April 2015 vfacts - Commodore 6th, Falcon nowhere

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Yes it is multilayered but there are some clear identifiers. Over the years, Falcon could probably claim more to be Australian than Commodore. Camry might be made here but it's a completely Japanese car with no acknowledgement to the Australian market. Skoda has unique Czech ways of doing things that VW doesn't. I understand that pretty much all of it also comes from CZ not Germany, in fact they supply engines, transmissions etc to VW. So I included the country in the list as one that does its own distinctive brand and it's the biggest selling brand in CZ last time I looked. After that I guess we're down to semantics at 10 paces.

We agree on most things apart from Skoda . Skoda was allowed to design own bodies for VW mechanicals - aside from that Skoda is no different to Toyota Australia .
As a part of VAG Skoda manufactures 3cyl engines and DSG transimissions for the group. Main reason for that is cheaper labour cost and tradition of manufacturing in the area. Multinationals manufacture components world wide and distribute for assembly as needed.
I have a bit of a personal interest in Skoda but if you like to learn more about the company here is some reading for you
http://www.skoda-auto.com/SiteCollec...eport-2013.pdf
As for camry , according to Toyota it has 70% of local content , not bad for completely Japanese car :-)

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Polyal

It amazes me how well Toyota do...shows you dont need any sporting credentials to sell.

Imagine if the GT86 had the power the market wants (no doubt it will come).

Imagine if the Corolla had some sort of sporty model....

Not a Toyota fan by any stretch, but the Corolla is one cracker of a car though. Corners, handles, accelerates and brakes adequately enough for most road conditions (Aurions and Camries are torque steering, tyre squealing, oversteering pigs in comparison) and if I drove any Falcon like I drove the Corolla, it would need tyres every 5,000kms, have shocking brake shudder and no fuel economy. The corolla lasted 50,000 on one set of tyres, only 1 brake pad change, survived being rear ended by a dump truck and still keeps going. No brake shudder, diff whine or weird intermittent faults.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Not a Toyota fan by any stretch, but the Corolla is one cracker of a car though. Corners, handles, accelerates and brakes adequately enough for most road conditions (Aurions and Camries are torque steering, tyre squealing, oversteering pigs in comparison) and if I drove any Falcon like I drove the Corolla, it would need tyres every 5,000kms, have shocking brake shudder and no fuel economy. The corolla lasted 50,000 on one set of tyres, only 1 brake pad change, survived being rear ended by a dump truck and still keeps going. No brake shudder, diff whine or weird intermittent faults.

Hmmm Corrolla , rented one in Adelaide for 3 weeks in 2013 current CVT model. No power ordinary fuel economy handling wa sokay maybe it didnt go very fast was driving it to try and get some sort of economy , did not rate it.

My 2008 Ford Focus TDCI, pads changed at 150000, on my third set of tyres, first 2 sets did 80000+kms before replacement, never had brake shudder,
goes like a train , averages 5.0 litres per 100km, and is now on 202000kms.
Corolla-no thanks I,ll take a FORD!

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

We agree on most things apart from Skoda . Skoda was allowed to design own bodies for VW mechanicals - aside from that Skoda is no different to Toyota Australia .
As a part of VAG Skoda manufactures 3cyl engines and DSG transimissions for the group. Main reason for that is cheaper labour cost and tradition of manufacturing in the area. Multinationals manufacture components world wide and distribute for assembly as needed.
I have a bit of a personal interest in Skoda but if you like to learn more about the company here is some reading for you
http://www.skoda-auto.com/SiteCollec...eport-2013.pdf
As for camry , according to Toyota it has 70% of local content , not bad for completely Japanese car :-)

When I worked in the Australian motor industry we were manufacturing overseas models with 97% Australian content! Nobody claimed they were Australian cars though, apart from some later models with Australian-specific designs. I would call the Camry a Japanese car that's manufactured in Australia.

Skoda is not quite as easy to nail down. On (modified) VAG platforms for sure, closely controlled by VAG to ensure it doesn't go too far from the fold (corporate tensions there because Skoda has too often done a better job than VW), but with a distinctive Czech flavour that is best defined as practical.

I've done work in another field of transportation that involves a lot of the Czech and German product and I would summarise the Czechs as coming from a huge tradition of manufacturing and technical excellence, innovative, deeply pragmatic and highly attentive to quality and robustness.

The Germans have most of these qualities too but are not as pragmatic and fall down on quality management. If Skoda does a Volkswagen, it does a better one - with more internal space and other little features. And more rugged as far as being captive to VAG technology (e.g. DSG) allows. Being in VAG is a two-edged sword for Skoda. On the one hand it gives them an excellent FWD platform, on the other it gives them dogs like the DSG.

