Buy a Fiesta diesel, Toyota Hybrid or similar ?

[You Yangs]

I'm looking foward to Ecoboost Falcon more than anything else.
I'll be moving further away from work next year and I'm looking for a real hwy cruiser since 90% of the journey is motorway.

[Rodge]

Sorry Pal I figured you must have been pulling my leg. Funnily enough a comfortably well off lawyer mate of mine just bought a ten year old Toyota Corolla for exactly the reasons you've outlined. Naturally I gave him a damm good telling-off, the least he could have done was bought his wife a slightly more modern one.

[SteveJH]

Rodge,

Why would you buy a second car to drive around during the week while still keeping the current one?

Before you actually start saving money you have to make up for the depreciation from the new car (or what you pay for it if you don't plan on ever selling it) plus the registration and insurance cost.

I'm sure that money would buy a heck of a lot of fuel for your GT-P.

[BlueFG2]

I don't care how expensive fossil fuels get, I am a creature of habit and habits die hard, there will have to be no fuel left on earth before I drive a hybrid, LPG is the limit I will go to

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Rodge,

Why would you buy a second car to drive around during the week while still keeping the current one?

Before you actually start saving money you have to make up for the depreciation from the new car (or what you pay for it if you don't plan on ever selling it) plus the registration and insurance cost.

I'm sure that money would buy a heck of a lot of fuel for your GT-P.

Quite right, fuel would have to go much higher before buying a small mid-week car makes financial sense, which is what I'm getting at with the poll question, how do you cope if / when fuel prices go ballistic ?

To be honest on short city trips (and I do a lot of them), the GT-P is using around 18-20 litres per 100 km's, whereas a small car could be in some cases as low as 4-5 litres per 100 km's, so the FPV could be burning 4-5 times the fuel.

One needs to consider the extra capital tied up in the second car and the opportunity cost of what they could have earned on an investment utilising that capital elsewhere, or the cost of financing it if they're going that way, the extra registration, insurance and maintenance, then there's depreciation considerations both on the second car and the fact that your main performance car will last longer and may not depreciate as quickly, really its quite a complex picture and my gut feel is fuel needs to be substaintially higher than where it is now before it stacks up on a financial basis.

Really the poll should probably have had a sixth option, use your car less.
I suspect that's quite a common stratagy for coping with temporary large spikes in fuel costs like what occurred in the winter of 2008. The difference between winter 2008 and next time it happens is the much higher prices might stick around or even get much worse. Who knows though, there's a valid school of thought that says worry less, play more

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Rodge,

Why would you buy a second car to drive around during the week while still keeping the current one?

Before you actually start saving money you have to make up for the depreciation from the new car (or what you pay for it if you don't plan on ever selling it) plus the registration and insurance cost.

I'm sure that money would buy a heck of a lot of fuel for your GT-P.

A lot of families have two cars, so you could use an efficient vehicle to do duties
in the stop and go traffic while keeping the second vehicle, perhaps a luxury/SUV/Performance
vehicle for your partner to do suburban hops and for weekend running

[2011G6E]

Nothing.

Why? I'll copy and paste what I wrote in that thread about the Nissan Leaf and other hopeless and useless little exhaust-shifting electric cars...

"In the seventies they said fuel was running out, in the early eighties I saw motoring books looking to the future (I have one by Peter Wherrit) saying that around the year 2000 oil would be "virtually all gone" and electric cars would be the commonest form of transport.

Unless the government grows a pair and we go nuclear, electricity on a wide scale to suit our vast country will be coal produced, with some gas fired as well. Solar is an expensive pipe-dream for anything but individual house use, wind power has it's knockers as well and is unreliable, tidal and hydro have the greenies up in arms whenever a project is mentioned, and all of them share the same problem that you can't reliably store electricity...it has to be produced pretty much as needed, on demand, and for base-load needs such as when everyone turns on the power at 6pm at night.
There's no easy answers, there's no magic bullet, and fusion power is still a long way off, so we have to make best with what we have and use it efficiently.

I just took the missus over to Blackwater in the G6E...the daughter in law and grandson were in the back as well, it's nearly 40 degrees here and there at the moment, stinking hot, we had the air con going and cruise control set on 103kph. The trip computer said we were returning about 7.5 ltr/100km. If you'd have walked up to an 18 year old me back in 1983 with my 270hp Valiant Charger that burned $50+ of super a week when it was 36 cents a liter, and told me that in the second decade of the 21st century I would own a big Australian made sedan with a 4 liter straight six that produced 270hp and returned nearly 38mpg when driven even reasonably carefully, I'd have laughed in your face."

