Holden means a great deal to China

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by akiklovich

The build quality will never be the same because the chinese steel manufacturing plants are cheap as well.... It all starts from the raw materials. If they are not as good, the product made by them will be rubbish too.

As far as I understood, most big-name Yanky aftermarket crankshaft "manufacters" get all their raw forgings from China, and just send then back to the good-ole US-of-A for machining? As long as they get their processes correct and stick to them, there isn't really a reason why Chinese assembled products would be worse than "Western" assembled ones. The problem however seems to be corruption at govt/organisational levels .. everything is made as cheap as possible, regardless of safely, legal-issues, etc ..

Who really wants to say that a Chinese worker is less-capable than as Australia one? I'd doubt the average "Joe" slapping together Falcons in Broadmeadows is any more skilled than the average "Lee" slapping together Statesmans in Beijing ..

However I do not condone this. It's the continuing slide of Australia manufacturing. Aeronautics is basically gone, electronics is basically gone, now automotive is under threat. Then it will be heavy industry .. we'll be back to farming and tourism. Maybe Paul Keating was right?

[knighto42]

Trouble with China is consistency. Like BeStRaFe said above - it'll take them 6 goes to get it right and that shipment will be great. Then 2 shipments later quality goes down the toilet again.

[Bill_R]

Originally Posted by new2ford

One thing we might be overlooking here is that China is a communist country with a controlled economy and not subject to the same market forces - even though a form of controlled capitalism is practised where it suits them. I don't think they'll allow their competitive advantage to be lost. They'll be with us for a very long time.

that's a good pint. They seem to be allowign a lot in but the control might mean they set their own rules and can act independant of external market forces.

I think we have missed the boat with China and with our own developement. We should have been developing an ethanol and bio-diesel industry, implementing it and exporting the fuels, technology and possibly the vehicles.

[csv8]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

No its not, its a two generation old E-Class Merc

I was being sarscastic.!! This is what we could get as a Statesman if built in China. A Chairman !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have looked at one, I don't know who would buy one. Nearly the same price as a Statesman/Fairlane.
I Drive knob is an ashtray!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[xr8man83]

as long as ford dont do it it will be ok but it is a growing concern to see so many jobs going overseas

[TZENU]

I think what most people are worried about is 'quality control' more than anything

[Sapper]

Originally Posted by Danny

Is that meant to be a joke?

No its serious. China have awesome build quality nowadays. Not for everything they do but they do an awesome job for a lot of their manufacturing. Especially mechanical stuff.
When i was working as an engineering intern for an aussie manufacturing company, we spoke to people from europe who couldn't match the chinese machine's build quality. Yes there are some backyard companies that still produce crap but the organised industry can produce awesome quality work for a fraction fo the cost here. An example is that many American cars cannot be sold in China due to the emissions regulations being tougher in China.
For memory, the Chinese economy is no longer completely regulated by comunist practice. They have a hybrid system which is facilitating the massive economic boom they have there.

[GXL078]

No way, NEVER, I don't even like buying BIANTE etc that are made in China. China is a polluted hole. actually I wouldnt mind if they made HOLDENS in China as long as they kept them there along with the rest of the crap.

[ltd]

Holden already gets most of their stuff from Asia anyway. They used to get their plastics from LINPAC group, now they get it from south korea. On top of that, the steel price in Oz went through the roof and holden started getting their steel from china. As mentioned before, not the same quality and a hell of a lot of recycled dubious quality metal in there. You'd be surprised to learn just how much of the ve is from se asia. Actually come to think of it, the successor to the ve should be called SE, after SE Asia.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by hot xr6

No its serious. China have awesome build quality nowadays. Not for everything they do but they do an awesome job for a lot of their manufacturing. Especially mechanical stuff.

You're right hot xr6. From a lot of comments on this thread a lot of people don't understand China. Ironically a lot of technology we take for granted in the west was invented in China hundreds of years ago. Has anybody seen their awesome civil engineering? They're smart people, and fortunately non-aggressive so won't be such bad people to live alongside with so much economic power - even if it costs our own economy. Better than some obnoxious nation having such power.

