The ultimate question

[Mickxr8]

ok. fess up. who`s the poo*(oops) that voted for hsv ?.

[rich]

Who hopes they don't get day time running lights? On Audi's they were just ok, on hsv's there have become a joke. Everytime I see a new hsv approaching I shudder at how ugly that car has become. The superchared 8 should be quicker than the F6, but I hope the F6 can stay on top, to support the aussie underdog.

[4Vman]

The next ultimate question is what will happen to the F6 if the GT ticks all the boxes so to speak....
We know the F6 will remain unchanged with the euro 4 update/coyote launch.

[The Monty]

For those saying the GT will be quicker, remember that there is acouple of F6's running 12.3's dead stock. Sock tyres, stock everything. So to run faster, they will be dipping almost into the 11's. I really cant see that happening anytime in the next 5 years.
To those saying by more than .5 of a second, that means they will have to be running 11.8's or better. Sorry, but no.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by The Monty

For those saying the GT will be quicker, remember that there is acouple of F6's running 12.3's dead stock. Sock tyres, stock everything. So to run faster, they will be dipping almost into the 11's. I really cant see that happening anytime in the next 5 years.
To those saying by more than .5 of a second, that means they will have to be running 11.8's or better. Sorry, but no.

I'd like to see how the old Futura goes with sock tyres... :P

The 12.3 was without a filter?

We need to also remember the differences in timing methods of the track and the press.

What is the quickest press published F6 0-400 time? I don't think it has dipped into the 12's.

[geckoGT]

Personally I do not see Ford and FPV allowing the GT to be too much quicker than it is now, especially not considerably quicker than the current F6.

To allow it to be 0.5 sec faster than the current F6 would probably really test the publics perception of what is allowable for performance in family car (at the end of the day it is a 4 door falcon). It would also set a very high performance target for the future GT-H (if it is in the future), one that is unlikely to be achieved.

There seems to be grounds for suspicion that the present F6 exceeds 310 kw, I have heard estimations up to about 340 kw and the times suggest that this may be the case when compared with the 315 GT. With this thought in mind, I am going to suggest the FGII F6 vs GT will be too close to call and GT-H (if it happens) will be 0.5 seconds faster than the GT/F6 pair.

Lets also not forget that FPV are not going to release this new motor putting out it's absolute potential, they will hold some back for future power increases on new models.

[The Monty]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

I'd like to see how the old Futura goes with sock tyres... :P

The 12.3 was without a filter?

We need to also remember the differences in timing methods of the track and the press.

What is the quickest press published F6 0-400 time? I don't think it has dipped into the 12's.

One without a filter, one with an XR8 airbox (I think) and one was dead stock.

[castellan]

I couldn't care less about 1/4 mile times. it's the time over the KM that the real test.
But i hope this new V8 is as good as it's been made out to be.
The only reason i have liked and supported the turbo 6 over the V8 is because it was lighter then that big disgustingly heavy piece of s--t V8.
Turbo's are good but ya get sick of driving them.
Nothing beats driving a good V8. :

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by The Monty

For those saying the GT will be quicker, remember that there is acouple of F6's running 12.3's dead stock. Sock tyres, stock everything. So to run faster, they will be dipping almost into the 11's. I really cant see that happening anytime in the next 5 years.
To those saying by more than .5 of a second, that means they will have to be running 11.8's or better. Sorry, but no.

In magazine or "real world" conditions the F6 is a low to mid 13 second car.....
People seem to forget the times achieved at the strip are greatly aided but sticky track conditions, tyre pressures, weight minimisation and launch techniques...
In magazine hands were taking flat/low 13's, or maybe high 12's for the GT to be significantly "quicker" apples V apples.....

The simple facts are the coyote engine weighs the same as the I6T, sits lower and further back in the bay for better weight distribution that the I6T, has 25% more capacity than the I6T and has Forced induction like the I6T, so even blind freddy can see where this is heading...

[lostdude]

i'm just glad i fit in the normal sized human category

[turbo_man]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Personally I do not see Ford and FPV allowing the GT to be too much quicker than it is now, especially not considerably quicker than the current F6.

