Diabetes: Discussion thread.

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by paule11

That's interesting know a farmer who I buy vegetables of he is huge ,does not eat vegetables but eats meat and most of the food he eats is protein drinks beer and his blood and cholesterol is really good.

Hello,
It is very interesting as I only weigh in now at 74?kg, when working and drinking was 65kg,but I worked really hard as a boilermaker, I think being active all day burns the excess sugar, at one point about 18 months ago I was 56kg, this really had my GP worried as I was living in a mouldy property, ended up with aspergillosis niger growing in my lungs then went invasive, its still affecting my body now!

But I really do believe if you have a very active job, lots of blood, sweat and tears compared to sitting all day then you have more chance of late onset T2 with the latter.

How many people had diabetes before WW1 and canned and preserved food came on the scene?..probably none, you can chart its onset yourself by looking at the food we eat and how often and the increase on the population and get a percentile figure.

I am unusual because I am pretty slim for my height,190cm.
T2 is normally overweight and under exercised caused, but overweight from the wrong choices in food and drink.
Too much sugar in soft drinks in younger and beer in older folk,both together destroys your liver and its ability to use the glycogen it has stored there,if you need sugar your liver releases it,if not it stays and you get " fatty liver " disease.

Its bloody complicated stuff for the layman, but our non diabetic ancestors were mostly laymen and laboured all day which I think burnt off the excess sugar/carbs, sure it was a hard life, but they were pretty hardy folk.

But insulin resistant is different to T1 diabetes, they make none at all, that's a big problem, but where did these diseases come from?..lifestyle changes?

I just finished reading the book about the Atom bomb tests at Monte Bello Islands and in the early 50's at Emu Field and Maralinga?
You don't really want to know about it, believe me you just don't want to know, the fallout I'm talking about, and where it went and what was affected, and still is!

But good luck to ya,I mean that


Regards Billy.

PS..2009 at diagnosis of T2 I weighed 85kg.
PPS.. My cholesterol ratio is 2.2..so go figure that out, oh I have not had any alcohol since Oct 2015.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

How many people had diabetes before WW1 and canned and preserved food came on the scene?..probably none, you can chart its onset yourself by looking at the food we eat and how often and the increase on the population and get a percentile figure.

I think many many things simply went undiagnosed years ago rather than only appeared after a certain time period or culture change.

[Vincenzo]

Looks interesting - will respond on weekend

Vinnie

[anobserver]

Originally Posted by b0son

Low carb diets simply mask the symptoms, they don't provide a cure. If you want to test whether you've actually been cured, eat carbs for a week and see how you feel and how your blood glucose responds.

There's a reason the majority of diabetes animal research models rely on high saturated fat diets to trigger T2D. It increases insulin resistance.

Thats the reverse of what other studies have found. I'd be reading the fine print to see what actually happened.

For instance, if it was sponsored by the likes of Kellogg and Graincorp, they may have used herbivores and ruminants as the test subjects.

[anobserver]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

.. insulin resistant is different to T1 diabetes, they make none at all, that's a big problem, but where did these diseases come from?..lifestyle changes?

I just finished reading the book about the Atom bomb tests at Monte Bello Islands and in the early 50's at Emu Field and Maralinga?
You don't really want to know about it, believe me you just don't want to know, the fallout I'm talking about, and where it went and what was affected, and still is!

But good luck to ya,I mean that


Regards Billy.

PS..2009 at diagnosis of T2 I weighed 85kg.
PPS.. My cholesterol ratio is 2.2..so go figure that out, oh I have not had any alcohol since Oct 2015.

Billy,

Pleased to hear that lchf is working very well for you, as it has for me.

I had no particular health issue but wanted to address typical middle aged malaise of slow weight gain and no energy. After seven years all my indicators still show good numbers.

The constant intake of sugar and grains has only been a relatively recent thing in human history. The anthropological record shows that human health declined once we entered the age of agriculture. Whilst the more constant supply of food enabled population increases, the bodily remains suggest we became shorter, suffered more disease, and had more dental caries with a higher intake of grains and plant foods.

