HSV to cop 7 litre LS7 power

[MITCHAY]

Ah the GTS. One of my fav cars. Would be interesting if this does eventuate all though I would never be able to afford one.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by HSE2

So if true that would mean that this supposed gentlemen’s agreement is in some bother?

Me thinks it might mark the return of the GTS as well, again if true.

$125k is a pretty good price for a product involving that engine.

You think so?! $50k for 75kW+-?

If I was going to fork out that sort of money for a car, it wouldn't be a Holden or a Ford.

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by Rodp

You think so?! $50k for 75kW+-?

If I was going to fork out that sort of money for a car, it wouldn't be a Holden or a Ford.

money would be going towards something with euro qualities.... M3 :

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by Rodp

You think so?! $50k for 75kW+-?

If I was going to fork out that sort of money for a car, it wouldn't be a Holden or a Ford.

And many people will think like you and in some cases it will be a rehash of the XR6T v F6 debate. One would have to assume this car would carry the largest brakes offered on a HSV product as well as other incentives. Value is mostly in the eye of the beholder.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

money would be going towards something with euro qualities.... M3 :

In theory If this hypothetical vehicle is going to make the type of power as claimed you'd assume it will have similar brakes and suspension to cope/compliment.
If thats the case its either going to be outstanding value @ 125K or its price will be substancially higher id suggest...
If its the later if falls into the clutches of some serious Euro Weapons.... Most of who'm will have substantially better pedigree than what's essentially just a "hotted up" commodore..

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by HSE2

And many people will think like you and in some cases it will be a rehash of the XR6T v F6 debate. One would have to assume this car would carry the largest brakes offered on a HSV product as well as other incentives. Value is mostly in the eye of the beholder.

Sure, but the F6 is still reasonably priced and I can see the cost vs benefit of buying an F6 over an XR6T. The fact is I could buy 2 F6's and still have change than if I was to fork over $125k for the HSV.

But you're not really paying that $50k extra for the 75kW, you're paying for the fact that it's a limited edition. That's fine. I just don't agree with your point that $125k is a good price for a vehicle with that donk.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Sure, but the F6 is still reasonably priced and I can see the cost vs benefit of buying an F6 over an XR6T. The fact is I could buy 2 F6's and still have change than if I was to fork over $125k for the HSV.

But you're not really paying that $50k extra for the 75kW, you're paying for the fact that it's a limited edition. That's fine. I just don't agree with your point that $125k is a good price for a vehicle with that donk.

Try buying 373kws and over 600nm for less and have it retain factory warranty. That's my point and for this level it comes back to being reasonable. To get the same power especially in a coupe you are looking at double. It’s not a good price, it’s a sensational price but I tend to think 4vman has a point. That engine is very expensive and IF it gets to the public for that sort of money including the enhancements that would have to be made to this current chassis it’s nothing short of a major miracle.
The old GTS coupe was about the 100k mark so we are looking at an increase of 25k for the same sort of car that will most likely be of a higher specification. If it comes in at that money with the sort of commitment that sort of power should bring that’s a pretty good achievement provided the dealerships don’t do their usual trick and bastardise the whole shooting match.

[nang3]

for $125k there are a lot more cars i would choose over a monaro on roids, no matter how well it would go;

GT-P fully optioned plus mods
Typhoon " ditto "
XR6T + $85k of boost ing_sm
Merc CLK-500
Merc CLS 350 (black with 19"fr, 20"rears *drool* )
Merc E350
BMW M3
BMW 540 E60

I would choose any of these over a $125K monaro even if the performance is comparatively lacking..

[Brute6]

If they are thinking of throwing yet another Vette donk into a Holden, I don't understand why they don't just import the whole bloody car? They're (mainly Holden) are good at grabbing a car from some other market and throwing "their" badge on it....?

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by Brute6

If they are thinking of throwing yet another Vette donk into a Holden, I don't understand why they don't just import the whole bloody car? They're (mainly Holden) are good at grabbing a car from some other market and throwing "their" badge on it....?

I could be wrong with this one but its cost would be one issue. To get the LS7 engine in the vette would see the introduction of the ZO6 in 2006 guise and I believe that car cost about $65000 USD or about 20 USD above the 6 litre version. If the Mustang costs high 20s to low thirties and that equals about 80k AUD that car, ZO6, here would cost the high side of 160k before conversion, roughly speaking.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Cobra

When? Motor said the C63 AMG was coming out. Would be a shame if it doesn't. It is such a beast.

