Is N/A Dying? - Page 2

flappist · 09-06-2013, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brett7777

Soarers are an exceptional car though. Engine problems - no. (dash fade, electric windows n/w, clearcoat peel, aircon n/w, - yes lol, although not all, some seem to escape these faults). Anyway truly great well built motors and great cars.
So they might be a bit of an exception...

Well they are basically a rear wheel drive camry with an I6 engine.....

brett7777 · 09-06-2013, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Well they are basically a rear wheel drive camry with an I6 engine.....

But ahhhhhh what an engine...
I prefer the 4L V8, but the twin turbo I6 kicks *** too.

chevypower · 10-06-2013, 01:26 AM

Even when the power output of a turbo DI engine matches a larger N/A engine, the turbo has better low-end torque, less power loss at high altitude, and increased efficiency. A small downside, there is still a little turbo lag. I have noticed lag in some N/A cars too (probably to do with ECM or transmission calibration).

SumoDog68 · 10-06-2013, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Well they are basically a rear wheel drive camry with an I6 engine.....

Soarer shares a body , UZ and JZ engines ,torsen diff , double wishbone suspension Front and rear with Camry -

Soarer has as much in common with Camry as much as Falcon has with Mondeo meaning nothing....( except for the fact that Mondeo does use Ecobooost :-) )
JZ series engines are old school large capacity turbo engines not this new low boost , ecoboost , direct injection 1 litre triples . Completly different technology even if both use turbos.

302 XC · 10-06-2013, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

Even when the power output of a turbo DI engine matches a larger N/A engine, the turbo has better low-end torque, less power loss at high altitude, and increased efficiency.

The local Nissan dealer was telling me the new TD 2.5 L navara will make mince meat of my 4.2 EFI n/a patrol, right across the range,power,torque ,towing and use less than half the juice doin it ....
But , and here is the big question will the navara at 250 Ks,and 15 years old do what my patrol still does now .....

Small boosted engines are impressive none the less, but when the ford 4 L is boosted it opens up a whole new ball game
Pretty good when one of the tuffest if not the tuffest aussie built engine is the turbo ford 6 ....

mex351 · 10-06-2013, 09:25 AM

Different level I know but I went N/A over boost and even stayed 6cyl over V8.I even got a NAT ASP FG XR6 but if I was buying more for me than family I would have went supercharged V8 as it could be made to go fast and still tow my ute around.

**ebxr8240** · 10-06-2013, 09:28 AM

To get power from N/A engine cam specs create emission issues..
While forced induction keeps air flow constantly flowing the same direction..
With very mild cam specs with VERY little overlap where both inlet and exhaust are not open at the same time.. Denser / compressed air has more oxygen to burn all the fuel..

chevypower · 10-06-2013, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 302 XC

The local Nissan dealer was telling me the new TD 2.5 L navara will make mince meat of my 4.2 EFI n/a patrol, right across the range,power,torque ,towing and use less than half the juice doin it ....
But , and here is the big question will the navara at 250 Ks,and 15 years old do what my patrol still does now .....

Small boosted engines are impressive none the less, but when the ford 4 L is boosted it opens up a whole new ball game
Pretty good when one of the tuffest if not the tuffest aussie built engine is the turbo ford 6 ....

Cylinder displacement isn't in any way indicative of structural integrity of the components. Though unnecessary complexity can cause problems (because there is more to go wrong), which is probably what you're getting at.

**Bluehoon** · 10-06-2013, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

To get power from N/A engine cam specs create emission issues..
While forced induction keeps air flow constantly flowing the same direction..
With very mild cam specs with VERY little overlap where both inlet and exhaust are not open at the same time.. Denser / compressed air has more oxygen to burn all the fuel..

Yes but there needs to be a balance of heat there too to get the correct burn in the cat...?

**ebxr8240** · 10-06-2013, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluehoon

Yes but there needs to be a balance of heat there too to get the correct burn in the cat...?