The constant insulin releases required by eating processed grains and sugars likely contributes to the onset of insulin resistance. Each meal provokes a spike in insulin that over decades exhausts the pancreas ability to address.

I can't speak to t1, but from what I've read t2 can be highly responsive to significant dietary changes.

Friends and rellies that suffer from t2 mostly stick doggedly to the high carb, low fat thinking that has produced the most obese generation in modern history. As well as downing their statins and beta blockers, but that's another story.

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by prydey

I think many many things simply went undiagnosed years ago rather than only appeared after a certain time period or culture change.

Hello,
Before preservatives entered our lives we were healthier by a country mile,when you have a World War you need to feed troops, and the people who support the troops!

You can't give a fighting infantryman fresh wholesome food everyday,but they need protein and carbohydrates and saturated fats, just to keep the body alive and upright so it can fire a rifle.
Do you really think that the armed forces hierarchy "really cared" about a soldiers blood glucose or cholesterol?
Or did they just purchase the most long lasting junk/garbage food that kept them marching and vertical?

And grain fed beef is junkfood, cows chew the cud,they are designed with 3 stomachs to digest grass, they are fake food, any grain fed cow meat is not real its a money making venture, they are bred for profit not for taste, they add meat flavouring that tastes like grass fed meat!

Ever bought that really nice looking red/pink mince?
Its not supposed to be that colour, that's a chemical they add…

I am content in my assumption that a high saturated fat low carb diet is better and more condusive to the production of healthy kiddies!

Medium chain triglycerides out perform both short and long chain triglycerides.

Good luck and good health.

Regards Billy.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by anobserver

Thats the reverse of what other studies have found. I'd be reading the fine print to see what actually happened.

For instance, if it was sponsored by the likes of Kellogg and Graincorp, they may have used herbivores and ruminants as the test subjects.

There's no conspiracy. High fat diets are the standard trigger for T2D in rats (the most widely used animal model for diabetes research). Its very well established that high saturated fat increases insulin resistance.

Stop reading paleo blogs. They cherrypick the one study that supports their message, and ignore the rest of the body of research (marksdailyapple is a major offender).

[b0son]

Originally Posted by anobserver

The constant insulin releases required by eating processed grains and sugars likely contributes to the onset of insulin resistance. Each meal provokes a spike in insulin that over decades exhausts the pancreas ability to address.

And yet nobody preaches cutting out meat (protein produces an insulin response almost as high as sugar). Quite the opposite, people increase their protein consumption on a lot of diets, especially protein shakes. If it was all about insulin, this approach wouldn't work.

I can't speak to t1, but from what I've read t2 can be highly responsive to significant dietary changes.

Yes, namely reducing calories and getting rid of visceral fat (a major risk factor for T2D). I had the classic symptoms of early stage T2D, was overweight, poor insulin sensitivity, got the shakes when drinking soft drinks, etc. I started intermittent fasting, but still eating McD on pretty much every non-fasting day. The weight came off, the T2D symptoms went away.

Insulin is not the problem in most cases. Its the obesity. Treat that, and the insulin response improves.

[slowsnake]

Hello,
I am making a point not answering any particular poster here, but I was not obese, I was laid up with an injury and unable to really exercise,I tried the Siverchain WA diabetes plan and after getting the correct dosage of drugs followed their plan to a "T".
2 years on I was still the same as 2 years prior.

I did my own research in the library mainly and some online, and I came to the conclusion that the food "pyramid" was wrong, it needed to be inverted?
Why, well I decided to research the researchers, took me quite awhile too, and as a side note I do not and never have purchased Sanitarium branded products, or anything manufactured by GE USA.

The model for this particular "pyramid" was a well paid study financed by Sanitarium, it seemed to put products that Sanitarium manufactured at the top of the pyramid.
Other manufacturing companies also sell these same products usually grain or cereal's.

