're screwed. Big companies for employment ? for me again ? No way.

Jc

yep they are a signed legal document and the first stop when the witch hunt starts.... they will try and pin you on any little step you may have done incorrect or in the wrong sequence.... and if all else fails.. YOU have failed to have this step or recognise this hazard.. REAM.. REAM.. here comes captain pineapple to poor mr worker seen enough to know they are a shift of blame.. wakeup all the big boys are run by lawyers and bean counters.......

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by Dragoneletra

could be, day off and all. Being half asleep. lol.I'm not looking for a debate either

Where would you like clarification ?

Jc

No, No need for a debate, we are a little off topic, PM me, cheers