Tariff cuts to proceed

[PepeLePew]

Interesting coming from Simon Crean isnt it? He'd have bleated a different message back in his trade union days....

How the tiger changes its stripes like its knickers...

[SB076]

Originally Posted by |||

I understand that they are not collected by car companies. My point was that why should I (Joe Blow working in a small business) pay more for an imported car simply because the government wants to protect the profit and employees of a multinational corporation?

If Aussie cars (well, American cars) can't compete on price then maybe they should offer something the imports don't. From all the threads on the state of Ford's customer service maybe they should start with that.

If we were talking about a newly formed Australian owned (or listed at least) company fighting against imports I would agree with you 100%. Ford & GM are big enough and old enough to fight the imports themselves in my opinion.

I beleive tariffs should run across multiple industries (where local industry is threatened, not just automotive - think farming and having farmers compete with cheap overseas produce, if its not protected - we will lose it and once its gone we wont get it back) I beleive any parts (components bought in from overseas should incurr tariffs too - not just complete cars (otherwise Ford, Holden and Toyota would simply bring parts in from overseas and assemble them here.

To answer your question why should you pay more for an imported car, agreed we shouldnt be protecting multinationals - however protecting the employees I beleive is in the best interest of the nation and ultimately thats protecting Joe Blow working in a small business (Joe Blows small business will not survive IMO if there are no other business around to support him)

[HUNTER8]

To put it graphically, why should Joe Blow support Australian made?
Check out the pictures on this website.
http://www.tonalscale.com/wsu/2006/edselford/index.htm
They were taken by someone I know who grew up in Detroit, in the area where the pictures were taken. This used to be a thriving area and you can see the ramifications of the downturn in the car industry over the years there.
Just remember it's not just Ford/Holden workers that suffer, it's the local deli, the servo, the mechanic etc etc as well.

[xbgs351]

So I guess you would all like to go back to the 'good old days'? In 1983, just before the Button Plan was introduced, tarrifs stood at almost 60%. How would you like to pay an additional 50% on your next new car purchase in order to support the Ford Motor Company?

[SB076]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

So I guess you would all like to go back to the 'good old days'? In 1983, just before the Button Plan was introduced, tarrifs stood at almost 60%. How would you like to pay an additional 50% on your next new car purchase in order to support the Ford Motor Company?

No and no, this is 2008 tarrifs of 60% is unacceptable and times have changed - I wasnt around for the Button Plan however tarrifs of 60% doesnt sound like protecting industry I would question whether figures that high had another purpose (such as revenue raising - however as I said I wasn't around so if I am wrong let me know)

Tarrifs (as taxes) need to be set a realistic figure to encourage competition and ensure local industry is working on reducing costs. As I have stated previously there is no such thing as a level playing field. In part this is due to government legislation (there are also other issues such as logistics, low population for a country this size etc) Therefore I beleive tarrifs are required to protect local industry.

[Wretched]

These companies should not be relying on tariffs for protection.
They should be able to stand on their own two feet, they should be building vehicles for the market not petrol slurpers.
I do understand that predicting the market is difficult and even more so changing product lineups. However there should be more flexibility in their processes. Ford are on the right track with the local assembly of the Focus. Ford, Holden and Toyota need to get off the big 6 bandwagon and get into smaller cars as well. If Toyota could develop the Hybrid so long a go why couldn't Ford and Holden? Where are our diesels?

The industry will change thats for sure with the reduction of the tariffs, whether it is a good thing or not is to be seen. Maybe Ford and Holden can step up and deliver something world class?

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

So I guess you would all like to go back to the 'good old days'? In 1983, just before the Button Plan was introduced, tarrifs stood at almost 60%. How would you like to pay an additional 50% on your next new car purchase in order to support the Ford Motor Company?

That's kinda the whole point :

Change consumer buyer habits towards locally manufactured cars. There is plenty of choice among the local three.

Everyone is an advocate of free trade until it affects their industry.

We already have the infastructure to build vehicles that suit the needs of MOST Australians. Why do we want to give that up so some a$$holes can buy a Hyundau for $10,00 instead of $11,000???

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Wretched

These companies should not be relying on tariffs for protection.
They should be able to stand on their own two feet, they should be building vehicles for the market not petrol slurpers.
I do understand that predicting the market is difficult and even more so changing product lineups. However there should be more flexibility in their processes. Ford are on the right track with the local assembly of the Focus. Ford, Holden and Toyota need to get off the big 6 bandwagon and get into smaller cars as well. If Toyota could develop the Hybrid so long a go why couldn't Ford and Holden? Where are our diesels?