Economies, even of big cars, are getting better and better. Some years back after road testing Corollas and other smaller cars, and noticing the fuel economy wasn't that markedly better than a big car, we decided why jam ourselves into a small car when a big one using slightly more fuel will do?

The trick is that the 'second car" has to obviously be some brand new and very expensive hybrid or electric car...not just any old four cylinder car. Our second car is a 1982 Toyota Celica...two liter four cylinder, five speed manual. It actually gets worse fuel economy on the highway (and, I suspect, around town sometimes) than our G6E...

There needs to be an option "buy a motorbike"...even an old one uses far less fuel than practically all cars on the market, and even big ones use less than all but hybrids. Add in the small amount of natural resources used to build one, thier small footprint in cities so you can pack heaps of them in, and the fact that the average bike is kept on the road far longer than the average car so you're not replacing them every twelve months and burning up resources in production, and they make great environmental sense.

[EFFalcon]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

There needs to be an option "buy a motorbike"...even an old one uses far less fuel than practically all cars on the market, and even big ones use less than all but hybrids. Add in the small amount of natural resources used to build one, thier small footprint in cities so you can pack heaps of them in, and the fact that the average bike is kept on the road far longer than the average car so you're not replacing them every twelve months and burning up resources in production, and they make great environmental sense.

Helps thin the herd too.

[Dennis8]

I chose the LPG option and have done so for the last 6 years or so. Had an EF fairmont previously, now a BA wagon (3.5 years so far) on SVI, roughly $36 (at 52c/l) to fill up and get around 430km, more on the highway. Can't go wrong really when I add up how much I've saved over the years.

Still trying to get that capri I've always wanted as a weekender, the wagon will continue with daily family duties for many years to come hopefully, I don't need the latest and greatest for daily duties, the BA is comfy/modern enough for years to come.

Cheers
Dennis

[EFFalcon]

I've had LPG on my EF for 10 years, have reaped the benefits too.
Looking at buying another car for my wife, to replace her V8 BA, considering a diesel Mondeo.
The econetic would be cool for bulk cheapness.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by jpd80

A lot of families have two cars, so you could use an efficient vehicle to do duties
in the stop and go traffic while keeping the second vehicle, perhaps a luxury/SUV/Performance
vehicle for your partner to do suburban hops and for weekend running

They already have a Civic hybrid, Rodge is talking about getting a Prius for himself in addition and only driving the GT-P on the weekend.

Which makes me wonder who drives their S-class.

(I know all this from his previous signature before he changed it)

[Rodge]

We use the diesel Merc as our luxury cruiser for the weekends. It only gets about 5,000 km's use per annum so it'll last a very, very long time and yes fuel really would have to go ballistic before I could justify yet another car for my own use. Swapping the GT-P out for a liquid injection LPG G6E is a far more logical choice a few years down the track or maybe just get out of the GT-P and make more use of the other two. Wifey thinks we'd be barking mad to have four vehicles and she's the one thinking logically for once

[RedHotGT]

I don't understand the discussion at all....

The Australian Government would be in HUGE strife if large numbers of society and business could not afford the hikes in oil/petrol/all fuels regardless...

And it won't happen quickly, there will be plenty of notice if oil reserves were to 'dry' up...

Given that a lot of our oil consumption is actually in aviation, as well as production/manufacturing... there would be a fairly intense focus on an alternative...

Otherwise the world as we know it would more or less stop spinning... Just like it did when the Y2K bug bit us... Oh wait... That never happened...

And while we're alive - nor will the drought of Oil....

[Rodge]

^^ You should have a look at a graph of the long term price of oil over the last ten years mate. Even if you choose to ignore the $147 price spike in the winter of 2008 and write it off as a speculators driven frenzy, there's been a fairly steady and gradual rise over the last decade from $20 to just on $100 per barrell where we are now. Extrapolate the trend and it'll be around $200 in ten years from now. Do some research on the oil fields in the middle east drying up this decade and I think we'll all be very fortunate indeed if oil is only $200 per barrell in ten years time.