To allow it to be 0.5 sec faster than the current F6 would probably really test the publics perception of what is allowable for performance in family car (at the end of the day it is a 4 door falcon).

how can anyone think that today? sure in the 70's the HO's were the fastest thing on roads but today how can they even think they're getting too fast when there are M5's and RS6's running around with 0-100 times in the low 4's and drag times in the 12's (and these are just based on a regular 5-series and A6)

[mik]

power delivery will be different, will tyres be the same? the current fg 315 1/4 = 13.6 no slouch by any means, the new banger, a little less weight? prediction = 12.9 or flat 13.0 , should be close to f6 i reckon.

[Bent8]

Too early to tell...

A supercharged Coyote will be making some serious torque off idle so the only deciding factor on how fast it will be is traction and gear ratios.

In my opinion, the new GT's will finally be fast as the Turbo's and dare I say it, will sway many Turbo's owners over to the V8 brigade!

[The Monty]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

In magazine or "real world" conditions the F6 is a low to mid 13 second car.....
People seem to forget the times achieved at the strip are greatly aided but sticky track conditions, tyre pressures, weight minimisation and launch techniques...
In magazine hands were taking flat/low 13's, or maybe high 12's for the GT to be significantly "quicker" apples V apples.....

The simple facts are the coyote engine weighs the same as the I6T, sits lower and further back in the bay for better weight distribution that the I6T, has 25% more capacity than the I6T and has Forced induction like the I6T, so even blind freddy can see where this is heading...

Ok then, in your REAL WORLD predictions, the magazines get 13.2's to 13.0's. That means that the new Coyote will have to do 12.8's to 12.5's with the MAGAZINE people driving in this said REAL WORLD.
Take one to the track, and the F6 still does 12.3, so the coyote if all things being equal, which up until this point of my view it is, it will still have to go 11.8 to be .5 of a second quicker.

It doesnt matter if we quote times the magazines get, or the times we get, the fact is, the F6 in magazines do 13.0, so by everyones calculations, the coyote will have to do a 12.5 with a magazine driver. It would be great if it does, but I think everyone needs to get a grip and realise that is not going to happen.

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by The Monty

For those saying the GT will be quicker, remember that there is acouple of F6's running 12.3's dead stock. Sock tyres, stock everything. So to run faster, they will be dipping almost into the 11's. I really cant see that happening anytime in the next 5 years.
To those saying by more than .5 of a second, that means they will have to be running 11.8's or better. Sorry, but no.

Your making a BIG assumption there, when nobody has even set an eyelid on a Coyote from Ford/FPV Aus yet.

[The Monty]

Ill eat my words if it can run into the 11's, or run 12.5's in the hand of a magazine. I would LOVE for it to run that, but in reality, it just wont happen. dont get me wrong though, there would be nothing better than having a line up with two 12 second cars, or high 11 cars, it really blows my mind, but I just cant get my head around it happening.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by The Monty

Ill eat my words if it can run into the 11's, or run 12.5's in the hand of a magazine. I would LOVE for it to run that, but in reality, it just wont happen. dont get me wrong though, there would be nothing better than having a line up with two 12 second cars, or high 11 cars, it really blows my mind, but I just cant get my head around it happening.

The mags arent regularly getting 12's from a F6, they're consistantly getting mid 13's so a flat 13, high 12 from the mags would be a good result for the GT, that's the 0.5 sec we're talking about.
What people get from it from the strip is largely irrelevant because we dont drive our cars in that state on our roads....

This really is a no brainer, the ONLY reason the new GT wont be a fair bit quicker is if FPV deliberatly hold it back.
With everything else being more or less equal the extra 25% capacity offers more, simple as that.

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by The Monty

Ill eat my words if it can run into the 11's, or run 12.5's in the hand of a magazine. I would LOVE for it to run that, but in reality, it just wont happen. dont get me wrong though, there would be nothing better than having a line up with two 12 second cars, or high 11 cars, it really blows my mind, but I just cant get my head around it happening.

I think you will be eating your word's then,

[The Monty]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The mags arent regularly getting 12's from a F6, they're consistantly getting mid 13's so a flat 13, high 12 from the mags would be a good result for the GT, that's the 0.5 sec we're talking about.
What people get from it from the strip is largely irrelevant because we dont drive our cars in that state on our roads....

This really is a no brainer, the ONLY reason the new GT wont be a fair bit quicker is if FPV deliberatly hold it back.
With everything else being more or less equal the extra 25% capacity offers more, simple as that.

Explain to me where even once I said an F6 ran a 12 driven by a magazine guru?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The mags arent regularly getting 12's from a F6, they're consistantly getting mid 13's so a flat 13, high 12 from the mags would be a good result for the GT, that's the 0.5 sec we're talking about.
What people get from it from the strip is largely irrelevant because we dont drive our cars in that state on our roads....