The industry will change thats for sure with the reduction of the tariffs, whether it is a good thing or not is to be seen. Maybe Ford and Holden can step up and deliver something world class?

No they shouldnt rely on tarrif's but the government should provide tariffs as a wayy to ensure employment for many. Hopefully the local manufacturers will work on flexibility, if the Falcon goes and is not replaced the focus will not continue to be made in Aus (my opinion) Diesels should come on stream 2011. Hybrids lets be honest why?? if you look at it from a cost perspective is simiply isnt worth it (why buy a $35,000 Pruis when you can buy a $25,000 Corolla - rough figures - it wont save you $10,000 in fuel in 5 years)

A reduction of tarrifs may see the industry disappear plus numerous jobs - dont want to sound like its all doom and gloom.

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by SB076

No they shouldnt rely on tarrif's but the government should provide tariffs as a wayy to ensure employment for many. Hopefully the local manufacturers will work on flexibility, if the Falcon goes and is not replaced the focus will not continue to be made in Aus (my opinion) Diesels should come on stream 2011. Hybrids lets be honest why?? if you look at it from a cost perspective is simiply isnt worth it (why buy a $35,000 Pruis when you can buy a $25,000 Corolla - rough figures - it wont save you $10,000 in fuel in 5 years)

A reduction of tarrifs may see the industry disappear plus numerous jobs - dont want to sound like its all doom and gloom.

Considering that the unemployment rate is currently at the lowest level it has been in 33 years, and that back in 1983 when car tarrifs where almost 60% the unemployment rate was over 10%, that hardly sounds like a valid arguement

[|||]

Originally Posted by sleekism

That's kinda the whole point :

Change consumer buyer habits towards locally manufactured cars. There is plenty of choice among the local three.

Everyone is an advocate of free trade until it affects their industry.

We already have the infastructure to build vehicles that suit the needs of MOST Australians. Why do we want to give that up so some a$$holes can buy a Hyundau for $10,00 instead of $11,000???

Surely it's up to the customer (& taxpayer) to decide where to spend their money?

Personally I can't see the difference in giving my money to a US company or a Japanese company. All I want is the best possible car for the best possible price. The rest of the economy plays by these rules just fine. Why should 2 of the largest companies in the world get a break in Australia?

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by sleekism

That's kinda the whole point :

Change consumer buyer habits towards locally manufactured cars. There is plenty of choice among the local three.

Everyone is an advocate of free trade until it affects their industry.

We already have the infastructure to build vehicles that suit the needs of MOST Australians. Why do we want to give that up so some a$$holes can buy a Hyundau for $10,00 instead of $11,000???

If you want to pay a heap more tax, go right ahead and fudge your tax return instead. I know that I would far prefer to have that 60% of tax in my pocket rather than the governments.

How about other businesses? If they are paying more tax in the form of tarrifs, that will just drive their costs up and therefore their prices up, which will make them less competitive compared to foreign businesses.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by SB076

No they shouldnt rely on tarrif's but the government should provide tariffs as a wayy to ensure employment for many. Hopefully the local manufacturers will work on flexibility, if the Falcon goes and is not replaced the focus will not continue to be made in Aus (my opinion) Diesels should come on stream 2011. Hybrids lets be honest why?? if you look at it from a cost perspective is simiply isnt worth it (why buy a $35,000 Pruis when you can buy a $25,000 Corolla - rough figures - it wont save you $10,000 in fuel in 5 years)

A reduction of tarrifs may see the industry disappear plus numerous jobs - dont want to sound like its all doom and gloom.

First off, I am not on any side with this debate.
I am seeing it from both sides of the fence.
If the tariffs are to continue, so to provide job protection, then they should be across the board.
The problem I see with the local products is they're all the same essentially with no options really available (engines I mean). 2011 for diesel is probably a little late and while I am not a fan of the hybrid technology it doesn't mean that they couldn't use it. There is a market for it, why not option the Falcon with a LPG Hybrid system? They don't need to re invent the wheel, Ford of America have the Hybrid Escapes. But then this is the problem, they don't adapt and don't seem to care, then when no one buys their products it isn't their fault?