Lets put Chinese quality in perspective. Firstly a few decades of hard ideological communism and the cold war undermined quality/innovation in countries that were technologically clever such as China and Czechoslovakia. They were sheltered from the competitive forces of capitalism and their industries became complacent and starved of ideas and incentive. Now that these countries have reconnected to the global economy and ideas everything is turning around. The Czechs went straight to the front because they are a small country/ quick to restructure and now Skoda for example (once a communist joke) is regarded as the best quality car brand in the world after Lexus. Same thing will be happening in China (much bigger elephant to get moving) as they gain experience from joint manufacturing ventures with western countries (including some rampant plagiarism unfortunately).

I believe China has now just lapped Germany as the third biggest motor vehicle manufacturer in the world after US and Japan. (Also a case of China going up passing Germany going down in the opposite direction I think!) So don't resist the inevitable and it won't be so bad quality-wise in the long term. More a case of working out how best Australia can restructure to well-position itself in this global economy.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by ltd

You'd be surprised to learn just how much of the ve is from se asia. Actually come to think of it, the successor to the ve should be called SE, after SE Asia.

You'd be surprised to learn how many parts coming in from asia go into the Falcon. But sourced through a middleman in Austaralia so it's considered Australian content.

Also some of the stuff that comes out of China is good quality but it also comes at a price.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

As long as we all purely buy on ticket price there is no hope for the future of our kids and country.... Are we patriotic enough to turn our backs on this kind of business pratice??

Perhaps if we had a domestic offering that didnt consider 15L/100km a headline fuel consumption figure?

What's the bread and butter offering from GMH and Ford? A 35 thousand dollar gas gussler weighing in at about 1800kg.

Im over 4, 5 and 6 litre engines. So is our planet.

And what are the domestic manufacturers cramming down my throat when i walk into the dealership?

It's not the 2 litre.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

I think that the main point here is the fact that even more Ozzie manafacturing jobs look like going over seas. Perhaps someone could please explain to me how this is a good thing. How the hell will holden "the aussie icon" ever live down being biult in China??

I know that most here on this forum would not go out of their way to buy a holden, but how many more Australians will be thinking the same thing. As long as we all purely buy on ticket price there is no hope for the future of our kids and country.... Are we patriotic enough to turn our backs on this kind of business pratice??

Anyway. I dont reckon that it will happen. Perhaps holden have some AWA negotiations coming up and are putting fear into their workers.

Id say its simply economics, its relatively too expensive to manufacture in Australia compared to O/S, the Australian dollar is too high as well.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Perhaps if we had a domestic offering that didnt consider 15L/100km a headline fuel consumption figure?

What's the bread and butter offering from GMH and Ford? A 35 thousand dollar gas gussler weighing in at about 1800kg.

Im over 4, 5 and 6 litre engines. So is our planet.

And what are the domestic manufacturers cramming down my throat when i walk into the dealership?

It's not the 2 litre.

I will never be over 4, 5, or 6 litre engines. My 5.4 litre will happily return 11.5 at 140 kph, with the family on board, in comfort. That statement of mine can be applied to Chinese cars or American oranges. As a nation we are bargain hunting ourselves onto thin ice.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

How are they ******* over Australian workers? The way I see it is that they are creating Aussie workers with this deal. Holden exports are only going to rise with this, more cars, whether they be complete or not, means more jobs here.
Last time I looked Ford was the only one cutting jobs. :rolleyes:
Its not like they were exporting complete WMs and suddenly decided to change to just exporting the parts, this is a new deal, meaning more jobs, not less.

Yeah well havemore local jobs manufacturing overseas,and if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle..

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by repsol

the barina for example take a car that wasnt selling well here rebadge it to holden barina and up the price and it is selling,i would however like to see the sales figures of the previous model and compare.







Rep

It wouldnt matter if the car was the same 100% just rebaged, They trust 2 things about holden and not daewoo.
1: The name.
2: Deawoo was almost gone and started too get the poor 380 treatment you cant trust buying a car if the car company is going under what about my warranty's etc. Now with holden that same car is better backed up if anything goes wrong they are covered.

