Spitfire vs BF109

[superyob]

During the battle, the fighter pilots were criticised by Göring for the growing bomber losses. In a front line General Officer briefing on Luftwaffe tactics, Göring asked what his fighter pilots needed to win the battle. Werner Mölders replied that he would like the Bf 109 to be fitted with more powerful engines. Galland replied: "I should like an outfit of Spitfires for my squadron." which left Göring speechless with rage.[61] Galland still preferred the Bf 109 for offensive sweeps, but he perceived the Spitfire to be a better defensive fighter, owing to its manoeuvrability.[62] Galland said:


The Bf 109 was superior in the attack and not so suitable for purely defensive purposes as the Spitfire, which, although a little slower, was much more manoeuvrable.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Galland

I am not a fan of Wikipedia as a source of reliable information but I am certain this is the full context of that quote from Galland...

[Legit290]

Yes he speaks about it in his autobiography 'The First and the Last' published by Methuen.
It is a great read. He had another run-in with Hitler towards the end of the war when they clashed over the ME 262 jet.

[Bill M]

From Great aviation myths - http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/misc/myths1.htm

"Adolf Galland rated the Spitfire so highly he told Goering 'Give me a squadron of Spitfires'." - Here's a quote from his book The First And The Last:

"The theme of fighter protection was chewed over again and again. Goering clearly represented the point of view of the bombers and demanded close and rigid protection. The bomber, he said, was more important than record bag figures. I tried to point out that the Me109 was superior in the attack and not so suitable for purely defensive purposes as the Spitfire, which, although a little slower, was much more manoeuvrable. He rejected my objection. We received many more harsh words. Finally, as his time ran short, he grew more amiable and asked what were the requirements for our squadrons. Moelders asked for a series of Me109's with more powerful engines. The request was granted. 'And you ?' Goering turned to me. I did not hesitate long. 'I should like an outfit of Spitfires for my group.' After blurting this out, I had rather a shock, for it was not really meant that way. Of course, fundamentally I preferred our Me109 to the Spitfire, but I was unbelievably vexed at the lack of understanding and the stubbornness with which the command gave us orders we could not execute - or only incompletely - as a result of many shortcomings for which we were not to blame. Such brazen-faced impudence made even Goering speechless. He stamped off, growling as he went."

[Tex Scrotum]

Gallands book is a good read but one of my all time favourites is this book.



Admittedly there is some controversy surrounding this book but I still love it regardless!

[Legit290]

I have that one too but my cover is him in his Tempest.

[Uncle_Ken]

Originally Posted by SB076

I would go with the Me109 for Battle of Britain, but then I would switch to an FW190. I wouldnt touch a Zero (not knocking it great plane) Mustangs and Spitfires were better later in the war

Best looking plane for me was a Mosquito

That's what my father flew (from 1944). Very fast only worried by jets.


UK

[Uncle_Ken]

Re spit vs 109 in 1940, the 190 for me for resons already stated
UK

[marty351]

Originally Posted by Uncle_Ken

Re spit vs 109 in 1940, the 190 for me for resons already stated
UK

Radial or water cooled?
Either way, it was a most deadly fighter against any rivals, but lack of experienced pilots by 1944 saw it almost useless. Thankfully.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by marty351

Radial or water cooled?
Either way, it was a most deadly fighter against any rivals, but lack of experienced pilots by 1944 saw it almost useless. Thankfully.

Yep. Dora.

Arguably the the beautiful fighter of WWII.

[marty351]

Originally Posted by Uncle_Ken

That's what my father flew (from 1944). Very fast only worried by jets.
image

UK

My grandfather serviced the radar units on the night fighter units based at Bristol aerodrome.
Just after the war ended, my father (about 4 years old) remembers crawling up the nose of a mosquito and could smell the cordite and gunpowder along with the high octane petrol.

I don't know why when I immediately saw for the first time a picture of a mosquito,I fell in love with it.
If I had 3 wishes, the first would be to own one.

[Uncle_Ken]

I still have my Dads medals and flight log. One entry states 'Chased by Jet, dived and went like hell'.
The Mossies could fly at their top speed for longer the ME. From what I have read the jets went after planes they had a clear speed advantage over.
My first model plane was a mosquito.
UK

[Ratmick]

If you want to have a comparison between the planes in the Second World War and beyond have a read of this book.