Whether or not the tariffs do cause job losses is to be seen. The locals IMO have done nothing to prepare for a global market and are now seeing the consequences. I don't like to see anyone lose their job it isn't a nice thing to happen but we can't keep propping up mediocre companies. Most out there have to survive on their own. I am in an industry that has no union, no tariffs and relies on the delivery of quality products and services.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

Considering that the unemployment rate is currently at the lowest level it has been in 33 years, and that back in 1983 when car tarrifs where almost 60% the unemployment rate was over 10%, that hardly sounds like a valid arguement

I dont think you can compare unemployment rates 20 odd years ago, there are many different factors that influence unemployment (economy for example) As a side note we are seeing unemployment rates increasing. In addition the reduction of tarrifs wont be felt for awhile (I think tarrifs are to phased out completely in 2015??)

As for the comment about other businesses (industries), I beleive other industries should be protected too (as I have said previously) In a perfect world there would be no need for tarrifs and everyone would compete. Unfortunately this isnt the case.

We can buy produce (fruit and veg) cheaper in South America and Asia does this mean we should abandon our local producers and buy cheaper product? What happens in ten years when we rely on overseas supply and we have no industry and living conditions in those countries rise and they pass the costs on to us?

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Wretched

First off, I am not on any side with this debate.
I am seeing it from both sides of the fence.
If the tariffs are to continue, so to provide job protection, then they should be across the board.
The problem I see with the local products is they're all the same essentially with no options really available (engines I mean). 2011 for diesel is probably a little late and while I am not a fan of the hybrid technology it doesn't mean that they couldn't use it. There is a market for it, why not option the Falcon with a LPG Hybrid system? They don't need to re invent the wheel, Ford of America have the Hybrid Escapes. But then this is the problem, they don't adapt and don't seem to care, then when no one buys their products it isn't their fault?

Whether or not the tariffs do cause job losses is to be seen. The locals IMO have done nothing to prepare for a global market and are now seeing the consequences. I don't like to see anyone lose their job it isn't a nice thing to happen but we can't keep propping up mediocre companies. Most out there have to survive on their own. I am in an industry that has no union, no tariffs and relies on the delivery of quality products and services.

I have read your previous posts and acknowledge your view point. I think hindsight is a great thing and if the automotive industry had its time again I am sure they would have done things differently. Interesting to note the the US auto manufacturers have actually tried to change course and are attempting to produce small efficient cars - however many have said that it was a mistake.

Without knowing what industry you are involved in - all industries rely on the health of the suppliers and customers, although this issue may not effect your industry it may effect your customers which in turn may effect you

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by SB076

I dont think you can compare unemployment rates 20 odd years ago, there are many different factors that influence unemployment (economy for example) As a side note we are seeing unemployment rates increasing. In addition the reduction of tarrifs wont be felt for awhile (I think tarrifs are to phased out completely in 2015??)

As for the comment about other businesses (industries), I beleive other industries should be protected too (as I have said previously) In a perfect world there would be no need for tarrifs and everyone would compete. Unfortunately this isnt the case.

We can buy produce (fruit and veg) cheaper in South America and Asia does this mean we should abandon our local producers and buy cheaper product? What happens in ten years when we rely on overseas supply and we have no industry and living conditions in those countries rise and they pass the costs on to us?

But why would you try to protect jobs when there is a massive labour shortage. It doesn't make sense.

So your answer is to have across the board tarrifs. That would make it even harder for exporters to compete internationally.

[MITCHAY]

If the cars Ford and Holden make are as good as what most on here all say they are then what do you have to worry about?

[SB076]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

But why would you try to protect jobs when there is a massive labour shortage. It doesn't make sense.

So your answer is to have across the board tarrifs. That would make it even harder for exporters to compete internationally.

Dont beleive what you hear about labor shortages. Are you aware that they changed the definition of "unemployeed" which reduced the figure (makes it difficult to do a direct comparison with years gone by) We are seeing a lot of people seeking employment in our area at the moment.

No system is perfect, I think across the board tarrifs are not required however I beleive that some industries need a form of protection to ensure survival of the industry.

Given the current trade deficeit - what are we actually exporting (in volume) apart from raw materials?

[HUNTER8]

Holden can produce a car in Australia and export to China (for example) and a 20% (dropped from 80% 2 years ago) tariff applies. Plus up to 17% VAT. We export raw materials to China for them to produce the car and there is no tariff. We then let them export to us and we drop our tariff?
Countries like Korea have dropped their tariffs but then make it harder for us to export to them. 2 to 3 years to approve an export and then only with modifications to the item being exported (don't argue with that because that's from the Austrade site).
Vietnam 73% tariff.
Malaysia used to do a tax audit if you bought an imported car.
We can sit here and go on about wether we should or shouldn't drop tariff protection for our industries (read OUR jobs) but unless the Asian countries match our reductions then we are just exporting our jobs ...........AGAIN!

