ANZAC Day

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by Envi XR8

No, Did you read the entire post or just the section that suited? If he is a veteran, then the bottom part of my post then becomes very relevant. It is his choice, and I would respect that. End of Story.
But if he is not, then I do pity his attitude and his inability to see that the very people he fails to acknowledge on ANZAC Day, their actions and willingness to serve are the same people that kept this country free and enable him to have such an attitude. The very fact he can have that outlook is the direct result of the generations before him that protected his freedom to do so. Don't you think that merits at least a thank you? Some form recognition? Are you saying that as free people we owe nothing to those who kept us free?
I think that as the generations that have come after and have lived as free people, recognising ANZAC Day is a mark of respect, one that is owed.

Each to their own.

I did read the entire post....if he is a veteran or not then the bottom half of your post still has no relevance. In one breath you say "it is his choice, and I would respect that. End of story"
But then you continue, without knowing anything else about why he chooses to do what he does or doesn't do.

Before you get me wrong,I do respect and I do show that respect in the way I choose.
By way of a topical reference, this is also the weekend where a large amount of people around the world pay their respects to someone, whom many millions have lost their lives to over the years. I have no desire to pay my respects to Him or them, that's my choice, but then what does that make me ??

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

By way of a topical reference, this is also the weekend where a large amount of people around the world pay their respects to someone, whom many millions have lost their lives to over the years. I have no desire to pay my respects to Him or them

Woah..are you saying people have died for the Easter bunny??

JK

On a serious note, there is no doubt we as a nation should see fit to acknowledge the feats and bravery of the people who protect us both hear and away, however, how one goes about that should be an entirely personal choice.
Whilst i dont attending dawn services i always take a minute out of the day to remember the fallen, even if only for the pre game service of the footy.

[shedcoupe]

Very civilised argument here fellas - congratulations.
This sort of thing can get horribly unpleasant as we know so well.
The old man would've been proud of us.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by shedcoupe

My dad spent 4 miserable years in the armed forces in WW2, as did his brother. Dad lost his best mate who burnt to death in a bomber. Dad saw boys and men burning to death in the sea, covered in oil. Dad was badly affected by the war, as much by the day-today misery as by battle.
Dad thought that AD was a load of bs and that we'd be far better off spending a day considering why the wars began, and why they weren't prevented. And no, he wasn't a communist, but a conservative.
Does that make my dad un-Australian ?
I don't think so - the diggers defended our right to have a different opinion to the majority and still be considered Australian, rather than be rounded up and stuffed into cattle-car trains to be murdered.
We Aussies seem to pride ourselves on being rugged individualists (Ned Kelly and so on) but imho are, at our worst, the biggest bunch of snivelling conformists who wouldn't say boo to a goose. Though obviously we have great courage and endurance when the chips are down and evil has to be fought.
Consider me a loser if you like - it is your right, won with blood and tears.
RIP diggers.

It doesnt make you a loser. Your dad and many others fought for your right to that belief.

I think youre wrong about your associations of ANZAC day though. Wars start over governments, over money, over power, and sometimes other governments are left with no choice and other times they are just too stubborn. Im not making any statements about which government is which, its just a generalisation of governments of all persuasions. Without that, there would be no ANZAC day, that is true enough.

BUT, ANZAC day is about the men and women who paid the ultimate price. It has nothing to do with governments. If you read the plaque from one of the pictures above, thats the Turks speaking with words from Mustafa Ataturk. Not an enemy, fellow soldiers, families and a nation speaking on behalf of its fallen, to our fallen and their families. Sides dont matter because governments dont matter in the purposes of the day. It really is about the men and women, and of all sides. Today, its about reflecting on all wars. Mustafa Ataturk was responsible for the bullets that rained down on the ANZACS.


Seems to me, it is inline with your views when you understand its real purpose. The tragedy of war, the glory of those who sacrificed, not the glory of war. And, our appreciation of the freedom that sacrifice provided.

[shedcoupe]

Originally Posted by fmc351

I think youre wrong about your associations of ANZAC day though.

I didn't think that I'd made any assertions about my own personal opinion of AD, rather a statement of my dad's views, but yes, it isn't my cup of tea really, if only for the fact there seems to be so little discussion about why the poor sods were sent away to die in the first place. The whole thing is just so sad, yet a source of pride and hope and thanks at the same time.

But watching the march and the luxuriant nose-hair and ear-hair did make me feel a bit younger .....

