Holden Beats Ford in US Cop Car Shootout

[napmatt]

it will b good for our economy though.. more jobs etc.

[Polyal]

Bah just some more Drive/Holden propaganda to fill in a slow day...and again nothing really happening other than talk.

Even if GM was successful, are they really going to make any money on this sending cars from Oz? Every export program has been an economic failure (AFAIK) and now the dollar is higher..good luck with that.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Wheres the Mark Webber spirit gone?
Aussie beats Yank and you lot complain lol.

Holden should make Cop spec stripper Commies and Caprices.
They look cool.

The whole point is it didn't beat the yanks. The journalists just tried to make it look that way with the titles.

[jpd80]

And still, Holden remains silent on just how few Caprice PPV are actually being ordered by US Police Depts.
The new Taurus based PI Sedan and Explorer based Utility PI are not due until after Christmas while the
Crown Victoria sold near 6,000 units last month - not bad for a dying model...sad to say but perhaps
Ford probably sell more CVs in one month than Holden will sell Caprice PPVs in a single year...

[Polyal]

It just makes zero sense the US importing these cars...if our dollar was 50 cents to the US then fine, but not know, not even 3 years ago and definitely not any time soon.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Bah just some more Drive/Holden propaganda to fill in a slow day...and again nothing really happening other than talk.

Even if GM was successful, are they really going to make any money on this sending cars from Oz? Every export program has been an economic failure (AFAIK) and now the dollar is higher..good luck with that.

At least it's positive propaganda supporting Holden. Where's Fords positive propoaganda? No where to be seen.


As for making money. It should. It's supporting local jobs. Not just at Holden either. It's all the suppliers to the company, along with the community surrounding the manufacturing plant. So that can only be a good thing.

As for being an economic failure. Don't know where that comes from. Over the years Holden have been very successful with their export program. The main reason they stopped exporting, was due to the global economic downturn.

[stang65]

if thats so why havent they made a profit ? apart from the fake profit they made this year.

[ray38l]

Originally Posted by Polyal

It just makes zero sense the US importing these cars...if our dollar was 50 cents to the US then fine, but not know, not even 3 years ago and definitely not any time soon.

with such a big statement like that i guess you could tell me how much it costs to make each car?
Obviously you are much smarter then the holden executives that actually know the cost to make each car.

[Polyal]

Agreed talking is what Holden excels at.

If Holdens exports to the US where such a success why did they stop? You cant say the GFC because cars are still selling well in the US. The Caprice does not sell in large numbers yet is exported to other countries aswell, so those countries have to stock parts for bugger all cars..it doesnt add up.

There is a reason Holden had commodores running around "on special" with Pontiac front ends, and it wasnt because of their "roaring success" in the US.

Please tell me how it makes economical sense to send a car from here to there when they have cars there that can do the job, have parts there and therefore not rely on any fluctuations on price or availability.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Agreed talking is what Holden excels at.

If Holdens exports to the US where such a success why did they stop? You cant say the GFC because cars are still selling well in the US. The Caprice does not sell in large numbers yet is exported to other countries aswell, so those countries have to stock parts for bugger all cars..it doesnt add up.

There is a reason Holden had commodores running around "on special" with Pontiac front ends, and it wasnt because of their "roaring success" in the US.

Please tell me how it makes economical sense to send a car from here to there when they have cars there that can do the job, have parts there and therefore not rely on any fluctuations on price or availability.

They sold the car as a Pontiac. the once good performance division that had been reduced to Aztecs and front drive rental cars. Damaged brand.
If they had sold it as a Chevrolet with the Chevelle name or Impala SS, probably would have sold a lot more.

[Polyal]

You maybe be right MethodX but thats GM, shoulda coulda woulda.

http://fordforums.com.au/showpost.ph...&postcount=101

Holden Caprice = 147 per month, no wonder why they are looking at ways of upping the sales because it wont last another generation if nothing is done.

Ford may have been unpopular by canning the Fairlane but you have to pull the pin at some point.

[1TUFFUTE]

wow..seriously..theres people who think this thing will sell well in amerca...what a joke...whats the date is it april fools or something....not only does holden loose money hand over fist exporting...hence there minus profits for the last 100 oooyrs.....but that caprice was destroyed by the ford special models. Theres not a ope in hell theyl sell well...or thats some very poor choices made when considering your options. Dont forget its americans buying...not ford or holden loving aussies. Please what a joke of an article.