Eric 'Winkle' Brown was a test pilot, flew everything the British and the Yanks had, and anything they could capture from the Germans, pre, during and post-war. Amazing gentleman, still kicking around today.

He has a few records that will never be broken, for example he's logged time in 487 basic types of aircraft (this covers a Spitfire as one aircraft but he actually flew 14 variants which weren't individually counted) plus he's logged 2407 carrier landings. If I recall he taught himself to fly a Yank helicopter from the manual they gave him with the aircraft...as I said, an amazing gentleman.

An example of his work:

In 1946 he test flew a modified (strengthened and control-boosted) de Havilland DH.108 after a crash in a similar aircraft while diving at speeds approaching the sound barrier had killed Geoffrey de Havilland, Jr. Brown initially started his tests from a height of 35,000 ft, rising to 45,000 ft and during a dive from the latter he achieved a Mach number of 0.985.

It was only when attempting the tests from the same height as de Havilland, 4,000 ft,that he discovered that in a Mach 0.88 dive from that altitude the aircraft suffered from a high-g pitch oscillation at several hertz (Hz). "the ride was smooth, then suddenly it all went to pieces ... as the plane porpoised wildly my chin hit my chest, jerked hard back, slammed forward again, repeated it over and over, flogged by the awful whipping of the plane ...". Remembering the drill he had often practised, Brown managed to pull back gently on both stick and throttle and the motion; "... ceased as quickly as it had started". He believed that he survived the test flight partly because he was a shorter man, de Havilland having suffered a broken neck possibly due to the violent oscillation. Test instrumentation on Brown's flight recorded during the oscillations accelerations of +4 and −3g's at 3 Hz. Brown described the DH 108 as; "A killer. Nasty stall. Vicious undamped longitudinal oscillation at speed in bumps". All three DH.108 aircraft were lost in fatal accidents.

His favourite planes were a variant of the Vietnam-era F86 Sabre with the 'all-flying tail' and a sea version of the Mosquito (de Havilland Hornet/Sea Hornet) which could take off near-vertical and loop on one engine. If you liked the Mosquito then you'd love one of these.

From what I can remember of my own lifetime love of aircraft the Spitfire had a slightly better rate of climb (in later variants) than the Bf109 but the 109 could escape by nosing down into a power dive very quickly as it was fuel injected whereas the Spitfire had carburettors that used the starve the flow of fuel when they pulled negative Gs. As a result the Spitfire pilots had to flip over on their back and power dive, which took time.

A major disadvantage of the 109 was a weakness in the tail design which often resulted in catastrophic failure of the tail units when operating out of rough airfields in France.

As someone mentioned there was a distinct advantage to fighting over home soil as well. But really although the kudos goes to the Spitfire the Battle of Britain was won by the Hurricane...

...and luckily for the Yanks and Brits they bombed the poop out of the Focke Wulf factories, the 190 was another great plane.

My personal choice would be a later variant of the P51 Mustang. Beautiful beautiful plane, saw one hanging off the ceiling of the Imperial War Museum in London. There's a mob in Queensland that makes 3/4 size scale replicas...that's a Tattslotto thing for me.

[superyob]

The P-51D is possibly the most beautiful piece of piston powered machinery ever made...

[CoupeKing]

Imagine the crew in a bomber at that stage of the war glancing out the window and seeing a couple of fat-bellied Mustangs with drop-tanks and 6x 50 cals.... You'd feel more protected than a litter of pitbull puppies.

Got to hand it to the mostly inexperienced German pilots that engaged them.

[Tex Scrotum]

Ratmick I've been meaning to get hold of Eric 'Winkle' Brown's book to read as you have said, he sounds like an extraordinary man.

How can you not love a Mustang, a beautiful aircraft, one of many that came out during the heady and quiet fantastic (from a design point of view) WW2 era!

In fact I'm about to start reliving my childhood and get back into making model aircraft at the age of 51.
I'm just waiting for my first 2 models to arrive, both 1/24 scale Airfix , a P51D and a ME BF109E, should be a bit of fun and a break away from the car.

Cheers!

[superyob]

Originally Posted by Tex Scrotum

Ratmick I've been meaning to get hold of Eric 'Winkle' Brown's book to read as you have said, he sounds like an extraordinary man.

