FWD Commodore?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Oh my goodness! I wonder what Jiz Spanks at Drivel.com.au will have to say about this little conundrum![U]

Another Holden first beating Ford to the punch by switching production to FWD?
The death of the Falcon is now assured.....

(and before anyone posts, I'm being extremely sarcastic... )

[aussie muscle]

Road_Warrior
Oh my goodness! I wonder what Jiz Spanks at Drivel.com.au will have to say about this little conundrum!

I'm sure he'll say he was right all along...

[Chopped]

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/09/24/r...heel-drive-gm/

" Rumormill: Rumblings of Zeta-based family of rear-wheel-drive GM sedans persist
by Jonathon Ramsey (RSS feed) on Sep 24th 2010 at 2:26PM

The ongoing yarn about General Motors fielding a brace of rear-wheel drive flagship sedans based on a new generation Premium Zeta platform has hit the big time, with Motor Trend reporting that the platform will underpin a sport sedan for Chevrolet. Last month, the rejigged Zeta was touted as the basis for a flagship Buick that would finally, and properly, challenge Lexus. MT's report says there will be two wheelbases for this new Zeta, and that those two variants will do duty under a Cadillac, a U.S. Buick and potentially a Chinese-market Buick, and several Holden models along with the aforementioned Chevy.

As the basis for premium sedans, General Motors could spend the money to make it properly light and strong through the use of high-strength steels. The Chevy sport sedan mentioned would be "a kind of four-door Camaro" – Pontiac G8 GXP redux, anyone? – while the Buick only gets described as "cushier," and both would go on the shorter wheelbase Zeta.

The most interesting tidbit could be Cadillac's use of the long-wheelbase platform. MT prices a Cadillac flagship at between $125,000 and $140,000 and says the Zeta-based Cadillac, Whitacre's S-Class rival for the Crest-and-Wreath brand, will sit beneath it. If it all comes to pass, that would give Cadillac a larger CTS, then an XTS, then a properly sporting high-end luxury competitor, then a one-Caddy-to-rule-them-all ne plus ultra model by 2014 or so. Hat tip to Joshua! "

Chinese made Chevys and Commodores ?!

[irlewy86]

Most of these rumors come from the same place, I wish they'd name sources and verify facts.

[vztrt]

Decision to be made soon.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/10/w...t-wheel-drive/

Will the next Holden Commodore go front-wheel drive?

by Jeff Glucker (RSS feed) on Dec 10th 2010 at 5:01PM

Since 1978, the Holden Commodore has been roaring across the land down under. It's worn a plethora of body styles ranging from coupe and sedan to wagon and ute, brought the Pontiac G8 to American soil and sold over 44,000 units last year in Australia. During its run, the Holden Commodore has been a rear-wheel drive vehicle, but new reports state that the front-engine/rear-drive layout may not be in the cards for much longer.

The next-generation Commodore is going to appear by 2015 and it's possible that General Motors may switch it to a front-wheel drive car. The goal is increased fuel-efficiency for GM's large cars and the front-wheel drive platforms are the ones set up to deliver the highest fuel efficiency.

The Holden Commodore could ride on the Super Epsilon II platform, which will also make its way into the next Chevrolet Impala and the upcoming Cadillac XTS. Sure, we understand why an automaker would look to make this change but it doesn't mean we have to like it. We prefer our Maltidas waltzing and our Commodores drifting.

[vztrt]

Holden Commodore D-day looms

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2577F5001AAD07

Front-wheel drive on agenda for 2015 Holden Commodore as GM mulls alternatives

10 December 2010

By RON HAMMERTON

GM HOLDEN chairman and managing director Mike Devereux has confirmed that a decision on the architecture for the next-generation Commodore due by 2015 will be made “fairly soon”.

But General Motors insiders have told GoAuto that a rear-drive platform is not a certainty for the all-new version of the top-selling Australian car, with rival engineering groups within GM canvassing more fuel-efficient front-drive/all-wheel-drive alternatives for GM’s Commodore-style large cars.