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

it is both easter monday and anzac day - it is only because we are a nation of disrespecting slackers that tomorrow might be considered anzac day or easter tuesday

I agree 100%

Originally Posted by shedcoupe

My dad spent 4 miserable years in the armed forces in WW2, as did his brother. Dad lost his best mate who burnt to death in a bomber. Dad saw boys and men burning to death in the sea, covered in oil. Dad was badly affected by the war, as much by the day-today misery as by battle.
Dad thought that AD was a load of bs and that we'd be far better off spending a day considering why the wars began, and why they weren't prevented. And no, he wasn't a communist, but a conservative.
Does that make my dad un-Australian ?
I don't think so - the diggers defended our right to have a different opinion to the majority and still be considered Australian, rather than be rounded up and stuffed into cattle-car trains to be murdered.
We Aussies seem to pride ourselves on being rugged individualists (Ned Kelly and so on) but imho are, at our worst, the biggest bunch of snivelling conformists who wouldn't say boo to a goose. Though obviously we have great courage and endurance when the chips are down and evil has to be fought.
Consider me a loser if you like - it is your right, won with blood and tears.
RIP diggers.

I'm with your dad.

I honestly don't believe war is a necessary part of our world. It stems from greed and a want of what other men have and whilst I appreciate what the ANZAC's have done for our country, I would much preferred to see them grow old with their loved ones, watched their children grow up, or even get to see their children before they died, fighting for something that wasn't our fight to start off with.

I would like to have actually known the family I had that were killed in these wars, instead of hearing the story about them dying, and the family they left behind.

The sound of the trumpet sends chills down my spine, and for the most part, our country respects the actions of these diggers, but it always seems to be marred by some deadhead getting ****faced and acting like a tool...just another excuse for a p***-up

I'm not unaustralian, and I'm not a lefty...I am who I am, and I'll never believe that this was 'necessary'.

[shedcoupe]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I agree 100%



I honestly don't believe war is a necessary part of our world. It stems from greed and a want of what other men have ....

Right on, sister. All wars are about money and assets. The reasons may be described in ideological terms, religious terms, etc etc, but the bottom line is always money.
Well that's what I think, and I've been wrong a thousand times before .....

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by shedcoupe

I didn't think that I'd made any assertions about my own personal opinion of AD, rather a statement of my dad's views, but yes, it isn't my cup of tea really, if only for the fact there seems to be so little discussion about why the poor sods were sent away to die in the first place. The whole thing is just so sad, yet a source of pride and hope and thanks at the same time.

But watching the march and the luxuriant nose-hair and ear-hair did make me feel a bit younger .....

I did say associations, not assertions. And those associations are self evident in how you view the day. The reasons for wars are not relevant on the day (obviously they are important to understand, and I dont disagree with the sentiment at all, war is such a tragic waste, of often a nations best people and often very avoidable, even those who make it home are not the same), but that day is just about paying respects to the men and women who paid the ultimate price for their service.

To me, associating it with politics or governments is missing the point of that day.

[shedcoupe]

Originally Posted by fmc351

I did say associations, not assertions. And those associations are self evident in how you view the day. The reasons for wars are not relevant on the day (obviously they are important to understand, and I dont disagree with the sentiment at all, war is such a tragic waste, of often a nations best people and often very avoidable, even those who make it home are not the same), but that day is just about paying respects to the men and women who paid the ultimate price for their service.

To me, associating it with politics or governments is missing the point of that day.

Fair comment.

So would an CAZNA day on October the 25th be an idea ? A day where we ask ourselves why the crowds in Trafalgar Square cheered the beginning of WW1, or where we ask who should have stood up to Hitler and Tojo, and when, and why they chickened out ?

Not having a go at you or anyone at all, I just want to see a bit of national emphasis on war-prevention. I'm not a pacifist, I do think that we need military forces, and I just want to make the world a better place, and if it means shooting earlier rather than later, then so be it.

Stupid hippy. I'm supposed to be doing Cert 4 OHS assignment questions, not babbling on in cyberspace.

[Low006]

[/QUOTE]

What a poignant picture. The poppy. Great Shot - "we will remember them"

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by shedcoupe

Fair comment.

So would an CAZNA day on October the 25th be an idea ? A day where we ask ourselves why the crowds in Trafalgar Square cheered the beginning of WW1, or where we ask who should have stood up to Hitler and Tojo, and when, and why they chickened out ?