[RedHotGT]

Originally Posted by Rodge

^^ You should have a look at a graph of the long term price of oil over the last ten years mate. Even if you choose to ignore the $147 price spike in the winter of 2008 and write it off as a speculators driven frenzy, there's been a fairly steady and gradual rise over the last decade from $20 to just on $100 per barrell where we are now. Extrapolate the trend and it'll be around $200 in ten years from now. Do some research on the oil fields in the middle east drying up this decade and I think we'll all be very fortunate indeed if oil is only $200 per barrell in ten years time.

Not sure if you would say that the price of oil per barrell has been a gradual rise over the last 10 years... $30 in 2003 to $100 in 2011 is a 230% increase... If we experience the same sort of 'steady and gradual rise' over the next 7 years, in 2018 it may be $330 a barrell!!

BUT - if that is the case - it won't be an isolated or local problem - but a global problem... best left up to those who (claim to) know better to work that out...

Also - let me put it another way - in terms that we all understand...
2003 was a long time ago - a different landscape to now...
I could have bought a XY GTHO P3 for $40-50k in 2003...
And if I sold it today - at $250k (which would be pretty much the Cheapest P3 around) it would be a 400% increase...

Unless you (not saying 'you' personally) can come up with a viable alternative to oil based production/fuel on a global scale... you can't really do more than get your garage ready for a large 1500kg paperweight that you can look at an remember the 'good ol days'...

[2011G6E]

If we could get yanks to heat thier houses with electric heaters and ducted systems like that instead of with those rediculous great oil-burning furnaces in thier basements (which they are, unbelievably, still fitting to houses now), then a lot less oil would be consumed and we wouldn't see the price spikes during the northern hemisphere winter like we do now...

[AC]

Originally Posted by EFFalcon

Helps thin the herd too.

What exactly do you mean by "thinning the herd" ?

[Windsor342ci]

Ive got a mate with the new Ford Fiesta Diesel. He loves it. Normal driving around town as low as 3.2 to the 100, thrashing it around the highest he said its hit is 3.7 to the 100.....

How can you complain about that??

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by CRYHSV

Ive got a mate with the new Ford Fiesta Diesel. He loves it. Normal driving around town as low as 3.2 to the 100, thrashing it around the highest he said its hit is 3.7 to the 100.....

How can you complain about that??

I would certainly consider one of these little gems if I was looking for super economical second car.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Rodge

^^ You should have a look at a graph of the long term price of oil over the last ten years mate. Even if you choose to ignore the $147 price spike in the winter of 2008 and write it off as a speculators driven frenzy, there's been a fairly steady and gradual rise over the last decade from $20 to just on $100 per barrell where we are now. Extrapolate the trend and it'll be around $200 in ten years from now. Do some research on the oil fields in the middle east drying up this decade and I think we'll all be very fortunate indeed if oil is only $200 per barrell in ten years time.

At the moment, the Tapis price is $118/barrel, so a hike to $147/barrel is not as bad as it seems
and if that happens, the West Texas Index will go up as well but still stay under the Tapis.

A lot of people mistakenly think Australian oil prices align with WTI but in fact we are governed by Tapis.

If oil prices go up, everything goes up including, cost of living, wages, tax paid and inflation rate..

[bobthebilda]

Future supply restrictions due to "peak oil" will mean higher prices over the next few years, but there will come a time when the government will intevene. History has shown that governments move to control products subject to supply restrictions, to ensure the distribution is equitable and not solely reliant on a persons wealth. You can expect that in years to come, the government will be issuing coupons to allow people to buy petrol. Each Adult will be given a coupon to buy 40 litres (or whatever formula they will work out), of petrol a week etc. It wont matter if your james packer or a 21 year old office worker driving a fiesta, you will both be getting the right to buy the same amount. The UK government is currently exploring the possibility of implementing some like this in the future.

On the subject of LPG being a saviour to a decrease in oil supply. Has anyone seen what powers the helicopters that fly out to the rigs that produce LPG, or what powers the trucks that deliver the LPG, or what powers the trucks that mine the iron ore that goes into making LPG fueled cars. Cheap oil allows for cheap LPG. A restricted supply of oil will result in restricted supplies of LPG and LPG powered products.

[Incontro]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

I'll install a system in my rig so it can run filtered used vege oil that i can get for free or ultra cheap.

Ill never buy a hybrid. Im not some brainwashed wowser greenie halfwit.