This could mean that both of Australia’s indigenous large cars, the Commodore and Ford Falcon, could end up on front-drive platforms in their next generation, with all-wheel-drive alternatives for high-performance models.

Ford is expected to make its own decision on the next Falcon by the end of 2011 – a likely similar time frame to GM’s Commodore deadline. The American-designed Ford Taurus, with front- and all-wheel-drive powertrains, is said to be one of the vehicles that could underpin the next Falcon.

Front-drive possibilities for the Holden Commodore include GM’s so-called Super Epsilon 2 platform for full sized cars that is expected to provide the base for the next Chevrolet Impala, Buick Park Avenue and Cadillac XTS.

The Super Epsilon architecture is said to be a wider and longer version of the Opel-engineered Epsilon design used under the Opel Insignia, Buick Regal and Saab 9-3.

The Holden assessment process for the next Commodore is in full swing, four years ahead of the likely start of production in 2015 at Holden’s Elizabeth plant in South Australia.

Holden is keen to sit the next Commodore on a new generation of its Australian-engineered Zeta global rear-drive platform. The current version underpins not only the VE Commodore but derivatives such as the Chevrolet Camaro and Chevrolet Caprice Police Patrol Vehicle.

American car magazine Motor Trend says a new Zeta rear-drive architecture in both short and long-wheelbase variants has been given the tick of approval within GM, but says it will be aimed at up-market vehicles such as a new rear-drive Cadillac and a Chevrolet “four-door Camaro”.

GM’s global engineering and manufacturing management teams have all visited Holden’s Port Melbourne headquarters in recent weeks to discuss large car architectures, and presumably hear what Holden engineers, designers and sales and marketing executives have in mind.

But some teams visiting the Holden HQ are also said to be lobbying Holden to convince it to adopt their front-drive platforms, extolling the potential fuel savings of the lighter transaxle design over a rear-drive layout.

Fuel economy improvement is a key target of GM worldwide, with “light weighting” the buzz term.

While Mr Devereux indicated a decision on the next Commodore was due in “two to three months”, saying “we have some architectural decisions we have to make”, a Holden insider suggested that did not mean the final call would be made in that time frame.

Speaking in Melbourne at an end-of-year briefing for journalists, Mr Devereux said GM was “very bullish about large rear-drive cars that can tow”.

“We had our global engineering team here a couple of weeks ago and we have had our global manufacturing team here this week, and they can’t believe the incidence of having a hitch – what we call a tow bar – on the back of a sedan is here,” he said.

“It is a very unusual thing – you don’t see it in the United States. We (Americans) have SUVs to do that in the United States.

“Commodore is a very unique vehicle in that it can tow – it is a very big package heading to very good fuel economy levels.”

Mr Devereux said Holden was aiming for 8.4 litres per 100km fuel economy for Commodore – down from the current 9.1L/100km of the 3.0-litre V6 Commodore Omega – the most fuel-efficient current Commodore variant.

“We have been talking with people about what we would do with turbo-charging Commodore or smaller engines and what not,” he said.

“Through our light-weighting (weight reduction) of this program, we should get down to 8.4 litres per 100km.”

But Mr Devereux later told GoAuto that the lower fuel economy target could be achieved within two years – in the life of the current Commodore.

This indicates that Holden is set to rework the current Commodore in about 2012 or 2013, potentially with lighter construction and a small-capacity turbo V6 tuned for fuel economy using similar technology to its new super-efficient 1.4-litre Cruze four-cylinder engine due in February.

Holden already makes turbo-charged V6s for Saab, Opel and Cadillac at its Port Melbourne engine plant, although these 2.8-litre engines are primarily tuned for high performance in cars such as the Saab 9-5 and 9-4X, Opel/Vauxhall Insignia VRX and Cadillac SRX.

In the more immediate term, Holden is set to introduce a dedicated LPG version of its Commodore, replacing the current petrol/LPG dual fuel set-up in October 2011, along with an E85 ethanol-capable version of its premium 3.6-litre V6 about the same time.