[xtremerus]

Other countries subside their export industries to be competitive in Australia. If we lost our car manufactures, and had to rely totally on imported cars, do you think we would still get 'cheap' cars. And if our dollar falls, imports go up. Our Falcon and Commodore ARE world class value for money. It just seems to be an Ozzy thing to do, and knock the local products. As they say ' You don't know what you have, until it's gone '.
The current tariffs are 10% for cars and 5% for 4WDs[ I think ] so there will be no massive reduction in prices of imported cars if the tariffs are removed [Tariff applies to import price, not retail]. The value of the $AU has a bigger influence.
We still need to support all our local industries.

[XplosiveR6]

Originally Posted by |||

Surely it's up to the customer (& taxpayer) to decide where to spend their money?

Personally I can't see the difference in giving my money to a US company or a Japanese company. All I want is the best possible car for the best possible price. The rest of the economy plays by these rules just fine. Why should 2 of the largest companies in the world get a break in Australia?

Does it really matter what country the company originates, the simple fact is that these three company's which manufacture cars in Australia employ thousands of people, which alone helps the local economy. which is whats its all about isn't it?
What would you rather some of the numerous Australian company's who don't even manufacturer locally anymore, and more then likely employ more people offshore then they do here.
Globalization is here to stay and is only going to increase, so you better get used to it.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by birdman941

If Ford grew a brain and sent the Falcons here to the states,
it would help both countries.
Your cars look fantastic and seem to perform at a very high level.
I for one would buy one.

The problem here is the value of the Australian dollar to your greenback. Would the falcon be competitive if it sold for USD$50,000-$USD$60,000?

With a good deal of better built premium brands sitting in this price range in the US market, I would severely doubt so.

[|||]

Originally Posted by XplosiveR6

Does it really matter what country the company originates, the simple fact is that these three company's which manufacture cars in Australia employ thousands of people, which alone helps the local economy. which is whats its all about isn't it?
What would you rather some of the numerous Australian company's who don't even manufacturer locally anymore, and more then likely employ more people offshore then they do here.
Globalization is here to stay and is only going to increase, so you better get used to it.

I'm used to it

I have no problem with companies coming here and employing locals. I don't have a problem with Australian companies selling their goods on the world market. In fact I love both those things. The more the better I say.

I do have a problem consumers being penalised because the government decided that two particular American companies deserve special treatment in the car industry. I love Fords and have owned quite a few, but Ford & GM should be able to fend for themselves. If the only thing Ford & GM have to offer the market is that they are a few grand cheaper than the imports then they have real problems. Make decent cars and you wont need protection.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by |||

I'm used to it

I have no problem with companies coming here and employing locals. I don't have a problem with Australian companies selling their goods on the world market. In fact I love both those things. The more the better I say.

I do have a problem consumers being penalised because the government decided that two particular American companies deserve special treatment in the car industry. I love Fords and have owned quite a few, but Ford & GM should be able to fend for themselves. If the only thing Ford & GM have to offer the market is that they are a few grand cheaper than the imports then they have real problems. Make decent cars and you wont need protection.

The other problem is the run on effect to suppliers in this country, ford/holden/toyota outsource to companies in this country (regardless where the parts are manufactured) that will keep profits here.
They should just leave the tarrifs where they are, low tarrifs bring better quality cars (through more competition) and more efficient manufacturing.....well so they say.

[SB076]

For the low volume (by world standards) of cars Australia manufacturers, I beleive they offer a good quality and unique product.

Tarrifs exist in other countries whether they are called tarrifs or "export rebates", "import restrictions/caps", "raw material caps" or simply governments offering low cost bases (nil super, OHS, low wages etc) Why cant Oz offer some similiar protection to its workers?

Tarrifs I dont beleive will assist the multinationals, it will assist it securing local manufacture of cars. According to the Vfacts that Ratt post, the majority of sales of Ford's, Holden's and Toyota's is manufactured overseas, these vehicles would attract tarriffs.

Removal of tarrifs will not make all vehicles in Oz cheaper, LCT will still mean that your M3's and other cars will still be more expensive than in other regions.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

If you want to pay a heap more tax, go right ahead and fudge your tax return instead. I know that I would far prefer to have that 60% of tax in my pocket rather than the governments.