[ray38l]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Please tell me how it makes economical sense to send a car from here to there when they have cars there that can do the job, have parts there and therefore not rely on any fluctuations on price or availability.

no matter what product is exported from whatever country there will be fluctuations in price and availability. Perhaps ford oz shouldn't import any cars because they seem to be having problems getting cars to customers in a reasonable time.
By your theory every country should build cars purely for themselves because the same issues would be true for any car plant in any country.
There were more in depth reasons as to why the pontiac/commodore didn't work in the states and it was more to do with mistakes made by gm in the past. Doesn't mean the next attempt at sending cars over will fail.

[jpd80]

I would bet that Holden makes more money building and selling Cruze locally
than they will ever see back from the Caprice PPV program.

I'd respect Holden more if they just exported the Caprice and Buick Park Avenue models
to the USA as true luxury vehicles instead of chasing after police contracts...

[ltd]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

I surpose they could have used the boss powered Falcon Or alternatively the new V8 coming out Is it the Coyote????......

Now I'm straining my brain where those motors come from originally? Any guesses?

I think the suggestion was to put the F6 which owns the holden V8's and out performs them with a lighter front end over to the USA.
Now that engine comes from a little town know as Geelong. Maybe you've heard of it?

[ltd]

Originally Posted by ray38l

no matter what product is exported from whatever country there will be fluctuations in price and availability. Perhaps ford oz shouldn't import any cars because they seem to be having problems getting cars to customers in a reasonable time.
By your theory every country should build cars purely for themselves because the same issues would be true for any car plant in any country.
There were more in depth reasons as to why the pontiac/commodore didn't work in the states and it was more to do with mistakes made by gm in the past. Doesn't mean the next attempt at sending cars over will fail.

Mate, the USD is devalued against other major currencies so importing PPV's is not an option. America, with it's 14.4 trillion dollars of debt and over 10 percent unemployment is not going to shift thousands of auto worker jobs over seas to placate a dying LWB car from a subsidiary company that was separated from the parent right before it declared bankruptcy.
For a car that costs say 40 grand wholesale, this car will cost around 50 grand by the time it's landed thanks to freight, taxes and the unfavourable exchange rate. Previously, when the dollar was 65 cents, the same car would cost around 30 grand landed which becomes a proposition. No way are police forces around the USA going to spend an extra 20 grand for the same car, nor are the US government going to allow $14 billion annually to be exported for no reason nor value.
Face it, the car was a proposition before, now the exchange rate has killed any chance of it being built here and sold there.
The only way this car will succeed is if it's built in the USA which means Australians and Australian jobs won't get a thing.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Please tell me how it makes economical sense to send a car from here to there when they have cars there that can do the job, have parts there and therefore not rely on any fluctuations on price or availability.

they'll probably build them in usa or canada once it takes off.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by ray38l

no matter what product is exported from whatever country there will be fluctuations in price and availability. Perhaps ford oz shouldn't import any cars because they seem to be having problems getting cars to customers in a reasonable time.
By your theory every country should build cars purely for themselves because the same issues would be true for any car plant in any country.
There were more in depth reasons as to why the pontiac/commodore didn't work in the states and it was more to do with mistakes made by gm in the past. Doesn't mean the next attempt at sending cars over will fail.

Im aware of how imports/exports work thanks, the objective is to make money, otherwise whats the point?

As LTD said, the unions alone would be enough for this not to work. Americans would be pretty upset if they didnt use an american car just because one scored a tad higher than another.

We will probably never know, but the pricing of a Caprice vs a Taurus or even any other GM car over there is not going to work for Holden.

There is a reason why manufacturing is sent to cheaper countries, so you can actually attempt to make a decent profit off each unit. And if you are going to produce in a developed country then it will wear a premium price, something Gov's/fleets usually dont like very much.

Aussie Muscle, that could well very happen but it would be highly unlikely that GM would tool up for the same car in another country just for the police force, even though the potential numbers are good, its just that, potential.

[bobthebilda]

I think one just has to google "US Police cutbacks" and you'll see what the main factor will be in buying new police cars = price.

You'll come up with many, many web pages like the ones below

Cleveland to lay off 81 police, 51 firefighters‎

The police department has already suffered so many layoffs and cutbacks that Police ... and maybe their hearts aren't so much in the city as the rest of us. ...

Now, facing still more budget cuts, leaders of the department have come up ... Still, the mayor has yet to define what represents core services — police and ...

Holden arent making cars in Australia because it makes economic sense (you just have to look at the $500 price increase, and loss of alloy wheels, on the base model cruze when they went from importing to making locally. Exporting cars from Australia at the moment just doesnt make sense, thats why the big 3 are currently making less cars in Australia, than they were at the height of the GFC.

[OzJavelin]

Maybe Ford Australia should have submitted a V8 Fairlane/LTD for evaluation? Oh .. that's right we don't build V8 "Fords", nor Fairlane/LTDs anymore.