Was in Drive about 2 months back and in GoAuto. That was from the head of AMG, they really struggle to make any profit on the C Class AMG's and they aren't going to bother building anymore. The high cost of the new 6.3 may have something to do with this as it will be a pricey engine as its a ground up AMG engine, not just an upgraded Merc engine.

[XR Martin]

C63 will be available, but only on custom order apparently, and unlikely in RHD.

[chief]

I look at this with some relife because Ford can make its power from he technology in the engine and HSV just uses a much larger engine for their power. $125k for a HSV, I dont think so, but there are some die hard HSV fans out there so they might sell. Either way it doesn't bother me.

Just my 2c worth.

[marcosambrose]

Still one problem underlies the car, its australian, and therefore its not european, therefore its not the silky built car that you would expect for $125k.

I would buy a porsche instead, at least its the badge.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by marcosambrose

Still one problem underlies the car, its australian, and therefore its not european, therefore its not the silky built car that you would expect for $125k.

I would buy a porsche instead, at least its the badge.

What Porsche can you buy for $125,000?

A Porsche Boxster. Base model. $113,390. 2.7litre Flat-6, 176kW 270Nm. 100km/h in 6.2 sec and 250km/h top whack. So its slower then an XR6 Turbo, XR8, SS, SV8 etc... and costs almost as much as a 377kW GTS would. Plus its only got two seats, not much luggage space etc.

I love Porsche to bits, but from a value standpoint, if they make a LS7 powered GTS, it will be impossible to beat.

[Des]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Lets see. Corvette Z06 - 505hp 485ftlbs (377kW 657Nm).

Holden/HSV openly said that the VT-VZ body/chassis was over its limit with anything more then 300kW.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think there was any plans to build a VE coupe? Then they'd need to use the old chassis and, as stated above, this chassis will be well and truly overpowered. Can you see HSV spending a considerable investment in strenthening the existing (allready outdated) chassis?
Okay, they (HSV) may bring out a LS7 powered VE, but this would then have to be a sedan, as utes and wagons will not be updated straight away either.
Wouldn't it then be safe to say that an LS7 powered Monaro (read: coupe) just isn't going to happen any time in the near future?

[EA2BA]

correct, they retired the monaro while sales where at least semi decent, with no plans for a new one to be built at all, as best I know, this is still true.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by Steffo

What Porsche can you buy for $125,000?

Well a Boxster S is only slightly more than $125K - At $132,500 brand new.

For that you get a 3.2-litre boxer engine develops 206kW/ 320Nm, 0-100 in 5.5 secs, returning fuel consumption 11L/100km and it has been roundly praised for being one of the best handling cars money can buy.

Still a bit hard to compare a 7L coupe to a small convertible Porshe. In short the HSV would have its own niche market.

Originally Posted by Steffo

100km/h in 6.2 sec and 250km/h top whack. So its slower then an XR6 Turbo, XR8, SS, SV8 etc...
.

Only in a dead straight line.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by merlin

Still a bit hard to compare a 7L coupe to a small convertible Porshe. In short the HSV would have its own niche market.

The HSV would eat into the M5/E55/RS6 market, just as the VTII GTS300 was meant to in 2000. It was faster then the E39 M5, which was until that point, the fastest four-door in the world. If they make one with an LS7, you get E55/M5/RS6 performance for $100,000 less.

Same scenario the $65,800 Corvette Z06 is making in the USA. It's as fast as a $130k Ford GT, as fast as a far more expensive Ferrari F430, as fast as a Porsche 911 Turbo etc...

[merlin]

Originally Posted by Steffo

The HSV would eat into the M5/E55/RS6 market, just as the VTII GTS300 was meant to in 2000. It was faster then the E39 M5, which was until that point, the fastest four-door in the world. If they make one with an LS7, you get E55/M5/RS6 performance for $100,000 less.

Same scenario the $65,800 Corvette Z06 is making in the USA. It's as fast as a $130k Ford GT, as fast as a far more expensive Ferrari F430, as fast as a Porsche 911 Turbo etc...