Originally Posted by vztrt

You'd be surprised to learn how many parts coming in from asia go into the Falcon. But sourced through a middleman in Austaralia so it's considered Australian content.

Also some of the stuff that comes out of China is good quality but it also comes at a price.

Too right, Bought in from overseas and then bought off the buyer that originally bought it form OS. Looks all good on the sticker oz made:P

Every single part of my pc is from OS. But i bought the parts from a Aussie Supplier and fitted them myself. It's Aussie owned and made;).

[ltd]

Originally Posted by vztrt

You'd be surprised to learn how many parts coming in from asia go into the Falcon. But sourced through a middleman in Austaralia so it's considered Australian content.

Also some of the stuff that comes out of China is good quality but it also comes at a price.

Actually mate, no. Falcon has the vast majority of all its plastics done in Australia. Linpac have a massive plant next door to ford in broadmeadows, and they also have a whole range of polypropylene components made in minto and other locations around oz. I spoke to the rep from viscount plastics (part of the linpac group) on Friday last week, and he told me that things had slowed down due to the commodore and china.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by ltd

Actually mate, no. Falcon has the vast majority of all its plastics done in Australia. Linpac have a massive plant next door to ford in broadmeadows, and they also have a whole range of polypropylene components made in minto and other locations around oz. I spoke to the rep from viscount plastics (part of the linpac group) on Friday last week, and he told me that things had slowed down due to the commodore and china.

Minto?? isn't that in QLD. Or does Vic have a minto as well???

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Slick_Aussie

Too right, Bought in from overseas and then bought off the buyer that originally bought it form OS. Looks all good on the sticker oz made:P

Every single part of my pc is from OS. But i bought the parts from a Aussie Supplier and fitted them myself. It's Aussie owned and made;).

Thats overly simplistic.
Ford have a "just in time" policy in regards to stocks for a lot of their plastics, and moulding is usually a week for a production run of say 2500 bumpers, shipping them from china can take up to 3 months and as such is not an option with these extensive delays. Holden have a substantial export market and are able to pre-empt X amount of cars and order enmasse accordingly. Furthermore, look at the Australian Standardised date stamp, it will be look like 3 little clocks with an arrow pointing to a number. China does their date stamps differently with an actual digit or in some cases, no stamp at all. Even better yet, chinese moulds will often have an actual model number on them in chinese numerals and digits.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Minto?? isn't that in QLD. Or does Vic have a minto as well???

Nah mate, Minto in NSW - just near campbelltown.

[Wally]

From drive.com.au

Sending the SS to the USA to replace the ageing front-wheel-drive Grand Prix would extend Holden and Pontiac’s relationship, established when the Monaro was exported to the USA as a GTO from late 2003. That deal has only just expired.

But Mooney was also adamant that such a plan would depend on the demand for VE and WM in the domestic and established export markets. The Elizabeth assembly plant in South Australia has a capacity of about 145,000 cars per year. He does not expect spare capacity for the first 12 months of VE’s life.

“We have to wait and see how this car goes. If we had the available capacity then we’d be looking at the US as a potential market.

While built-up exports to the USA are no more than a plan at the moment, both VE and WM will be sent from the Elizabeth assembly plant to the Middle East as Chevrolets.

The WM will be sold as a Buick Royaum in China, but will be sent in a ‘CKD’ (completely knocked-down) pack to be assembled on-site. It will also be exported to Korea and sold there as a Daewoo.

The short wheelbase SS-V or an even more sporty Holden Special Vehicles version will go to the UK in extremely limited numbers, replacing the out-of-production Monaro.

Cars are also being sent to Opel in Europe for evaluation. But Mooney is dubious about a positive reception there.

The export of built-up cars is a separate deal to Holden’s role as a developer of the rear-wheel-drive architecture that makes it s debut underpinning VE and WM. That will be used by a number of future vehicles to be manufactured in Asia and the USA as well as Australia

[banarcus]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

As a nation we are bargain hunting ourselves onto thin ice.