This really is a no brainer, the ONLY reason the new GT wont be a fair bit quicker is if FPV deliberatly hold it back.
With everything else being more or less equal the extra 25% capacity offers more, simple as that.

You, of all people, know that a belt driven supercharged engine and a turbocharged engine demonstrate completely different torque curves.
The SC MP is positive from almost idle and increases with RPM until max torque whereas although the TC comes in later (1800+/-) it demonstrates max torque almost as soon as it goes positive.

So it is not that simple at all really.

[The Monty]

Meh, I give up. You guys are right, magazines will run 12.5's in it, and people will see 11's down the 1/4 mile, stock. Youd want to hope they sort the rubber on the things out fast.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flappist

You, of all people, know that a belt driven supercharged engine and a turbocharged engine demonstrate completely different torque curves.
The SC MP is positive from almost idle and increases with RPM until max torque whereas although the TC comes in later (1800+/-) it demonstrates max torque almost as soon as it goes positive.

So it is not that simple at all really.

Yep without doubt there will be differences in the way a S/C and Turbo create power, its an old ageless debate with pros and cons on both sides however these differences will be less pronounced in a mainstreem production environment and there has been a big improvement in S/C technology...

I think both methods will achieve similar results when ADR compliant, which is what 99% of us will use...

[glavas]

well i just hope the v8 rains supreme. its pretty shameful having a 6 banga as a flagship.


i voted for HSV!!!!

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by The Monty

Ok then, in your REAL WORLD predictions, the magazines get 13.2's to 13.0's. That means that the new Coyote will have to do 12.8's to 12.5's with the MAGAZINE people driving in this said REAL WORLD.
Take one to the track, and the F6 still does 12.3, so the coyote if all things being equal, which up until this point of my view it is, it will still have to go 11.8 to be .5 of a second quicker.

It doesnt matter if we quote times the magazines get, or the times we get, the fact is, the F6 in magazines do 13.0, so by everyones calculations, the coyote will have to do a 12.5 with a magazine driver. It would be great if it does, but I think everyone needs to get a grip and realise that is not going to happen.

That's the point we're making, you put it well and there's no argument over this; Consistency in the two methods of testing.

I also see we're you're coming from; to be 0.5 second quicker would mean there's a substantial difference in power over the F6. At this level you can't gain 1/2 a second without a serious power hike.

Also, assuming there's a new, better tyre used across the whole range at time of Miami's launch they will need to test the (newly tyred) F6 with it to gain a fair comparison. Apples for apples. Old F6 would become invalid.

(Basing it off press tests) I'll have a guess and say both entry level FPV V8 (XR8/GS/whatever) and the GT would be neck and neck to 100km/h, 4.9 seconds. To 400 metres the GT will crack it in 12.7 (+/-0.05), two tenths ahead of the cheaper V8 model.

It's for this reason I can't vote as that would be less than the "smash it by over 0.5 seconds", but a fair bit more than a "a tiny bit quicker".

[flappist]

You guys do all realise that the voting is set to public so everyone can see who voted what don't you?

[pottery beige]

I'm not even going to bother voting... When the flag drop's the **************** stop's......

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by flappist

You guys do all realise that the voting is set to public so everyone can see who voted what don't you?

And I wonder if those voting realise this too Can't believe that with the development of Coyote many are still banking on HSV to be the better deal. Have a bit of faith as all indications is that this will be the hero car .... too much depends on it .... FPV's future for one



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[XR8putts]

Originally Posted by flappist

normal sized human (80-100kg).

The GT has to be faster, and I'm sure it will be. But could you imagine the AFF fall-out if it wasn't..

[Bundy]

can anyone recall the times set by jamie and craig down the 1/4 at willowbank a couple of years ago , think it was winternats, in the Ford triple 8 supercars back then?

jamie won both times if I remember correctly

[XR8putts]

Originally Posted by bundy

can anyone recall the times set by jamie and craig down the 1/4 at willowbank a couple of years ago , think it was winternats, in the Ford triple 8 supercars back then?

jamie won both times if I remember correctly

Just curious what that has to do with anything?

Also, the cars were running a (circuit) race set-up, meaning diff ratios, gear ratios, ride height/suspension etc. The V8Supercars could've gone alot faster if they wanted to..