I'd buy a Skoda if only it had a ZF transmission! And I'd call them a Czech car based on my experience with Australian manufacturing. If we deviated as much from the parent models as Skoda does we called it an Australian car.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by Bluey-GT

Not so sure its "large" cars that's the issue.
I see plenty of new Klugers , X5's , Range Rovers , Pathfinders and heaps of C class Mercs and MAZDA 6 etc... Coomodore outselling CAMRYand None of these are "small" and they'd all certainly be a handful to manouvre in traffic and small parking spaces - yet they sell like hotcakes.

IMHO its boring cars with average tech and minimal gadgetry that are a dead segment. Unfortunately - Falcon is seen to be very "vanilla" and VERY boring and agricultural and the FORD branding is on the nose as well.

I've still only ever seen 3 new FG X Falcons on the road. A rare bird indeed !

The majority of cars you mentioned aren't sedans. Commodores aren't selling like hot cakes. They've gone from the clear number one seller to only selling 2000 a month in 6th place and on a steady decline. The rest are not worth mentioning.

[vbvbvb088]

Trivia question.... which model/year / month took XE Falcon from the Commodore briefly from Number One?

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by vbvbvb088

Trivia question.... which model/year / month took XE Falcon from the Commodore briefly from Number One?

Is that " briefly number one from the Commodore" ?

[Yaw]

I want to offer a personal Opinion.

Australia has for a while now had a love of the SUV market, Pretty much since 2001.
I for one Went from a 4 door sedan to A Ford Escape, Then in 2007 I purchased a New Territory. In the next 6 months or so I am looking for a new car. I am heavily leaning towards a Dual Cab Ford Ranger.

Now seeing the Ranger has overtaken the commodore, is it possible that like me people have now had and seen the much more versatility of a large SUV, they now crave more. My way of thinking with the Ranger is, I am not a 4WD nut, in fact will probably not go off road, but I hate towing trailers (I can't reverse them for nuts) The obvious answer is the Dual Cab ute?

[701let]

Originally Posted by Yaw

I want to offer a personal Opinion.

Australia has for a while now had a love of the SUV market, Pretty much since 2001.
I for one Went from a 4 door sedan to A Ford Escape, Then in 2007 I purchased a New Territory. In the next 6 months or so I am looking for a new car. I am heavily leaning towards a Dual Cab Ford Ranger.

Now seeing the Ranger has overtaken the commodore, is it possible that like me people have now had and seen the much more versatility of a large SUV, they now crave more. My way of thinking with the Ranger is, I am not a 4WD nut, in fact will probably not go off road, but I hate towing trailers (I can't reverse them for nuts) The obvious answer is the Dual Cab ute?

not to go too far off topic but be aware that the usable space in a dual cab ute isn't very usable.. and I'm not just talking about the ranger. you can fit far more in a trailer. you would probably end up towing a trailer in the ute anyway. In case that is the main reason you are thinking of going the dual cab option. off road driving is another matter but as you said that's not what you will be doing anyway

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by 701let

not to go too far off topic but be aware that the usable space in a dual cab ute isn't very usable.. and I'm not just talking about the ranger. you can fit far more in a trailer. you would probably end up towing a trailer in the ute anyway. In case that is the main reason you are thinking of going the dual cab option. off road driving is another matter but as you said that's not what you will be doing anyway

My use of a trailer is limited to dump trips and occasional moving large items. or bringing home things from Bunning's. So the useable space is not a big issue for me. Its just the versatility of being able to all of what I can do.

This one is purely personal too, I like being in a higher vehicle.

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

The majority of cars you mentioned aren't sedans. Commodores aren't selling like hot cakes. They've gone from the clear number one seller to only selling 2000 a month in 6th place and on a steady decline. The rest are not worth mentioning.

Point I was making is that people are still buying "large" cars.
Commodore is still selling well in both sedan and wagon and the V8's are driving themselves out the door.
If people were "off" large vehicles and especially thirsty ones, the vehicles mentioned wouldn't even be selling 50 units per month.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Bluey-GT

Point I was making is that people are still buying "large" cars.
Commodore is still selling well in both sedan and wagon and the V8's are driving themselves out the door.
If people were "off" large vehicles and especially thirsty ones, the vehicles mentioned wouldn't even be selling 50 units per month.

People aren't off large vehicles they moved to SUV's and 4 door utes.

Does anyone know how many Commodores are built per day?

[prydey]

if you look at the top 10, the only 'large' vehicles are the hilux and ranger... and commodore.

small suv's are the rage, and many of these are still cheaper to run than the traditional large cars of yesterday. they also offer the higher driving position which seems to appeal to many.

i'm a one eyed blue oval person, and will only by fords, but i've never really had too much of an emotional attachment to falcon. while its available, it wins, but i'm currently looking in to whether or not a kuga would cover all my requirements.

its choice that has smashed the market in to a million tiny segments. the traditional cross shopping is gone. people shop between all sorts of different sizes and styles.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by vztrt

People aren't off large vehicles they moved to SUV's and 4 door utes.