How can you not love a Mustang, a beautiful aircraft, one of many that came out during the heady and quiet fantastic (from a design point of view) WW2 era!

In fact I'm about to start reliving my childhood and get back into making model aircraft at the age of 51.
I'm just waiting for my first 2 models to arrive, both 1/24 scale Airfix , a P51D and a ME BF109E, should be a bit of fun and a break away from the car.

Cheers!

Pics when finished please!!!

[Tex Scrotum]

Originally Posted by superyob

Pics when finished please!!!

Yeah sure no worries.

But don't hold your breath though, I have a way of making these little projects last a long time 😉

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Ratmick

My personal choice would be a later variant of the P51 Mustang. Beautiful beautiful plane, saw one hanging off the ceiling of the Imperial War Museum in London. There's a mob in Queensland that makes 3/4 size scale replicas...that's a Tattslotto thing for me.

You need to come up here one weekend, there's a couple of (flying) Spitfires just down the road

[Ratmick]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

You need to come up here one weekend, there's a couple of (flying) Spitfires just down the road

I'll keep that in mind mate, I may have a trip up to Wodonga in January to see my partner's kids, and Wagga is only an hour further north (I can leave her there to natter).

It would have been an amazing time to be an aviator. Entry into the Second World War saw quite a few biplanes still in use, five years later we had jets, the rudiments of helicopters and V2 rockets.

[last fairlane]

Hey Rat
There was a mob at Jindalee here in Brisbane
that were making 3/4 scale Spitfires
that was about 10 years ago
I dont know what happened to them
I havnt heard a thing about them since
and yes the Hurricanes had more kills
but you cant beat the Spitfire for looks
its the equivalant in looks of a 34 Ford
well it is from the same era
John

[Ratmick]

Originally Posted by last fairlane

Hey Rat
There was a mob at Jindalee here in Brisbane
that were making 3/4 scale Spitfires
that was about 10 years ago
I dont know what happened to them
I havnt heard a thing about them since
and yes the Hurricanes had more kills
but you cant beat the Spitfire for looks
its the equivalant in looks of a 34 Ford
well it is from the same era
John

3/4 scale Spitfire, that would be nearly as good!!!! .

I read about them in a book by Charley Borman years back, thought they were Mustangs. I'd settle for a Spit...

Need to find them on the internet now...not that easy it appears.

Was in Brisbane, now Texas in the USA.

[Uncle_Ken]

Nice colour shot


UK

[superyob]

I would probably fill my jocks at the sight of that yellow nose aiming at me in a real dogfight. It looks like it's designed to kill. Function over form...

[Uncle_Ken]

A bit off type of plane but I like it because when I look at my silver XR8 I kind of think something like this...


UK

[eed-250]

There is a replica full scale fw190 flying around in Albury. If anyone is lucky enough that lives down there.

[Uncle_Ken]

I do like this one...


UK

[superyob]

That certainly has nice lines...

[SB076]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

Goering was too busy playing with his train sets, speed, wine/art collection and walking around in his mansions in a bath robe with pockets full of conquered gems.

He should have conferred with Galland.

Makes you wonder what the Luftwaffe would have accomplished with someone else in charge. I often wondered what would have happened if Ernst Udet (?) had the role as opposed to Goering.

[goo33]

The Mosquito.
Fastest plane in WWII.
Broke record after record.
Only plane faster was the experimental Nazi jet.
Mosquito only beaten by Spitfire in manoeuvrability.
Mosquito would have mowed-down Spitfires and P47s on speed alone.

[CoupeKing]

Originally Posted by SB076

Makes you wonder what the Luftwaffe would have accomplished with someone else in charge. I often wondered what would have happened if Ernst Udet (?) had the role as opposed to Goering.

Yeah for sure.

Look at Dunkirk. From memory Goering promised the high command that his planes could seal the deal so the armour was halted, only to have 300 thousand + trained enemy make it home to be re-equipped and come back bigger and stronger.

And his promise to supply the 6th Army at Stalingrad..... I got a book somewhere you could almost classify it as a comedy. At Christmas instead of supplying food/ammo/fuel...they sent in Christmas trees and decorations to improve morale. There was one instance where an entire cargo plane was full of nothing but pepper!....guess you could use that in hand-to-hand combat - this was after most of the horses died from heart attacks or were eaten by the troops.