There are plenty of people in this country with this attitude. Even though there are plenty of once Australian owned companies, most that exist now belong to overseas corporations but still employ Australian workers such as Holden does. Australia once had a very strong manufacturing industry(compared to today's) where Australian workers could earn a living. The love of getting a bargain in this country is now bleeding the Australian worker in industries where the quality of the product is better than ever!

How many people here would buy an Australian made Electrolux product such as Westinghouse, Simpson, Dishlex etc? Just another manufacturer, just like Holden, Ford and Toyota that build products here and employ Australians but for how much longer?

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by banarcus

There are plenty of people in this country with this attitude. Even though there are plenty of once Australian owned companies, most that exist now belong to overseas corporations but still employ Australian workers such as Holden does. Australia once had a very strong manufacturing industry(compared to today's) where Australian workers could earn a living. The love of getting a bargain in this country is now bleeding the Australian worker in industries where the quality of the product is better than ever!

How many people here would buy an Australian made Electrolux product such as Westinghouse, Simpson, Dishlex etc? Just another manufacturer, just like Holden, Ford and Toyota that build products here and employ Australians but for how much longer?

Funny you should mention Electrolux banarcus (a Swedish co. by the way but manufactures here). Our wall oven went and we replaced it with a Westinghouse, partly on comments from electricians/repairers who said that with some of the fancy European brands people get now, when they break down they can end up without a stove for 3 months while the spare part is sourced in Europe, the distributer in Perth or wherever insists on payment in advance etc etc. A strong analogy with the situation with cars - probably not as bad but a sign of what its like living off imports. Childrens toys now you can't get any ability to expand sets, add parts etc because it all comes from China as one offs. Gone are the days of the meccano type toys where you buy one base item and build on it for years.

I think the issue with China manufacture will not be quality but adjusting to the inconveniences and costs of imports - and of course the loss of jobs.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by ltd

Thats overly simplistic.
Ford have a "just in time" policy in regards to stocks for a lot of their plastics, and moulding is usually a week for a production run of say 2500 bumpers, shipping them from china can take up to 3 months and as such is not an option with these extensive delays. Holden have a substantial export market and are able to pre-empt X amount of cars and order enmasse accordingly. Furthermore, look at the Australian Standardised date stamp, it will be look like 3 little clocks with an arrow pointing to a number. China does their date stamps differently with an actual digit or in some cases, no stamp at all. Even better yet, chinese moulds will often have an actual model number on them in chinese numerals and digits.

I can't speak chinese But holden holden have too build more cars so i guess they need too stock pile at times, Maybe bulk buying is cheaper.

I'm interested in you opinion on the price cutting of the BFII range and it's impact on the BA-BF resale, Do you think it's killed it and what would the boor bugger that just spent $50,000 on a XR8 feel right now.
I was mad when i bought a Samsung DVD player in 2000 for $600 and my mate went too the same place and bought one the same 4 weeks later for $400 :

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

That statement of mine can be applied to Chinese cars or American oranges. As a nation we are bargain hunting ourselves onto thin ice.

Well there's no need to get bogged down in the comparative advantages etc etc etc, because it can be discussed at a practical level.

Bargain hunting ourselves into thin ice, whilst being an apt comment... is perhaps a little melodramatical. Strip away the undertone and look at what you're saying there.

Some imported goods are cheaper than equivalent goods we produce domestically.

So, you're suggesting that i should be paying $3 for an australian widget that i can get overseas for $1.50?

Look, it's a nice thought. But you cant sit here and preach what's "wrong" and "right" to a consumer. It's irrelevant, because all that matters is how people WILL behave. Most people want to get the most bang for their buck. You cant dictate the actions of the majority in order to benefit a certain sector, industry or company.

Hell yes, if we continue down the current path... we're in trouble. Foreign companies will not only have a say in the market place but will also have political influence and an impact on the direction of our country. Now THAT would be a bannana republic.

That's not to say we cant survive. But we need to be a little more dynamic than 'forcing' people to buy domestic goods.