Not having a go at you or anyone at all, I just want to see a bit of national emphasis on war-prevention. I'm not a pacifist, I do think that we need military forces, and I just want to make the world a better place, and if it means shooting earlier rather than later, then so be it.

Stupid hippy. I'm supposed to be doing Cert 4 OHS assignment questions, not babbling on in cyberspace.

Id have no objection to a day dedicated to understanding the reasons for wars, and finger pointing.


Go study/research.

[cs123]

Some on here may not be aware of this fellow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atatürk

Probably a good occasion to read up about him. He is an enemy commander that is honoured at our war memorial.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemal_A...rial,_Canberra

[shedcoupe]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Id have no objection to a day dedicated to understanding the reasons for wars, and finger pointing.


Go study/research.

Yes, finger-pointing on AD is pretty ugly. No two ways about it. I'm a bit ashamed for even raising the issues that I did, but I'm not known for being sensible all the time. Wants to play nicely, but doesn't always play well with others.
Got the T-shirt as well.

Ataturk seems like a good bloke for his times. Pity we attacked him. Oh here I go again.

I'm not a hippy either, more of a weird hybrid of punk hippy and green fascist.
A free spirit, I live by my own rules and sometimes harvest the bitter result of what I sow.

An evolutionary dead-end perhaps.

[BHDOGS]

i have respect for the anzacs and what they did and are still doing in Afghanistan i believe its an important mission but the battle for freedom is far from over millions still grind in poverty and under oppression and dictator ship and the only reason we entered was because we ourselves were in danger but if we arnt it seems were happy to sit back and say its somebody elses problem the tyrants never stop and take a back seat yet the democracys do until there in danger.

[BHDOGS]

what im trying to say is weve had our gallipoli and our tobruk weve fought and died for freedom but theres still anzacs out there fighting and dieing for there freedom from the rebels in libya to the protesters in yemen and syria its the same spirit the spirit of freedom and release from oppression they might wear diffrent uniforms and not be australians but today could be there turning point maybe in 30 years there children will look back and celebrate there freedom and those who fought and died for there better lives. Lets not just use anzac day to look backwards lets use it to look forwards to and there hear and now and celebrate those who are still showing the anzac spirit and dieing for freedom which is y i dont celebrate it today i celebrate it every day. everytime a dictator falls everytime the rebels take another city is worth celebrating because its another win for the anzac spirit. Or maybe im just talking **** and should go get drunk and wave a flag like the rest of em.

[XCwillo]

Wow, there's an argument in the ANZAC thread?
Good work guys -_-
I loved my ANZAC day, my platoon marched in Wagga Wagga in the main street. It gives such an amazing feeling, nothing you could experiance as a civilian. Just putting on the poly's, fixing the lanyards and badges on, and then marching off on that 7th drum beat. Absalutely awe inspiring moment.

[Streets]

Originally Posted by XCwillo

Wow, there's an argument in the ANZAC thread?
Good work guys -_-

Them's fightin words :P

[shedcoupe]

My sincere apologies to all the people I've offended today - something I've had vast experience of, but never seem to avoid completely.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by XCwillo

Wow, there's an argument in the ANZAC thread?
Good work guys -_-

Where?

No need to apologise Rex, you're allowed an opinion.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by cs123

Some on here may not be aware of this fellow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atatürk

Probably a good occasion to read up about him. He is an enemy commander that is honoured at our war memorial.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemal_A...rial,_Canberra

One thing which a lot of people do forget, is that knowing/ repecting the enemy is something which has been lost kinda?

I have seen plenty of docos about our soldiers from various wars revisiting old battle grounds and actually meeting some of the men they were fighting against.

As an example about 10yrs i think, some aussies who fought Rommels troops in africa met some of the Germans they fought.

Veitnam vets have gone back and met up with their old enemies...

and each time they have hugged each other like old lost brothers.
Maybe its some form of closure?

Many years ago former Israelie soldiers who were fed up with fighting a never ending war over Palestine formed a group (cant remember the name) to try and stop the war. These old soldiers were shocked to find out that former Palestinian soldiers had also formed a group with the same idea.
These people who were brought up on killing each other met face to face several times and were shocked to find that..... they were alike in every fashion!
They all had the same worries, all had families, all had seen the same things.... the were brothers.
(I have no idea if these groups still exsist today this was in the late 1990s)
Its a pity more stories like these arent shown and reported.

[castellan]

Remember when ANZAC Day was just about finished and now we have a big turn around and people are coming again now.

Why! is this so.

I remember the media being down on it but now they are pushing it and now people are coming is it just a trendy thing to do now. like jim said all dressed up like .