I worked out my my body really needs saturated fats ,or medium chain triglycerides, not trans fats or polyunsaturated fats, and it needed cholesterol!
Why,well whether you know it or not,your brain is made from cholesterol and your lungs from saturated fat!
Now why starve them of what sustains them,seems a bit futile to me.

When I started eating my new diet still taking Diabex XR at night and Januvia in the morning I was still unwell, but after 6 months I stated falling face first into my dinner plate, unconscious, people thought I was drunk, and I did not do my blood glucose before meals at night, if I did I would of found that my reading was around -4.5 and when I took my Diabex XR my blood glucose dropped to ( I was told this after regaining consciousness ) 2.3...wow, imagine being in the emergency unit in a hospital being asked why I was taking drugs for diabetes when I was not a diabetic!

I stopped my drugs and over 3 weeks I dropped 18 kg's to 66 kg's, my old working weight.

I still occasionally test my blood glucose levels, my GP does it every so often just to make sure I am cured, he can't believe what happened to me, but 2 weeks ago he did the 3 month test and its as usual under the prediabetes 5.9 reading, it hovers between 4.9 and 5.4, two weeks ago 5.1


Regards Billy.

[DFB FGXR6]

Type 1 Diabetes has it's challenges, but think it's important to point out that there is no reason for it stop someone from following their dreams aspirations.

As most will know, Jack Perkins was diagnosed with Type 1 very early in his V8 Supercar career, even hiding it to keep it from the sport's regulators. And yet, he has continued his career through appropriate diabetes management. I find it interesting that he, like me, does not like insulin pumps. That's sort of the opposite of what most people experience.

https://www.v8sleuth.com.au/jack-per...leuth-podcast/
https://www.v8sleuth.com.au/jack-per...leuth-podcast/

[prydey]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

At $92.50 each, substantiation cant come soon enough. Each sensor lasts only two weeks. I have been given two free ones to see if I like them.

Thanks for digging up this thread. Always good to chat about this stuff.

My kids have been on the libre sensors for a while now. We get two sensors free a month and they last 2 weeks each, so lasts basically until the next lot. I think for under 21 they are now subsidised and also if you have a health care card.

Hopefully you have access to free ones now??

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by prydey

Thanks for digging up this thread. Always good to chat about this stuff.

My kids have been on the libre sensors for a while now. We get two sensors free a month and they last 2 weeks each, so lasts basically until the next lot. I think for under 21 they are now subsidised and also if you have a health care card.

Hopefully you have access to free ones now??

I still don't qualify for free Libre sensors.

I have been told that there is a new generation sensor on the way, being able to provide more accurate predictive information.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Type 1 Diabetes has it's challenges, but think it's important to point out that there is no reason for it stop someone from following their dreams aspirations.

Very true. My eldest finished dux of her school, an ATAR of 93 or thereabouts, and is now in her 3rd year of Uni studying nutrition and dietetics. Her inspiration was her own dietitian in the paeds clinic. Having a goal early in life makes such a difference to how people tackle life. If you have a focus and commitment, nothing can stop you except yourself.

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

find it interesting that he, like me, does not like insulin pumps. That's sort of the opposite of what most people experience.

Interested to know what you don't like about pumps. I'm not diabetic myself, but both my kids wouldn't be without them. It offers them so much more freedom with how they manage their diabetes.

My youngest is due for a replacement pump. In case others aren't aware, pumps are only good for 4 years. If you have private health they are covered, but not all insurance companies will give a new one every 4 years, but we are with Bupa, and they do. Pumps are now well north of $10k so as we require 2 in this family, signing up for private health was a no brainer. Others just factor it in to their budget and save up.