Quality is the obvious thing that comes to mind. If we can keep making a better product than what's coming out of, say, china... then there's a definite advantage there.

That is to say - focus on making a domestic product that australians want to buy, as opposed to focusing on stopping them from buying OS. Better yet - make something that has a comparative advantage OS and will sell there. Beat the buggers at their own game but with a different play (uranium a good example). I guarantee that approach has a much longer term horizon. Dont try and unravel the global marketplace - let's use it to our advantage.

Protection will see us move backwards. Let's focus on innovation and move forwards, with the rest of the world.

[Homer1]

Originally Posted by Hally

I think people are under the mis-conception that the Chinese made cars are going to be sent back to Australia. It is not the case, the cars are for local Chinese/Asia consumption. As some-one else said, unlikely to effect Aussie jobs negatively.

Thats true. Merc, BMW and VW/Audi all have factories in China which make cars for thier own market only.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Slick_Aussie

I can't speak chinese But holden holden have too build more cars so i guess they need too stock pile at times, Maybe bulk buying is cheaper.

I'm interested in you opinion on the price cutting of the BFII range and it's impact on the BA-BF resale, Do you think it's killed it and what would the boor bugger that just spent $50,000 on a XR8 feel right now.
I was mad when i bought a Samsung DVD player in 2000 for $600 and my mate went too the same place and bought one the same 4 weeks later for $400 :

In regards to the price cutting, I think ford were caught in a bad situation where cutting would cost resale value, and not cutting would cost sales by way of giving Holden a price advantage. I guess at the end of the day they crunched the numbers and thought that the option to cost cut would cause the least amount of damage.

As for the plastics you are right, Holden can stock pile some of their parts, and a larger volume means a better price. I'd dare say that the plastics company they use has a number of clauses stipulated on their supply contract which forces compliance on delivery date, price fluctuations etc so as to not catch Holden out. For a large plastics company in China Holden would be a salesmans dream. Essentially, Holden would mean about 1 and a half billion dollars a year in sales if every car used $1000.00 worth of plastics.

[charles_wif_xf]

Originally Posted by Polyal

No why?

The Chinese built car wasn't so much a lack of build quality, it was probably design failure.

Obviously I don't know for sure, but its really not that hard to manufacturer something in another country. GM/Ford would make sure that it meets standards.

Right now the vast majority of things we buy are "Made in China", all multinationals do it.

I don't think you will ever see a car designed and developed in China (I hope not), but manufacturing is very possible and will happen.

Its only in the past few years that Hyundai could be taken seriously, it takes time to develop those skills.

And the "quality" shows with all the crap coming out of China. Case in point (although not car related) is computer motherboards. As of late, 99% of the motherboards available here are made in China. 18 months ago, most were made in Taiwan and Korea. 18 months ago, we used to have 1 in 300 DOA boards and hardly any deaths within the warranty periods. Now, we are up to 40% DOA and shifloads of dead boards within warranty periods (which by the way is now down to 6 months on some boards).

My point is when the multinationals pay peanuts, they get monkeys.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by ltd

In regards to the price cutting, I think ford were caught in a bad situation where cutting would cost resale value, and not cutting would cost sales by way of giving Holden a price advantage. I guess at the end of the day they crunched the numbers and thought that the option to cost cut would cause the least amount of damage.

As for the plastics you are right, Holden can stock pile some of their parts, and a larger volume means a better price. I'd dare say that the plastics company they use has a number of clauses stipulated on their supply contract which forces compliance on delivery date, price fluctuations etc so as to not catch Holden out. For a large plastics company in China Holden would be a salesmans dream. Essentially, Holden would mean about 1 and a half billion dollars a year in sales if every car used $1000.00 worth of plastics.

Be alright if holden and ford got there plastics from the same place group discount.

[GXL078]

I used to go out of my way to buy Australian made products, until I bought a pair of Rivers shoes and saw how crap they were. Got my money back and couldn't find a pair anywhere that were glued together properly. Now I only buy made in China Colorados and they last for years.