And what about the bas-ards that spat on our own men and the bludgers who went on strike in WW2.

And how about this we are loosing our freedoms and rights now and the trash have too many rights and we have to put up with all these sods barking on about something that these people never put their lives on the line for.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

My Grandfather passed earlier this year, aged 90. He was a fantastic grandfather to me and a fantastic role model, but also a true gentleman of a bygone era who always conducted himself impecabley, yet was always ready for laugh.

He was an ANZAC from New Zealand, an engineer by trade who fought in Africa and Italy during WW2, this I knew since I was a child,... but I never really understood what it meant, or what relevance his actions had to me as a person in todays world.

I was always told that we owed our freedom to those who fought in WW2 during my schooling, however it was last night after a bbq with friends that I was nursing a cold beer in one hand, holding my pool cue in the other, that I realised how lucky I was to be doing this at my age, freely.

From the few conversation I had about the war while he was alive, my grandfather on the other hand was somewhere in Africa, taking artillary shelling in the form of 105mm howitzer rounds, washing out tanks stained with blood, having to witness the unthinkable.

He only ever marched once with his medals,.... last year... before his 90th birthday after much elbowing in the ribs from my father.

We never understood why he didn't march before, he never saw the point in it, however this time he was not there just for himself, he was representing his whole unit,..... he was the only one left.

All I know is that I miss my grandfather deeply, and thinking of him still brings me to tears. I know not what terror he witnessed, he never talked much about the war, I only know how much his sacafice and the sacrafice those other men and women made means to me, and how I am going to honour them and never forget what it has given us.

Lest we forget.



Resto in pace nonno

[fordomatic]

i would just like to share my story with you guys. the majority of my day was great, and marching in Melbourne was definitely memorable, and the dawn service was one the best i have been to. i didn't want to bring this up here but it has severely dissapointed me with what happened. on monday me and my mates were refused entry to a number of licensed establishments in Melbourne due to the fact we were wearing our medals on Anzac day. I find this reprehensible. We were discriminated against for our occupation and status in society. we were not unruly and we were not violent in any way. we weren't even that drunk as me and my mates find it very disrespectful to get written off on Anzac day. one of my mates who has a medal for gallantry from when we were in Afghanistan even got called, "a little B%#ch" by one of the bouncers.

How is this respectful to soldiers on Anzac day?

[grandpa_spec_F6]

I think most on here would share your contempt for the glorified door men you encountered, and their vulgar attitudes.

[Streets]

Don't worry... the bouncer is just sooky because he scrubbed out of the application process on psychological grounds... and I'd also bet he has a small weenie

[Tuddy200]

ANZAC Day is not representing the war, it's representing those that lost thier lives being caught up in it.

Personally, I get to drive my car like a hoon rather then sitting in a metre deep trenh dodging bullets. Remember, just because some were able to return with thier lives the effects for years after is just as hard as losing thier life all together.

They did not choose to go to war, they chose to defend us if forced to go to war, for that I am thankful, including our current servicemen and women.

Yes, there could be no wars or fighting if everyone learnt to get along, sadly, that is not the case.

I do not support the war, I support the troops caught up in it.

[Envi XR8]

Originally Posted by grandpa_spec_au

My Grandfather passed earlier this year, aged 90. He was a fantastic grandfather to me and a fantastic role model, but also a true gentleman of a bygone era who always conducted himself impecabley, yet was always ready for laugh.

He was an ANZAC from New Zealand, an engineer by trade who fought in Africa and Italy during WW2, this I knew since I was a child,... but I never really understood what it meant, or what relevance his actions had to me as a person in todays world.

I was always told that we owed our freedom to those who fought in WW2 during my schooling, however it was last night after a bbq with friends that I was nursing a cold beer in one hand, holding my pool cue in the other, that I realised how lucky I was to be doing this at my age, freely.

From the few conversation I had about the war while he was alive, my grandfather on the other hand was somewhere in Africa, taking artillary shelling in the form of 105mm howitzer rounds, washing out tanks stained with blood, having to witness the unthinkable.

He only ever marched once with his medals,.... last year... before his 90th birthday after much elbowing in the ribs from my father.

We never understood why he didn't march before, he never saw the point in it, however this time he was not there just for himself, he was representing his whole unit,..... he was the only one left.

All I know is that I miss my grandfather deeply, and thinking of him still brings me to tears. I know not what terror he witnessed, he never talked much about the war, I only know how much his sacafice and the sacrafice those other men and women made means to me, and how I am going to honour them and never forget what it has given us.