Does anyone know how many Commodores are built per day?

Holdens are going from 290 cars built per day currently, to 240 cars per day from end of May. Out of those, I assume they are making about 60 to 70 cruzes a day, around 20 Utes per day, and around 6 local Caprices a day.

Thus by quick estimate, that leaves around 190 (currently) to about 140 (from end of may), commodores for local market, and LH exports.

If you accept they are making 100 a day (from end of May) to supply the local market (which matches current sales of around 2100 per month), then SWFA is getting sold into the private market. The SA government alone takes circa 4 to 5% of Commodore production.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

I have a bit of a personal interest in Skoda but if you like to learn more about the company here is some reading for you
http://www.skoda-auto.com/SiteCollec...eport-2013.pdf
As for camry , according to Toyota it has 70% of local content , not bad for completely Japanese car :-)

It's naughty of us to carry on this slightly OT parallel discussion on this thread, but as a belated conclusion, here is a very interesting discussion just appeared on Caradvice:

http://www.caradvice.com.au/352844/v...hin-the-ranks/

The longer comment towards the end of the comments, by Lubos Motl, makes an interesting point - that market-wise, the roles of the Skoda and VW brands should actually be reversed, with VW going back to its original cheap entry-level purpose and Skoda being the marque with the quality association. But of course VAG is owned by Germans ....

Badge snobbery is a funny thing. Many people go gaga over VWs, which were created as a cheap (literal translation) "people's cart", whereas Skoda is one of the oldest automotive marques in the world (120 this year) with a distinguished history (except during the period when communist managers got hold of it).

If only VAG could loosen the reins a bit so that Skoda can choose its own gearboxes (and other dodgy VW components)! Like I said, a two-edged sword for Skoda and will remain so until some commercial sense prevails at VAG.

[RANGEREST]

Originally Posted by 701let

not to go too far off topic but be aware that the usable space in a dual cab ute isn't very usable.. and I'm not just talking about the ranger. you can fit far more in a trailer. you would probably end up towing a trailer in the ute anyway. In case that is the main reason you are thinking of going the dual cab option. off road driving is another matter but as you said that's not what you will be doing anyway

Sorry for dragging this further ,
if it's to replace a territory, the space is a massive increase, I tend to use my Ranger (with a canopy) floor area about 1200x1500, more than our territory, which is about 1200x900, bikes fridge etc etc fit easily.

[russellw]

The graphical stats for the month of April are now both uploaded into the Tech Portal.

April Sales Stats

April Supplementary Stats

Cheers
Russ

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by new2ford

It's naughty of us to carry on this slightly OT parallel discussion on this thread, but as a belated conclusion, here is a very interesting discussion just appeared on Caradvice:

http://www.caradvice.com.au/352844/v...hin-the-ranks/

The longer comment towards the end of the comments, by Lubos Motl, makes an interesting point - that market-wise, the roles of the Skoda and VW brands should actually be reversed, with VW going back to its original cheap entry-level purpose and Skoda being the marque with the quality association. But of course VAG is owned by Germans ....

Badge snobbery is a funny thing. Many people go gaga over VWs, which were created as a cheap (literal translation) "people's cart", whereas Skoda is one of the oldest automotive marques in the world (120 this year) with a distinguished history (except during the period when communist managers got hold of it).

If only VAG could loosen the reins a bit so that Skoda can choose its own gearboxes (and other dodgy VW components)! Like I said, a two-edged sword for Skoda and will remain so until some commercial sense prevails at VAG.

You only have to look at new Superb to see some of the prediction already happening . Maybe Skoda can resurrect Tatra brand as its luxury offshoot ? :-)

[new2ford]

Tatra is taken - it's a separate entity, a truck manufacturer. It was never part of Skoda, in fact a rival.

The funny thing in the sales rooms here, the sales staff keep telling you that Skodas are "German" and really VWs. The snob value of the VW badge must be huge in Australia. I just reply that they've just lost a Skoda sale by telling me that and that I regard VW as unreliable junk.

In the service department on the other hand they tell me that the VWs are the ones that are brought in behind a tow truck. The Fords and Skodas don't have issues of that extent.

I really hope Skoda gets more independence it deserves. Problem with that new Superb though, from a Ford point of view, is that it will be a dangerous rival to Mondeo.

[SumoDog68]

I rode in T148 as a kid , V8 air cooled truck ,backbone chassis and sounds like nothing else on the road :-) .
In reality not many people know anything about Skoda so it was probably easier to get some recognition through VW connection.

[new2ford]

Tatra trucks are still sold in Australia to the mining industry.