Good on Holden for having a go.

[EgoFG]

So Looking at road Warriors link above
why did the E85 version of the Caprice have worse steering, body lean, bounce, brake fade, brake pull and ABS than the non E85
Which it seems was identical in every way other than fuel ?

[ray38l]

Gm and holden are taking a gamble with what the exchange rate will do. Australia has a lot higher interest rates then almost every developed country. Once other countries start picking up and lifting interest rates the Australian dollar will drop quicker then a **** down a toilet. When that happens holden will already have a product on the ground over there and they will start making money on it. Its being pro active something that ford oz don't know anything about.

[Polyal]

There is a difference between being proactive and making sensible business decisions. Betting on when the exchange rate will become more favourable is not ideal...how long will they wait? The police force are not going to sit around waiting thats for sure.

Until something actually happens its all fluff, this is what Holden do, they talk future activity to insure people believe they are strong and successful.

It would be nice if FoA did it a little bit, FoA have been far more successful at global/international programs than GMH (indian feista, the ranger, now a car for china)...what have GMH done? Id rather be making good money off R&D than pushing poo up hill in exporting small numbers.

Ill happily eat my hat if GMH pull this off.

[EgoFG]

Also looking at raod warriers link - the Caprice was NOT the only straight 10

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by ray38l

Gm and holden are taking a gamble with what the exchange rate will do. Australia has a lot higher interest rates then almost every developed country. Once other countries start picking up and lifting interest rates the Australian dollar will drop quicker then a **** down a toilet. When that happens holden will already have a product on the ground over there and they will start making money on it. Its being pro active something that ford oz don't know anything about.

You actually think your going to see a global recovery, especially in the US, in the next five years?

The aussie dollar is only forecast to get stronger for the short-mid-term (3 or so yrs), which will be great news for my online shopping, but not so much for Australian manufacturing, which is dogged with ineffiencies (at least in global benchmarking) that has required the protection of our governments.

[ray38l]

^Once again how much does it cost to make the ppv? Everyone assumes they are not making money on it but no one knows the true cost. Yes there are things that make people assume they won't but unless you are high up at holden you don't know

[Dave_au]

Well they are selling it for $30k USD, or about $28k aussie, including shipment and fitout in Canada.

Shipment and Insurance will prob be about $2k, likewise the same for fitout so I would suggesting the margin after delivery would be around $22-24k AUD. I don't know whether Holden can produce a Caprice for that.

Good goauto article:

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...25781C0007D62F


Holden takes the long view for its US export law-enforcement Caprice



18 January 2011
By BYRON MATHIOUDAKIS
HOLDEN has revealed that its Chevrolet Caprice PPV Police Pursuit Vehicle may take years to establish itself as a law enforcement vehicle in the United States.

It will also not make quite as much money for GM Holden as originally planned when the export project was unveiled in 2009, thanks to an almost 20 per cent hike in the value of the Australian dollar against the US greenback.

The WM Caprice-based rear-wheel drive V8 sedan has already attracted thousands of enquiries in a market where law enforcement agencies typically buy between 60,000 and 70,000 vehicles annually, although neither Chevrolet nor Holden personnel would confirm the exact number of sales so far.

GM Holden chairman and managing director Mike Devereux told GoAuto Media at a Caprice PPV demonstration day in Phoenix, Arizona last week he was confident of selling “thousands and thousands” of them.

However, he said it was a long process winning over large forces like NYPD, LAPD and California State Patrol, so GM was working on the smaller fleets, many of which have seven vehicles or less.

“It’s not easy to get the big departments to flip a big fleet of cars over from the older types of police vehicles they run, so we figured it is better to get some of the smaller guys to try one and spread the word,” said Mr Devereux.

“And we’ll certainly make less money. In ’09 when we launched the program, the Aussie dollar was at about $US0.82 – now it’s at $US1.00.

“That’s one of the reasons why you can’t base your business on exports – you ride the curves of the currency – and so you can’t have the basis of your business require you to have that volume, so we have tried to make the smart decisions – like Mark Reuss did – to have the company live on its own means in Australia.

“Are we going to make the same sort of money we thought we were going to make from the start? No way. We can’t.

“But we take a seven, eight, nine or ten-year view on this, and the Aussie dollar will again have an eight in front of it in the future – and that’s probably the long-term sweet-spot for us with the Aussie dollar.

“We’re not at a loss here – but we’re not making as much, either.”

Caprice PPV deliveries will commence in April this year, with fully prepared cars (by long-time Canadian aftermarket vehicle contractors Kerr Industries) ready to hit the streets from June. Only patrol and detective models will be offered, and not to the public.