Currently, E85 can only be used in the current 3.0-litre V6 and 6.0-litre V8 engines introduced in the recent VE2 upgrade.

[glavas]

why would they even bother making a fwd commodore.id rather they killed off the name. no one would buy a fwd commodore anyway so there better off killing the name then then wasting money building it only for them to sit in lots. id stock up on the last rwd models put them in the garage and play the waiting game.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by TUF_302

If Commodore went FWD, i bet Falcon would follow, so i hope it stays RWD

Why? I think it would be quite the opposite actually. No large RWD competition will mean RWD Falcon sales would soar IMO.

[LeadFoot81]

Commodore is such an intrinsic part of the Aussie landscape, I think FWD Commodores would still sell.

[Archilino]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Why? I think it would be quite the opposite actually. No large RWD competition will mean RWD Falcon sales would soar IMO.

Thats the local school of thought but im guessing Dearborn would say "finally! Now give them the taurus and tell them to get over it. Thats an extra 1+ billion saved!"

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Why? I think it would be quite the opposite actually. No large RWD competition will mean RWD Falcon sales would soar IMO.

No RWD commodore, no RWD Falcon.

[csv8]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

The Commodore's biggest threat isn't front wheel drive, but offshore production in China or Daewooland.

But what happens when North Daewoo attacks South Daewoo?????

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by csv8

But what happens when North Daewoo attacks South Daewoo?????

More Sanyongs in our market?

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by Sizey

lets see how many people that tow will buy a front wheel drive commodore or falcon. If they go this way, expect to see a large jump in the amount of landcruisers and patrols on the road.

My parents for one. They specifically buy falcons for their tow capability.

[glavas]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

My parents for one. They specifically buy falcons for their tow capability.

Yeah but they won't buy it if they go fwd. You would be mad to tow with a fwd. I once saw a swift towing a jet ski I couldn't stop laughing. Really proved my point.

[SSD-85]

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

Commodore is such an intrinsic part of the Aussie landscape, I think FWD Commodores would still sell.

Agreed. The Commodore is still the 110% dinkus di, true blue, cobber old mate Ozzie as Roo-poo car. It will sell. Regardless of just how low GMHwoo can go with it.

And id have to agree with Ford following suit. As they seem allergic to so called "niche" markets. Fairlane & wagon anyone?

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by vztrt

No RWD commodore, no RWD Falcon.

Yes... that has been said a few times. But car to explain why that would be the case???

If there was no Corolla, i30, Cruze or Mazda 3 on the market do you think sales of Focus would rise or fall?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Yes... that has been said a few times. But car to explain why that would be the case???

If there was no Corolla, i30, Cruze or Mazda 3 on the market do you think sales of Focus would rise or fall?

The difference is that those two makes, Falcon and Commodore totally dominate large car sales,
that is not the case in small cars where the competition means sales are more divided.

I'm curious about Holden and where they see their V8 sales going in the next 4-5 years and if they're
thinking FWD/AWD sedans then perhaps importing a sporty V8 Alpha based sedan is on the agenda..

If Ford see the RWD and V8 arguments waining, perhaps a FWD/AWD replacement is still there
but I'm suspecting that given our climate with little snowy weather, an evolved RWD that's
lighter and shares with the next Mustang could still be the plan.

Ultimately, a case could be made for both manufacturers switching to global FWD/AWD cars
as equally as them plugging to RWD parts bin linked to Camaro/mustang and F Truck/Silverado.

Interesting times ahead...

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The difference is that those two makes, Falcon and Commodore totally dominate large car sales,
that is not the case in small cars where the competition means sales are more divided.

But that's exactly what I'm getting at before. The large sedan RWD mass market is pretty much a 2 horse race between Commodore and Falcon.

I would argue that after brand loyalty, the reason many buy either of these cars is their size / value ratio, durability, power and hauling ability and the availability of cheap replacement parts pretty much anywhere in the country at very little notice. Add to that an element of 'supporting our own'.

Remove RWD Commodore from the market and those buyers who still desire many of the above attributes in a car will have no other choice but to buy a RWD Falcon.