I would never buy a hybrid either,

but even worse, I would rather cease to exist than drive an ELECTRIC vehicle child's buggy.

[Rodge]

On the subject of LPG being a saviour to a decrease in oil supply. Has anyone seen what powers the helicopters that fly out to the rigs that produce LPG, or what powers the trucks that deliver the LPG, or what powers the trucks that mine the iron ore that goes into making LPG fueled cars. Cheap oil allows for cheap LPG. A restricted supply of oil will result in restricted supplies of LPG and LPG powered products.

That's quite correct BUT LPG is generally sold on very long term fixed price contracts at a wholesale level so a significant component of the actual cost of supply at a retail level is fixed.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Future supply restrictions due to "peak oil" will mean higher prices over the next few years, but there will come a time when the government will intevene. History has shown that governments move to control products subject to supply restrictions, to ensure the distribution is equitable and not solely reliant on a persons wealth. You can expect that in years to come, the government will be issuing coupons to allow people to buy petrol. Each Adult will be given a coupon to buy 40 litres (or whatever formula they will work out), of petrol a week etc. It wont matter if your james packer or a 21 year old office worker driving a fiesta, you will both be getting the right to buy the same amount. The UK government is currently exploring the possibility of implementing some like this in the future.

Peak oil is a myth because as the price per barrel goes higher,alternatives become cheaper.
At the moment, the bulk of our oil comes out of a pipe in the ground but as prices go higher,
the huge reserves of shale oil around the world become economically viable.

Australia alone has three huge reserves which rival some of Middle Easts oil reserves,
the US and Russia is loaded with the stuff...

On the subject of LPG being a saviour to a decrease in oil supply. Has anyone seen what powers the helicopters that fly out to the rigs that produce LPG, or what powers the trucks that deliver the LPG, or what powers the trucks that mine the iron ore that goes into making LPG fueled cars. Cheap oil allows for cheap LPG. A restricted supply of oil will result in restricted supplies of LPG and LPG powered products.

LPG can also be derived from coal seam gas and reforming of methane in to propane and butane..
It's a PITA but very possible and viable.

A lot of diesel buses are now switching to compressed natural gas as well, there are alternatives..

As said above Shale oil looms large as then next big supply of oil and fuel because
it easily separates into Naptha, the feed stock for aviation kero and ULP and the heavy ends left
can be used for bunkering ships and I also suspect, reformed into diesel.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Are they really going to be able to extract enough daily supply of oil in the shale rock systems in time for the massive fall-off in supply from the middle east later this decade ?

some experts say if it ran out today, there'd be enough shale oil for a 100 year supply.

[Bumbl3b33]

We are only at our "peak oil" when our demand outweighs our production. All BP, Shell or Exxon will do is drill for more to suppliment our current supply.

There is such a large demand for crude oil, big oil companies like BP invest heavily in exploration. They know where they will go set up the next oil well.

Buy a motorbike? I would not. Yes, they produce less CO2. However, they may be one of the worst polluters of carcinogens in the world. Not to mention the lack of car when you hit the tarmac.

[EFFalcon]

Originally Posted by AC

What exactly do you mean by "thinning the herd" ?

Bikes are dangerous when there are so many cars on the road.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by jpd80

As said above Shale oil looms large as then next big supply of oil and fuel because
it easily separates into Naptha, the feed stock for aviation kero and ULP and the heavy ends left
can be used for bunkering ships and I also suspect, reformed into diesel.

Fairly sure a lot of the newer ships don't use heavy fuel oil anymore?

[Rodge]

Is Oil Shale the answer to peak Oil ?
http://www.fossil.energy.gov/program.../40010-373.pdf

Heaps of technical info in there, fill your boots if you're interested.
Environmental challanges appear very serious.

[SteveJH]

As fossil fuel prices increase, other forms of energy production become more viable.

For example Nuclear power production can be used instead of coal or oil fired plants where insufficient geothermal energy can be found to use geothermal plants.

Wind turbines are annoying, and Solar takes up massive amounts of space for the amount of power it actually produces.

If power prices can be brought down through use of nuclear power, options for powering cars such as the use of Hydrogen/Oxygen instead of petrol become more viable.

To produce Hydrogen, all you need are water and electricity. Depending on the scale of machinery that becomes common, there is no reason that a "fuel station" could not produce the products onsite, or that a regional property (as long as it is connected to the national grid) could not do the same.