We have been using medtronic, but there is a new player to australia, called a Tandem. Its been out a while in america but had a battery issue which caused the TGA to suspend its approval for use here. That has now been lifted https://www.tga.gov.au/alert/tandem-...2-insulin-pump

The Tandem have worked in tandem (no pun intended) with Dexcom who make CGM's so that their pump works in conjunction with the Dexcom G6 sensor and they talk to each other. The Dexcom is a great cgm and is more accurate than a manual finger *****, and is constantly in communication with the pump. This means it will suspend insulin delivery if the BGL is below a set target. This is one of the reasons we have held off for this pump to come back on the market as medtronic are not as good in this area. They have their CGM's but they aren't as good at communicating with the pump and have to be periodically calibrated and only last 7 days, compared to the Dexcom at 10 days. They also hurt to insert, where Dexcom and Libre do not.

From the point of view of a father with 2 kids who benefit greatly from pumps, it does intrigue me when i meet people that don't like them. The wife of a guy I ride with is also not a fan. She is a bit older though and pump technology is quite new, relatively speaking so some just don't like change and are very used to the way they have their system.

Hopefully I didn't send anyone to sleep. Its a topic that means a lot to me.

I've also been a big fan of Jack Perkins once i learned he was also T1D. I didn't care what brand he drove and he's actually a really nice guy.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

I still don't qualify for free Libre sensors.

I have been told that there is a new generation sensor on the way, being able to provide more accurate predictive information.

Interesting. My wife knows more about this side of things than me but that sucks for you. Hopefully there is a continual push in this area to improve. I know JDRF do quite a bit to keep funding being granted.

The Dexcom ones I mentioned in the above post are meant to be better than Libre as far as accuracy goes. They also can be read by more than one device, which is great for parents of T1D people. My daughters phone would be set up as the primary reader, but you can then have at least 2 'follower' devices connected as well, which means i can just look up the app on my phone and check her level. Obviously within bluetooth range, but this is helpful for us at the moment. At 12 years old she is growing and her body changing so pump settings are being regularly changed and it means i don't have to wander up to her room in the night to scan her, or do a finger *****, but can just check her level from my phone. Other families with young children really love that feature.

Dexcom are only good for 10 days though.
https://www.dexcom.com/en-AU

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by prydey

Interested to know what you don't like about pumps. I'm not diabetic myself, but both my kids wouldn't be without them. It offers them so much more freedom with how they manage their diabetes.

From the point of view of a father with 2 kids who benefit greatly from pumps, it does intrigue me when i meet people that don't like them. The wife of a guy I ride with is also not a fan. She is a bit older though and pump technology is quite new, relatively speaking so some just don't like change and are very used to the way they have their system.

.

I have had Diabetes since I was 6, about 29 years. For me, I don't know any different. I can only imagine how hard it would be diagnosed later in life and trying to adapt, in this case a pump goes a long way to making management much easier.

Because of how physically active I am, I don't like the idea of being connected to a pump. I manage good control from blood tests and injections and so have resisted the pump so far. I guess there is some fear of change on my part. As it is, I can always look to pumps when need arises.

It's important to note there is no blanket control of Diabetes, every person will react differently. For example, when the latest crop of long acting insulin's became available, my Endo at the time rushed me onto them. Now for most, this new med was a significant advancement in how a long acting insulin works, being more stable for longer. For me, being so physically active at work, it was just too aggressive and was causing me to have repeated hypos. In the end, I was reverted back to the older med that had a more pronounced peak, meaning it would be dropping off while I was active.

Thanks for the info, it was most certainly valuable and something I will continue to monitor. And also, I can only imagine how hard it would have been bringing up two children with Diabetes. I know how hard it was on my parents with me.

[prydey]

Thanks for the feedback regarding pumps. Makes sense. My eldest plays netball so takes the pump off while playing. The fact that she is exercising pretty much negates the lack of insulin for that period. I guess if you eventually slow down in life pumps may get another look in.

Do you use pens?

And yes, there are many different insulin types out there with different profiles.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by prydey

Thanks for the feedback regarding pumps. Makes sense. My eldest plays netball so takes the pump off while playing. The fact that she is exercising pretty much negates the lack of insulin for that period. I guess if you eventually slow down in life pumps may get another look in.