Yes that's correct !! Modern EFI fluctuates between rich and lean to keep cats working efficiently..To protect them as well.. Which is why WRX engines have two 02 sensors either side of the cat...

GTP owner · 10-06-2013, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olds

Turbo' s have a short life and high replacement cost

Do they???
My xr6t has done 200,000km, including 2 super street championship wins, lots of track days, towed a disco 2 over 300km as well as my drag car to numerous meetings, yet has never needed to be replaced or rebuilt.
Can't say the same for many Holden v8s though....

flappist · 10-06-2013, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

Soarer shares a body , UZ and JZ engines ,torsen diff , double wishbone suspension Front and rear with Camry -

Soarer has as much in common with Camry as much as Falcon has with Mondeo meaning nothing....( except for the fact that Mondeo does use Ecobooost :-) )
JZ series engines are old school large capacity turbo engines not this new low boost , ecoboost , direct injection 1 litre triples . Completly different technology even if both use turbos.

Yep "Falcon is basically a rear wheel drive mondeo" is how I would explain a Falcon to anyone who lived in a country where mondeos were available new domestically and the only way you could buy a Falcon was as a cheap grey imported second hand unit that could no longer be registered in the country it was designed for.......

GT-spec15 · 10-06-2013, 02:24 PM

Yes NA is on the way out.

It's possible to get impressive power/economy from a smaller forced induction engine. The Japanese have known this for decades.

Even BMW/Merc Benz are going down the turbocharging path.

GT-spec15 · 10-06-2013, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

A small downside, there is still a little turbo lag. I have noticed lag in some N/A cars too (probably to do with ECM or transmission calibration).

Not an issue with variable turbine geometry.

Extensively used in trucks and now moving into passenger cars. Go for a ride in a current 911 Turbo - it's a tidal wave of instant torque.

Bossxr8 · 10-06-2013, 02:53 PM

The problem with VGT and petrol engines is sky high exhaust temps. Porsche had major dramas with this on the 911 Turbo, and so far are the only ones that use it on a petrol engine.

I doubt it will ever be mainstream.

**Bluehoon** · 10-06-2013, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The problem with VGT and petrol engines is sky high exhaust temps. Porsche had major dramas with this on the 911 Turbo, and so far are the only ones that use it on a petrol engine.

I doubt it will ever be mainstream.

Mainstream on diesel, yes. My truck has it, it's awesome.

Petrol - I agree with you.

Franco Cozzo · 10-06-2013, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The problem with VGT and petrol engines is sky high exhaust temps. Porsche had major dramas with this on the 911 Turbo, and so far are the only ones that use it on a petrol engine.

I doubt it will ever be mainstream.

I think the EGT problem with VGT turbos is that the Garrett design is fairly poor, Holset has a better design to deal with heat.

Its only aftermarket but I've seen Holset HE351VE turbos being used on petrol engines with good results.

FGII-XR6 · 10-06-2013, 05:44 PM

very 20th century thinking there. turbo technology has evolved to a reliable cost effective method of making power . old school turbos were fragile but new designs and cooling/ lubrication methods have changed this. sure if you flog the guts out of a turbo it may let you down but isn't this the same with any engine type?

Quote:

Originally Posted by olds

Turbo' s have a short life and high replacement cost

SumoDog68 · 10-06-2013, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Yep "Falcon is basically a rear wheel drive mondeo" is how I would explain a Falcon to anyone who lived in a country where mondeos were available new domestically and the only way you could buy a Falcon was as a cheap grey imported second hand unit that could no longer be registered in the country it was designed for.......

Soarers were available in Australia as a new car and were not cheap. That was Z40 series and was called Lexus SC430 . Truth is most people think of Grey import 30 and earlier 20 series When Soarer name is mentioned.