[jpd80]

Exactly, Holden or Ford's greatest fear is switching to a new FWD/AWD product and the market shunning it.
No one really knows what the economy will be like by then or whether fuel prices will spike again.
Both of those manufacturers will be looking to copy or at least cover each other's decision.
Maybe Ford should announce it is going FWD, let Holden change and then stick with RWD

[JG34JA]

Whichever side goes FWD, there is a great case for the other to stay RWD.

It would be like blue side dropping the V8 in 1982 (created a later generation of followers of the red) or the red side dropping the full body size in 1980 (created an immediate exodus to the blue for a decade).

Niches, gotta love 'em.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Sizey

lets see how many people that tow will buy a front wheel drive commodore or falcon. If they go this way, expect to see a large jump in the amount of landcruisers and patrols on the road.

I can't remember the last time I saw a Falcon or Commodore towing a caravan or horse float, out here everyone has SUVs or 4X4s for that stuff.

[Ford Falcon XR6]

This is part of the reason why the US dollar has dropped so much in the past few months to keep the're export market more vaiable. Because the US goverment bailed out GM and Ford somewhat and they put presure on GM and Ford to keep jobs in the US hence them trying to kan the falcon and commodore

[Bobman]

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

Commodore is such an intrinsic part of the Aussie landscape, I think FWD Commodores would still sell.

Yeah, except we'd see P plate versions with stockies on the front and 20" rims on the back instead.

[SSD-85]

Originally Posted by Bobman

Yeah, except we'd see P plate versions with stockies on the front and 20" rims on the back instead.

At least theyd fit in with the ricer boys. Maccas dinner trays and all

[banarcus]

Originally Posted by Archilino

Thats the local school of thought but im guessing Dearborn would say "finally! Now give them the taurus and tell them to get over it. Thats an extra 1+ billion saved!"

Look for your answer here ^^ Yellow_Festiva

The reasoning is that the Ford Motor Company have been considering FWD large cars here for a while now. The only reason not going that direction is the fact that the main opposition still use RWD. If GMH went FWD, an Australianised Taurus would arrive on our shores in no time.

[04redxr8]

On a different note, I hope they do go FWD. I am sick of spending so much money on new cars.

[Ryan]

The only way I could see it affecting sales is performance models like the SS, and HSVs, but the run of mill models shouldn't be that much of a problem. How many people buy Omegas (for example) with the drivetrain layout in mind?

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by banarcus

Look for your answer here ^^ Yellow_Festiva

The reasoning is that the Ford Motor Company have been considering FWD large cars here for a while now. The only reason not going that direction is the fact that the main opposition still use RWD. If GMH went FWD, an Australianised Taurus would arrive on our shores in no time.

The Taurus would save money, but bringing it here will then just create the exact same situation we find ourselves in now. 2 almost identical cars costing about the same with just brand and marketing setting them apart in the end.

Look at Falcon and Commodore. Each trading tit for tat on which is better (on board gadgets, that extra 100-200ml reduction in consumption over the 100, wheels, factory fitted options etc etc etc).

How many overseas markets use our large RWD sedans? Why? There must be a plethora of other FWD cars of similar size / price and performance available??

Just imaging the marketing edge Ford would have if they maintained RWD and Falcon as we have it now?

Ford Australia have decades of RWD R&D, and it can be strongly argued that for bang for your buck motoring, we provide some of the best large RWD sedans on this planet.

Throwing all that away because the competition does the same will be a monumental waste.

In business, a lot of success comes from not following what the competition is doing like blind sheep, but providing a product or service that is unique and different from the rest.

That's just my spin on things.

[Bobman]

Originally Posted by Ryan

The only way I could see it affecting sales is performance models like the SS, and HSVs, but the run of mill models shouldn't be that much of a problem. How many people buy Omegas (for example) with the drivetrain layout in mind?

Plenty of Omegas bought cheap by guys who put HSV kits or wheels on them, just like they did with Executives.. but as there hasn't been as much mention on Holden forums as there has been here about it, I'm doubtful Commodores will go FWD.