Do you use pens?

And yes, there are many different insulin types out there with different profiles.

I use disposable pens for Toujeo long acting, and a cartridge pen for fast acting. At one stage, I was so sensitive to insulin that I needed a pen with 0.5 unit increments.





I'm also using the new NovoFine Plus tips.

[DFB FGXR6]

When I was first diagnosed, this mean bastard was used for blood testing. Can you imagine trying to use that on a 6 year old -



And these were the machines -





These machines needed much larger blood samples than today's crop, needed regular calibrating and took forever to display a result.

[prydey]

My youngest started on pens as they don't like to put you straight on to a pump, and it takes time to organise a pump with insurance so for the first few months she had Lantis at night, for the Basal (long acting, 24 hours) and novorapid or something for the Bolus.

Pens are pretty easy to use and a lot better than back when you had to draw up your own insulin into a syringe and inject yourself.

Pumps just use a single type of short acting insulin (novorapid) and it just trickle feeds constantly in the background at the set amount, and then pumps more in when you tell it, each time you eat.

Its good that there are different methods and everyone doesn't have to conform to a fixed regime.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

When I was first diagnosed, this mean bastard was used for blood testing. Can you imagine trying to use that on a 6 year old -

image

And these were the machines -

image

image

These machines needed much larger blood samples than today's crop, needed regular calibrating and took forever to display a result.

Thats brutal. Yes, much better today.

[CoupeKing]

Clean Keto diet with prolonged fasting can reverse Some situations.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

Clean Keto diet with prolonged fasting can reverse Some situations.

Can't speak for type2, but that's not true for type 1. As mentioned back at the start, type 1 is an autoimmune disease. The pancreas stops producing insulin. This can't be reversed through diet or wishful thinking or any other Pete Evans type deal that people think up.

I realise you said 'some' situations and obviously meant no offense, but i just get a bit sensitive to those types of comments.

[CoupeKing]

Originally Posted by prydey

Can't speak for type2, but that's not true for type 1. As mentioned back at the start, type 1 is an autoimmune disease. The pancreas stops producing insulin. This can't be reversed through diet or wishful thinking or any other Pete Evans type deal that people think up.

I realise you said 'some' situations and obviously meant no offense, but i just get a bit sensitive to those types of comments.

Of course I meant type two.

Just like a fatty liver can be reversed in quick fashion as opposed to cirrhosis of the liver which is irreversible.

But you know what can reverse type 2 diabetes and/or a fatty liver?

''Clean Keto diet with prolonged fasting can reverse Some situations''

[b0son]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

''Clean Keto diet with prolonged fasting can reverse Some situations''

Any diet can. Doesnt need to be keto. It's the fasting that clears liver fat, not the foods you're allowed to eat on the diet.

[CoupeKing]

Originally Posted by b0son

Any diet can. Doesnt need to be keto. It's the fasting that clears liver fat, not the foods you're allowed to eat on the diet.

So I can fast for 2 days then go back to vegetable/seed oils, sugar, processed gains, alcohol, snacking in between meals, having smoothies with 9 oranges in it, Maggi crap, condiments, sports drinks and not have a fatty liver? I'm all for that.

Keto is not a diet, it's how our fore-fathers lived. I shouldn't have mentioned diet because diets never work (my mistake) - most crash and burn and end up putting on more weight.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

So I can fast for 2 days

No. You would be better off doing intermittent fasting as a way of life. One or two fasting days per week, or eating in a small 6-8hr window, skip breakfast, etc. The point is to deprive the liver of any food intake regularly to encourage it to use the fat.

then go back to vegetable/seed oils, sugar, processed gains, alcohol, snacking in between meals, having smoothies with 9 oranges in it, Maggi crap, condiments, sports drinks and not have a fatty liver? I'm all for that.

??? where did I say that? I said it's easy to get the liver to lose fat simply by eating less.

The mediterranean diet probably has the best clinical evidence as a healthy diet. Not really sure why you think the only alternative to keto is unhealthy eating.