Lest we forget.



Resto in pace nonno

One of the best posts in the whole thread.

The one thing I remember about my grandfather was that he never asked me for anything. Everything he did, the protection and freedom he fought for and helped to provide, was given to me, as his Grandson. All he ever wanted from me was to be the best person I could.

Originally Posted by fordomatic

i would just like to share my story with you guys. the majority of my day was great, and marching in Melbourne was definitely memorable, and the dawn service was one the best i have been to. i didn't want to bring this up here but it has severely dissapointed me with what happened. on monday me and my mates were refused entry to a number of licensed establishments in Melbourne due to the fact we were wearing our medals on Anzac day. I find this reprehensible. We were discriminated against for our occupation and status in society. we were not unruly and we were not violent in any way. we weren't even that drunk as me and my mates find it very disrespectful to get written off on Anzac day. one of my mates who has a medal for gallantry from when we were in Afghanistan even got called, "a little B%#ch" by one of the bouncers.

How is this respectful to soldiers on Anzac day?

That is a disgraceful incident. Not only should they have let you in, for free, they should of shouted you and your mates a round of drinks. Just confirms for me that these people can not truly appreciate a free life.

If I wore hats, I would tip mine to you mate. I hope you had a good ANZAC Day other than this.

[Spanrz]

Originally Posted by fordomatic

and marching in Melbourne was definitely memorable, and the dawn service was one the best i have been to.

Did you notice the bagpipe music at all (the song with the band, not the lone piper)?? Trying to find out what the name of it was...(something like Scotland the departed??)

Yes the Melb service was very moody, due to the fog. The ambience was sureal.

I used to go in the march years ago (1980's), my Grandfather was with the Australian Paratroopers. He is long past and not many of them survive now. It would be good to march, but I now feel weird to march as there is much conjecture about what "relative" can march.... More to do with marching in memory of.... As with the WW1 people, it's said to be left alone on that part. But some people still march in for the WW2 "departed".

My wife is American, a very true American..lol. Her father served in the Subs (Navy) back in the 50's till the 80's, she was even born at West Point Academy and she goes with me to the Dawn Service. She hates getting up, she is definately not a morning person (with a passion) and she still strives to conjure up effort to go to this.
Probably for my Grandfathers sake and that her Mothers Cousin served and died in WW2 (not that it has anything to do with ANZAC), but it's the thought of the 'Memorial' that counts.
A great uncle served in WW1, he was part of the camel corps that picked up the injured at Beersheba. He survived but came back to what I think it's known as shellshock. He went off the tree a bit.

Parts of my roots (and my wifes roots) most probably make me go to the Dawn Service. My pop would have been proud that I still go. He was one of the blokes that would talk about it, but in the way of the reality of it. He wouldn't butter it up.
When you talk to a lot of these blokes, it's the mateship stories ya wanna hear. That's how they got through it all.
"War is Hell"....."But the memory remains"......

[MO]

Originally Posted by fordomatic

i would just like to share my story with you guys. the majority of my day was great, and marching in Melbourne was definitely memorable, and the dawn service was one the best i have been to. i didn't want to bring this up here but it has severely dissapointed me with what happened. on monday me and my mates were refused entry to a number of licensed establishments in Melbourne due to the fact we were wearing our medals on Anzac day. I find this reprehensible. We were discriminated against for our occupation and status in society. we were not unruly and we were not violent in any way. we weren't even that drunk as me and my mates find it very disrespectful to get written off on Anzac day. one of my mates who has a medal for gallantry from when we were in Afghanistan even got called, "a little B%#ch" by one of the bouncers.

How is this respectful to soldiers on Anzac day?

I'm sorry you and your mates were treated like that, bloody unreal.
As for the bouncers well I'd like to see how they'd end up if they had to exchange fire.
Thanks for doing the job your doing,wear your uniform and medals with pride,because we're proud of you guys.

[fordomatic]

Originally Posted by MO

I'm sorry you and your mates were treated like that, bloody unreal.
As for the bouncers well I'd like to see how they'd end up if they had to exchange fire.
Thanks for doing the job your doing,wear your uniform and medals with pride,because we're proud of you guys.

thanks for the kind words mate. i was going to leave it out of here but it has honestly made me extremely angry. there is no use getting into a fight with these sort of people, it gets you nowhere but into trouble, as it always makes you look like the bad guy in the end.