FGII-XR6 · 10-06-2013, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

A small downside, there is still a little turbo lag. I have noticed lag in some N/A cars too (probably to do with ECM or transmission calibration).

not on a well designed car, take a falcon ecoboost for a drive, floor it and see if you feel the same about lag. I drove one expecting heaps of lag but it was very responsive off the mark

dieseltrain79 · 10-06-2013, 05:55 PM

I was merely pointing out that turbos don't die at 100,000kms and do last along time when boosted or pushed hard .

dieseltrain79 · 10-06-2013, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

Soarers were available in Australia as a new car and were not cheap. That was Z40 series and was called Lexus SC430 . Truth is most people think of Grey import 30 and earlier 20 series When Soarer name is mentioned.

Actually lexus did sell the sc400 series locally . Rare but they did .

SumoDog68 · 10-06-2013, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieseltrain79

Actually lexus did sell the sc400 series locally . Rare but they did .

Pretty sure there were no australian delivered SC400 . Some do attach Lexus badges on them but that doesnt count :-).

dieseltrain79 · 10-06-2013, 06:19 PM

Sorry they were available through Lexus dealers , albeit 2nd hand but practically new .

flappist · 10-06-2013, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

Soarers were available in Australia as a new car and were not cheap. That was Z40 series and was called Lexus SC430 . Truth is most people think of Grey import 30 and earlier 20 series When Soarer name is mentioned.

The Lexus SC430 was not a Soarer in the same way that a Monaro is not a Pontiac GTO.
It was also not a turbo I6 like the one described earlier in this thread defending turbo longevity.

You can twist and turn your story as much you like but to the vast majority of car enthusiasts in Australia a soarer is a grey imported rwd camry looking Toyota and no amount of watching Fast and Furious repeats is going to change it.

GT-spec15 · 10-06-2013, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieseltrain79

I was merely pointing out that turbos don't die at 100,000kms and do last along time when boosted or pushed hard .

I have clocked up 187k in my 2005 WRX and it is running as strong as ever. There are several WRXs in the club with 300k+ on original hardware.

You can break anything, but regular servicing and half a degree of mechanical sympathy will see a turbocharged car provide many years of trouble free running.

GT-spec15 · 10-06-2013, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieseltrain79

Sorry they were available through Lexus dealers , albeit 2nd hand but practically new .

This is off topic but pardon??

Lexus dealers sold 'near new' SC400s? No they did not. Those cars were only badged a Lexus in USA and I can quite confidently say that Australian Lexus dealerships did not sell rebadged Japanese Soarers.

SumoDog68 · 10-06-2013, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

The Lexus SC430 was not a Soarer in the same way that a Monaro is not a Pontiac GTO.
It was also not a turbo I6 like the one described earlier in this thread defending turbo longevity.

You can twist and turn your story as much you like but to the vast majority of car enthusiasts in Australia a soarer is a grey imported rwd camry looking Toyota and no amount of watching Fast and Furious repeats is going to change it.

I dont need to twist my "story" at all - JZ Soarer (grey import) is a great example of good turbo engine that has proven perfomance credentials and good reliability and has never looked like camry to me :-) but i obviously dont represent vast majority of car enthusiasts ...

GT-spec15 · 11-06-2013, 12:53 AM

The Soarer is a fantastic car, but their image is somewhat shot now that they are old, cheap, and all manner of clowns drive them.

The 1JZ twin turbo six is a sweet thing indeed, and those Toyota engines are bulletproof.

Cambo351 · 11-06-2013, 01:18 AM

Forced induction with smaller displacement is the way of the future, like it or lump it.

Check out my little review of the 1.0L Ecoboost Focus http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11391986

This is the sort of thing we will be driving in the future.

Let me give you an example from JLR's current line up.

Supercharged 5.0L V8 for the big gun.
Supercharged 3.0L V6, which replaces the 5.0L N/A motor
Turbocharged 2.0L I4, which replaces the old 3.0L V6 N/A motor
Turbocharged 4.4L V8 Diesel, previously the 3.6L TDV8
Turbocharged 3.0L V6 Diesel
Turbocharged 2.2L I4 Diesel

I see a trend forming there...AND a number of those engines, are actually Ford motors...