Keto is not a diet, it's how our fore-fathers lived.

We've been eating grains for millennia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8

It's worth noting that *NONE* of the long-lived ethnic populations around the world eat keto diets. In fact, most of them eat a large proportion of carbs.

[prydey]

Anyone seeking to lose weight or change their diet to improve their situation, I would highly recommend getting advice from a doctor AND a dietitian, to suit YOUR situation and YOUR body.

Please don't believe everything you read on the internet regarding what the best diet is.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by prydey

Anyone seeking to lose weight or change their diet to improve their situation, I would highly recommend getting advice from a doctor AND a dietitian, to suit YOUR situation and YOUR body.

Please don't believe everything you read on the internet regarding what the best diet is.

I considered my diet healthy and exercise rate above average as I am a landscape gardener. As I got into my autumn years I had put on a bit of weight and my blood pressure was prehypertension.

My GP has practiced over 30 years and taught other GP's for 20 years. After much research he changed the way he treats diabetes and pre-diabetes - obesity / weight loss - fatty liver - high blood pressure - abnormal lipids.

I am sceptical about diets having watched friends yo-yo for years. I have never been on a diet in my life and always believed "all things in moderation" worked for me. After much encouragement from my GP I gave in and tried the low carbohydrate, healthy fat (LCHF) eating approach he prescribes.

I lost 15kgs and have kept it off for over a year. My blood pressure came back to normal levels, I also noticed other benefits like my chronic reflux disappeared. I am still sceptical about diets but can not deny what happened to me eating LCHF.

LCHF eating is not a fade diet and has good science behind the theory.

Dr Paul Mason, weight loss, insulin: https://youtu.be/wBsnk2PtPeo

Dr Paul Mason, cholesterol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXKJaQeteE0

Dr Jason Fung weight loss, insulin/hormonal theory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKC3hiyLeRc

A Ted talk that came up watching your link b0son https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da1vvigy5tQ

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

LCHF eating is not a fade diet and has good science behind the theory.

Yep, not disputing it. It's particularly helpful for those for whom simple weight reduction doesnt yield an improvement in insulin sensitivity.

I saw a BBC program with twin doctors IIRC, both a bit overweight. One did high carb, the other did LCHF. Both lost weight, but the one doing LCHF had far worse insulin sensitivity. LCHF doesnt necessarily improve your T2D, you've simply stopped consuming the nutrient that produces the symptoms. Fine if you want do LCHF forever, but if you dont?

Dr Paul Mason, weight loss, insulin:

The graph with low carb vs low fat weight loss, misleading because on low carb, you strip much of your body's glycogen reserves. And with that, around 2-3x that weight in water weight. Accounting for water loss, either eating regime gives about the same fat mass reduction.

The graph of mortality stats against saturated fat consumption also arent consistent with most other (much larger) studies. The Nurses Health study (nearly 100k participants) for example showed that replacing some calories with saturated fat increased all cause mortality, however, replacing them with unsaturated fats reduced mortality. So by all means eat fats, but eat good fats. Saturated fats arent good fats, and while nowhere near as bad as Keys said they are, it's worth being choosy.

Dr Jason Fung weight loss, insulin/hormonal theory

Fung isn't even worth discussing. A well-renowned quack who peddles misinformation to sell his books and diet products. So much wrong in that video. Ditto for people like Taubes and Lustig. Google their names and debunked. Nobody that does research in those fields takes them seriously. The insulin hypothesis has been widely discredited for years. Most of these guys simply dont understand basic metabolic chemistry and energetics.

Beware of looking for good science from those with a book to sell, or who can only espouse it on youtube rather than via peer review. As per Prydey, speak to a doctor or nutritionist.

[prydey]

Also worth remembering that not all type 2 people are overweight or have a poor diet.

There is no 'one size fits all' diet.

Diet also doesn't mean trying to lose weight. Diet is simply what we eat and drink.