How about other businesses? If they are paying more tax in the form of tarrifs, that will just drive their costs up and therefore their prices up, which will make them less competitive compared to foreign businesses.

How do you figure that?? We are not talking Computers or Tooling we are talking a consumer item.

You have a valid argument for commercial vehicles but all that tariffs on passenger vehicles do is encourage consumers to buy local vehicles therefore helping the economy.

There is no way paying 10% more on a Corolla will lead to price rises unless farmers plough their fields with Corollas

[birdman941]

Originally Posted by sleekism

The problem is that if Ford U.S. axed the Crown Victoria and replaced it with an imported Falcon than there would be a huge uproar Stateside. Holden was lucky that GM did not have a large RWD vehicle.

At the very least they should allow the Falcon to be exported to the Middle East but then again the Crown Victoria is already being exported to the middle-east (and being eaten alive by Holden exports).

Ford North America have been headed by a bunch of retards since the early 70's I'm sorry to say. They are too busy trying to imitate the Japanese and building gawd awful FWD pussboxes when they should have been concentrating on traditional Ford strengths in RWD, V8's and pickups.

The Crown Vic is old and dated, and need to be replaced.
I don't think there would be an uproar,
as there was none with the Holden/GM/GTO fiasco.
Ford needs a mid to large size rear drive car that is stylish,
and exciting to own and drive.
It seems to me that the Falcon fits that bill.
Ford has not been run by retards since the 70's, (Red Poling was great)
but the whole Jac Nasser / Alex Trotman deal was extremely detrimental to Ford.
There is not a soul in this country that has a high opinion of that POS Nasser.
I worked for Ford Development in the Trotman/Nasser era,
and they both, as a team, virtually destroyed Ford
at its very foundation.
Nasser was FIRED by Billy Ford (Thank God) and Bill is trying to turn it around.
Funny thing is, when the whole Firestone/Explorer deal was in the news,
Nasser trashed Firestone live on TV to the US Congress.
Bill Ford is married to a Firestone.
Bad move Jac, you azzwipe.
I literally hate that Jacazz, for what he did to Ford,
and basically what he did to millions of people associated with Ford.
The Aussie Fords.
If you bring them, we will buy...........................

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by SB076

Dont beleive what you hear about labor shortages. Are you aware that they changed the definition of "unemployeed" which reduced the figure (makes it difficult to do a direct comparison with years gone by) We are seeing a lot of people seeking employment in our area at the moment.

No system is perfect, I think across the board tarrifs are not required however I beleive that some industries need a form of protection to ensure survival of the industry.

Given the current trade deficeit - what are we actually exporting (in volume) apart from raw materials?

As a manager trying to find people to fill skilled jobs, I believe in the labour shortage.

The definition of unemployment hasn't changed in decades. It's just a myth purported by those who don't grasp economics.

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by sleekism

How do you figure that?? We are not talking Computers or Tooling we are talking a consumer item.

You have a valid argument for commercial vehicles but all that tariffs on passenger vehicles do is encourage consumers to buy local vehicles therefore helping the economy.

There is no way paying 10% more on a Corolla will lead to price rises unless farmers plough their fields with Corollas

How about an exporter with a fleet of 50 cars worth $50k each? That same 10% is now 1/4 of a million dollars.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

As a manager trying to find people to fill skilled jobs, I believe in the labour shortage.

The definition of unemployment hasn't changed in decades. It's just a myth purported by those who don't grasp economics.

I have no doubt that there are shortages of certain skills - however that is not to say these shortages are across the board. We are finding the opposite of what you are finding - presumably because we are requiring different skill sets. FYI the SA state and Fed government are setting up funds to try encourage buisness to re employee former Mitsubishi workers, curently I beleive the figure is around $30 Mil

According to the ABS the definition of employement changed in 2001
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/7d12b0f6763c78caca257061001cc588/c9268f9db356d154ca256a950080b3e3!OpenDocument

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

How about an exporter with a fleet of 50 cars worth $50k each? That same 10% is now 1/4 of a million dollars.

What are you talking about??
:

Tariffs on passenger vehicles does not lead to inflation. That is a myth.

We are talking about CONSUMER ITEMS. It only leads to inflation if you apply tariffs to such things as Tractors, Computers, Tooling etc. which are used in the production process or if we didn't already have a vehicle manufacturing base and were starting from scratch.

All that tariffs on imported passenger vehicles does is encourage purchase of locally manufactured vehicles, which is good for our trade balance and creating a diverse economic base.

Nobody can argue that 10% cheaper Hyundais is good for the economy.