I disagree there. If you have enough money to buy an , 911 M5, RS6 ect. then your not going to cross shop for a $125K HSV, you probably wouldnt be seen dead in a HSV.

I think the market is current HSV owners seeing it as an upgrade. For whatever reason they are cashed up and will only ever buy Holden/HSV's, or Fords/FPV's. I know plenty of people like that, and from all accounts half of these yet to be confirmed LS7 coupes already have deposits down from current HSV owners.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by merlin

I disagree there. If you have enough money to buy an , 911 M5, RS6 ect. then your not going to cross shop for a $125K HSV, you probably wouldnt be seen dead in a HSV.

I think the market is current HSV owners seeing it as an upgrade. For whatever reason they are cashed up and will only ever buy Holden/HSV's, or Fords/FPV's. I know plenty of people like that, and from all accounts half of these yet to be confirmed LS7 coupes already have deposits down from current HSV owners.

Yes, as you point out there's far more to a large top end performance sedan/saloon, which is what were talking about, (Porsche's are a different kettle of fish IMO) than the sum of its performance numbers when you're shopping in the 150K+ market.

I say 150K + because of my reservations about what this "hypothetical HSV" might end up costing..
People with this kind of coin to spend have traditionaly looked for luxury, refinement, pedigree and sophistication just as much as outright performance, why else do you think all the M and AMG cars look understated compared to the "boy racer" look of the HSV/FPV counterparts and contain extremely high levels of fitout quality?
Look at how well appointed these M/AMG cars are, more-so than even a Fairmont Ghia or Calais.

The AMG and M cars have been slowely developed and refined over a long period of time, what you get from them today is a result of what they started to achieve decades ago.

Id suggest such a car from HSV wouldn't attain anywhere near those kinds of levels of pedigree, (in a brand new chassis non the less), in 5 years, let alone overnight, especially with this kind of quantum leap in performance...

This kind of HSV would only appeal to people with a "VB beer" taste and a "Grange hermitage" budget... possibly a new strange "cross bred" market??

To date HSV and FPV have both baulked at it after a few goes, im not sure much has changed 12 months on..

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by merlin

I disagree there. If you have enough money to buy an , 911 M5, RS6 ect. then your not going to cross shop for a $125K HSV, you probably wouldnt be seen dead in a HSV.

I think the market is current HSV owners seeing it as an upgrade. For whatever reason they are cashed up and will only ever buy Holden/HSV's, or Fords/FPV's. I know plenty of people like that, and from all accounts half of these yet to be confirmed LS7 coupes already have deposits down from current HSV owners.

Where does this idea that people with alot of money wouldn't be seen dead in HSVs/FPVs come from? In alot of cases, people buy these vehicles to daily drive, and have some other super expensive weekend car. My uncle, for example, recently bought a VZ Maloo to daily drive, and has the Ferrari F355 Berlinetta. And he's definitley not the only person like that.

I'm willing to bet that the car could steal quite a few M5/E55/RS6 buyers, offering what they offer for $100k less. Just because you're rich doesn't mean you're going to overlook a car offering such extreme value for money. Case point is the Corvette Z06 in the US. People said crap like "Oh, Porsche buyers would never be seen dead in a Chevy," and they were and/or are... well, wrong.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Where does this idea that people with alot of money wouldn't be seen dead in HSVs/FPVs come from? In alot of cases, people buy these vehicles to daily drive, and have some other super expensive weekend car. My uncle, for example, recently bought a VZ Maloo to daily drive, and has the Ferrari F355 Berlinetta. And he's definitley not the only person like that.

I'm willing to bet that the car could steal quite a few M5/E55/RS6 buyers, offering what they offer for $100k less. Just because you're rich doesn't mean you're going to overlook a car offering such extreme value for money. Case point is the Corvette Z06 in the US. People said crap like "Oh, Porsche buyers would never be seen dead in a Chevy," and they were and/or are... well, wrong.