Most of the 18,000-strong law enforcement agencies will be exposed to the Caprice PPV on its current national multi-date demonstration tour across the US.

While some of these organisations purchase tens or perhaps hundreds of vehicles at a time, most departments are likely to initially buy at best a small number of Caprice PPVs in order to evaluate their effectiveness.

A GM insider said that only after word has spread about how good the Holden is will the larger orders begin to come through.

Some agencies are also thought to be holding out for the Caprice PPV V6, which will be slightly cheaper, more economical, and therefore more environmentally responsible.

At $30,995 in the US, the Australian import is up to 10 per cent more expensive than its rivals from Ford (Crown Victoria, which goes out of production in August) and Dodge (Charger).

The global financial crisis hit law enforcement agencies hard, with severe cutbacks across the US, so Chevrolet may have its hands full convincing many departments to hand over the extra cash for a Caprice PPV.

Ford will modify its new Taurus sedan and Explorer SUV to take on GM, which currently offers the widest selection of law enforcement vehicle models in the USA (front-drive Impala sedan, Tahoe SUV, Express Van and now Caprice PPV).

Ford has dominated sales to law enforcement agencies for more than a decade with the Crown Victoria, which is based on a 1979 design but is the only full-frame rear-wheel-drive passenger car available in the US. Last year it sold more than 33,000 ‘Crown Vics’ (including taxis).

Meanwhile, the members of the Arizona police department assembled in Phoenix to drive the latest Chevrolet PPV were almost entirely unanimous in their praise for the ‘Police Caprice’.

Among the most common comments pertained to the Holden’s steering and handling, V8 performance, emergency brake response and high-speed manoeuvrability, rated as class-leading.

However, concerns include the Caprice PPV’s high initial asking price (GM says some discounting will occur), adaptability of costly aftermarket radio and communications equipment already fitted to their existing fleet (despite assurances of almost complete harmonisation) and spare parts availability from Australia (Chevrolet insists all spares are already housed in warehouses throughout the US).

One officer doubted the amount of space available in the Caprice PPV centre console, even though an offset transmission lever is fitted for patrol duty vehicles, while a few disliked the Holden’s stylistic similarity to the Impala from behind.

“Acceleration is fantastic – I like the way it stays in gear when you need it to,” said Danny from Tempe. “There’s no wiggle from the tail, either. This is head and shoulders above the Impala.”

“Superior in every way compared to the Crown Vic,” said Patrol Commander Andrew. “It seems it was designed for what we do from the start, making it the most complete package as a police car. We didn’t really expect it to be this good.

“Back in the 1990s GM came out with the front-drive PPV and it failed miserably. This time GM’s answered the call. It’s almost like they’re thinking like a cop!”

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by ray38l

Gm and holden are taking a gamble with what the exchange rate will do. Australia has a lot higher interest rates then almost every developed country. Once other countries start picking up and lifting interest rates the Australian dollar will drop quicker then a **** down a toilet. When that happens holden will already have a product on the ground over there and they will start making money on it. Its being pro active something that ford oz don't know anything about.

You got it half right, Holdens business plan for quite a few years has been a gamble, and its the Australian Taxpayer that often has to bail them out of their failed gambling.

Higher interest rates tend to be a result of a strong economy, australian rates are high by some standards, but not compared to the likes of china and india etc
Australia 4.75%
China 6.06%
Hong Kong 0.5%
India 7.25%
Japan 0.1%
Korea, Republic of 3%

The Police car is only being exported to the US, so the only relevance of the aussie dollar is its rate of exchange to the US dollar. With US government very close to defaulting on its existing borrowings, i dont think there are many people out their who think the US dollar has a very bright future.

[ray38l]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

You actually think your going to see a global recovery, especially in the US, in the next five years?

The aussie dollar is only forecast to get stronger for the short-mid-term (3 or so yrs), which will be great news for my online shopping, but not so much for Australian manufacturing, which is dogged with ineffiencies (at least in global benchmarking) that has required the protection of our governments.

So who is saying the Australian dollar will stay high for that long?
Is it the same people who had no idea that the gfc was coming? Or was it the same people which predicted it and still did nothing?
America doesn't have to have a recovery for the Australian dollar to drop. All it takes is for another country to pick up to the point that people would rather invest in there money then ours.
I love the Australian dollar being high. I have booked a holiday to the states that i wouldn't be able to afford with the dollar low. But the Australian dollar is artificially high atm and it won't last.

[Dave_au]

There is more to the dollar than just interest rates - the recent trend in the value of the Aussie dollar is reflective of the demand for resources and overseas investment in Australia, and the lack of downward volatility which encourages its use as a hedging currency.

See:
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/...cument&src=sph