We'd better terminate this conversation before we're asked to start a separate thread ;)

[XR Martin]

Since we're talking about VAG... sat in a $45k Passat today and I thought these things were supposed to be the pinnacle of interior design and quality. If people whinge about the Falcon's seat being too high then they should get in a Passat - its worse.
Quite a few cheap interior bits here and there also.

[MrZ]

russellw - in your April sales statistics you state "There were no Ford models inside the Top 20". I'm not sure where you got this idea. The Ranger was in 5th place.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by MrZ

russellw - in your April sales statistics you state "There were no Ford models inside the Top 20". I'm not sure where you got this idea. The Ranger was in 5th place.

.. and if you read it properly you would note that it excludes commercial vehicles otherwise a good portion of the top 20 would be filled with them.

Russ

[castellan]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Tatra is taken - it's a separate entity, a truck manufacturer. It was never part of Skoda, in fact a rival.

The funny thing in the sales rooms here, the sales staff keep telling you that Skodas are "German" and really VWs. The snob value of the VW badge must be huge in Australia. I just reply that they've just lost a Skoda sale by telling me that and that I regard VW as unreliable junk.

In the service department on the other hand they tell me that the VWs are the ones that are brought in behind a tow truck. The Fords and Skodas don't have issues of that extent.

I really hope Skoda gets more independence it deserves. Problem with that new Superb though, from a Ford point of view, is that it will be a dangerous rival to Mondeo.

VW are now snob value now, are they.

When I think of VW I think of beetle and combi good cars for the poor.
Sure they are much better car today.

I think the German cars are looked up to because they come from a place where people can drive 250 KM/H and the cars are made to that sort of expectation and when you read the German test driving reporting you realise that someone has the capacity to truly put forward it's total ability's, not just some dopy Aussie drongo's half **** opinion that only cover what some new age metro dude wants to see or your Grandma point of view.

I don't think the majority of people want to drive a little 4 cyl in Australia but they are forced to, or it's more of just a trend in some way.

Old mate up the road thinks it's real funny that I drive a V8, he can't get his head around why I do. he is just an idiot, why would I 'want' to drive just rubbish un inspiring gutless pile of junk.

A lot of people only want cheap transport and would not know any better nor do they care less. if it was up to people like that, we would still be driving FJ Holden's around nowadays.

[minheim]

Originally Posted by castellan

.....
I don't think the majority of people want to drive a little 4 cyl in Australia but they are forced to, or it's more of just a trend in some way.

Old mate up the road thinks it's real funny that I drive a V8, he can't get his head around why I do. he is just an idiot, why would I 'want' to drive just rubbish un inspiring gutless pile of junk.

A lot of people only want cheap transport and would not know any better nor do they care less. if it was up to people like that, we would still be driving FJ Holden's around nowadays.

People aren't forced to drive 4 cylinders; they choose to. They may want economy or don't need the extra power of a bigger engine. Many 4 cylinders now produce more than adequate power for many people's needs and interior wise are not that much smaller than what were full size cars in years gone by. You can even buy a 4 cylinder falcon which many say is a better car than the traditional six it sells alongside. Imports are what made the local manufacturers actually add basic comfort features many decades ago and which have forced technological advance these days. Without import competition we still be "driving HR and XRs". These days the world is your oyster whether you want power, economy, size or a mixture and you need scale to compete in it.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by castellan

I think the German cars are looked up to because they come from a place where people can drive 250 KM/H and the cars are made to that sort of expectation

Any car of any size nowadays is designed to cruise comfortably at least at 160 km/h or more. Experience being overtaken by little buzzboxes at this speed on European motorways! It's just that we never get to experience that in nanny country here - we hardly get past idling speed here before the blue lights start flashing!

My German friend who works as a quality engineer over there says Germans are very good at producing expensive junk and people fall for it because its German. Look where German marques sit in this list (excepting the one at no. 7!):

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer

German cars are nice to drive though!

[Sprintey]

Russelw that is some excellent research and reporting. I wouldn't be surprised if FOA, or any of the other autosellers in Australia for that matter, are members just to read your data.

Cheers!

[Sprintey]

Goodness me, those volume charts of Fiesta (from mid 2011), Focus (from mid 2013) and Mondeo (from 2011) have fallen off a cliff. (I know there's a new model coming for the latter.) 44 cars?

Wheras everyone has picked the decade long fall of large cars, this has happened relatively recently. It can't be the dual clutch autos, because VW is gaining sales despite it's DSG. Falcon and ute were 711, Territory 802, and these three combined were only 744.

What has happened to Ford's smaller passenger cars? They have been advertised, too. They are better than the sales suggest - for one, like the Territory they are among the best steers in their classes.

[new2ford]

I think its very disappointing because as shown in the table in my previous post, the European small Fords are basically the best German-built cars. And they are great cars overall. I don't know if Thai assembly would make any difference, but probably most of the market wouldn't be aware of that. Maybe the Ford brand is on the nose here in Australia?