Steffo, ive got a number of friends with expensive euro cars: GT3 porsche, 911 Turbo, M3, E55, C32 etc and NONE of them would ever consider buying a HSV or FPV vehicle, in their minds "it doesn't suit their image or level of refinement". Im not suggesting all euro car owners feel the same way but the ones i do think this way :eclipsee_

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Steffo, ive got a number of friends with expensive euro cars: GT3 porsche, 911 Turbo, M3, E55, C35 etc and NONE of them would ever consider buying a HSV or FPV vehicle, in their minds "it doesn't suit their image or level of refinement". Im not suggesting all euro car owners feel the same way but the ones i do think this way :eclipsee_

Right, but there are lots of different people out there. When the first GTS300 came out in '00, there were people who were otherwise going to buy an M5 or something buying those things, childhood love of Holdens, finally new fast good one etc etc. I have no doubt that would happen again, especially if they raised the bar to the Euro's current level.

There are plenty of people who'd buy the more expensive German car without thinking twice though, no doubts there.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Right, but there are lots of different people out there. When the first GTS300 came out in '00, there were people who were otherwise going to buy an M5 or something buying those things, childhood love of Holdens, finally new fast good one etc etc. I have no doubt that would happen again, especially if they raised the bar to the Euro's current level.

There are plenty of people who'd buy the more expensive German car without thinking twice though, no doubts there.

Possibly.. im not too sure those who have actually lived with a GTS300 would choose it again over an AMG/M series car unless money was a factor though?
An M5 is a hell of a better car appointment wise and refinement wise than the "coarse" GTS.
In many ways they're aimed at different buyer segments defined by price, which is why a HSV (or FPV) would struggle to sell IMO if it was priced against the more expensive options.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Possibly.. im not too sure those who have actually lived with a GTS300 would choose it again over an AMG/M series car unless money was a factor though?
An M5 is a hell of a better car appointment wise and refinement wise than the "coarse" GTS.
In many ways they're aimed at different buyer segments defined by price, which is why a HSV (or FPV) would struggle to sell IMO if it was priced against the more expensive options.

Very good point.

The other thing I could see happen with an HSV and/or FPV in that price/performance bracket is opening up a vehicle to buyers with 100-150k to spend who want an M5/E55/RS6 type car...

No matter what, it would be very low volume. HSV *might* do something like that, but I doubt FPV would. Tickford/FPV never did strike me as the kind of folks to make a super expensive ultra low production run car for bragging rights...

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Very good point.

The other thing I could see happen with an HSV and/or FPV in that price/performance bracket is opening up a vehicle to buyers with 100-150k to spend who want an M5/E55/RS6 type car...

No matter what, it would be very low volume. HSV *might* do something like that, but I doubt FPV would. Tickford/FPV never did strike me as the kind of folks to make a super expensive ultra low production run car for bragging rights...

Exactly, the messages coming from FPV seem clear, they're after volume sales to the kind of buyers who look deeper than just performance figures alone, who look for a total package, and they'll forge ahead with this philosophy and direction regardless of critisism from a few who need "numbers bragging rights"..
Market research should tell them if the 100-150K segment will sustain a hot Holden or Ford over the cheaper euro options, i just feel a sence of DeJaVu though....

[OzJavelin]

While we are O/T regarding GTS300s .. I've always wondered what HSV would do with a "dead" one they needed to replace and engine in under warranty? AFAIK *ALL* GenIIIs are basically the same between model years, except for intake/exhaust, etc .. eg. my 235kw VY1 SV8 same engine as 225kw VY1 Berlina, same as 260kw Clubsport, etc. However the 300kw GTS was a Callaway-built engine .. Holden/HSV couldn't do their normal warranty claim junk of a GEM-built replacement (like I got with mine)??????

Rod.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

While we are O/T regarding GTS300s .. I've always wondered what HSV would do with a "dead" one they needed to replace and engine in under warranty? AFAIK *ALL* GenIIIs are basically the same between model years, except for intake/exhaust, etc .. eg. my 235kw VY1 SV8 same engine as 225kw VY1 Berlina, same as 260kw Clubsport, etc. However the 300kw GTS was a Callaway-built engine .. Holden/HSV couldn't do their normal warranty claim junk of a GEM-built replacement (like I got with mine)??????

Rod.

The bottom ends are the same aren't they, Callaway just ported the heads added a cam and put on a bigger throttle body. Not much different at all.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The bottom ends are the same aren't they, Callaway just ported the heads added a cam and put on a bigger throttle body. Not much different at all.

Exactly right. It's still an LS1 V8.

I guess if it dies on someone and they need a new engine, they can turn to GM Performance Parts and buy a stock LS6. 302kW 542Nm... they should've used that engine in the first place.