Car industry subsidies in news again...

[Luke Plaizier]

Here's someone taking a stab that 100,000 was the viable number. It's not clear if that's the journalist making that guess, or if it comes from who he is interviewing. Take it as a possible number anyway.

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...110-1psav.html


Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by tweeked

We are just too stupid and not brave enough to do something similar.

But we do. It's called the Luxury Car Tax.


Lukeyson

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

But we do. It's called the Luxury Car Tax.


Lukeyson

The cars that are killing our vehicle industry do not fall into this tax regime

As I said, we are stupid

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by johnydep

There is not enough money in manufacturing for every country to do the same thing.

Intellectual patents is where the money is, followed by the service industry.

Take APPLE as an example; the company builds nothing in the US, yet it is one of the worlds richest companies. It pays someone in China $1 an hour to manufacture, and pays it's US designers and service industry exceptionally well.

Last year the US registered 75% of the worlds patents.

We can keep using our Tax dollars to fund companies and watch them go the way Leyland, Chrylser, Nissan and Mitsubishi went. This will only last while there is money available to allocate, if we run into severe financial difficulty the money will be gone and we will be left in with very few options.

Or we can think smarter and look at better ways to spend our Taxes to ensure that we maintain our exceptional way of life, and stay ahead of competing countries.

We need industry that can innovate, invent and design new products and services for the world. We also need an industry that can service these products and ideas across the world. Get that into place, then we can subsidise important industry that find it hard to compete out in the world.

Holden for recent years was the biggest Research and Development spender for a private company in Australia...

If that doesnt amount to an 'important industry' nothing will.

[mr smith]

Let the oversaes fat cat auto companies PO and start investing in smart companies that can value add to everyone.
Im thinking design and manufacture of quality public transport systems for a start.
Problem is we need real leaders and thats some thing we dont have.

And that said, I work on the side of a major auto manufacturer and I am constantly disgusted in the way money, time and resources are wasted. I would be interested in any comments from auto workers here (and if looking beyond their own interests) what their thoughts are, the way these companies conduct their businesses do they deserve any hand outs?

[jpd80]

Meh, it cuts both ways, stupid Ford should have introduced 2.7 V6 diesel into Territory
and Falcon five years ago, imagine where we would be now with those two products.....

[prydey]

hindsight is always 20/20

[Luke Plaizier]

Ouch. Yes, the truth hurts there. We all wish that. Same goes now with not having Diesel in the Falcon.

Actually, I wonder what life would be like today if Polites had had his way and the I6 had been dieselified as he'd wanted....?


Lukeyson

[prydey]

there is no way of knowing whether diesel in falcon would make a difference. ford can't afford to be a pioneer into this segment and have it fail. most likely it would just replace a few petrol sales.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by tweeked

Cant wait till wee get some cheap Economists available from India, it will be gold when our professional academics that have never worked outside of the education system and that pride themselves on telling us how it all works that they have been retrenched as they are no longer financially competitive.

So true...I remember telling one desk jockey in the financial sector that one day his job will go overseas and he will lose his $200k + bonus and he laughed replying it will never happen...I was a little frustrated at his arrogance and said, I get my fingernails dirty actually making something in this country and that if manufacturing dies here it would never come back. His job just needs a computer and access to internet, what makes him feel so secure that his "analytical expertise" was so unique to him or couldn't be replicated by someone else anywhere in the world...lets just say he doesn't work in the same field anymore and his banking bretheren are also on notice even though they are making massive profits.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Holden for recent years was the biggest Research and Development spender for a private company in Australia...

If that doesnt amount to an 'important industry' nothing will.

How much did they spend?

Actually, thinking about this; maybe that's why the Button Plan (Hawke/Keating government) tried to get companies to amalgamate? Holden & Toyota tried it for a bit, but both companies wanted to be the boss company. Now both companies are Australia's biggest automotive exporters.

Ford thought about being a full importer of vehicles; remember the Taurus? That was meant to be a Falcon replacement.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Meh, it cuts both ways, stupid Ford should have introduced 2.7 V6 diesel into Territory
and Falcon five years ago, imagine where we would be now with those two products.....

Yes, major stuff up!

Go back to my early threads in the Territory section, there's a poll on what people preferred. There were overseas markets looking at the Territory, but the petrol engine was too thirsty for them.

This is a typical example of our problems; we build an excellent product, but can't be stuffed finishing it of for OS markets.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

hindsight is always 20/20

Edit,
My 20/20 hindsight is due to another's (Gorman) lack of vision...

People had been asking for a diesel Territory since its introduction,
Geoff Polities was furious when Tom Gorman cancelled it.
Large cars are different to other car segment, they have the weight
to reap real benefits from using an efficient diesel, just like Mid sized SUVs.

[ End of rant]

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Holden for recent years was the biggest Research and Development spender for a private company in Australia...

If that doesnt amount to an 'important industry' nothing will.

Yep, that is true for a big portion of time. However, for the last 3 years Ford Australia has been the biggest R & D investor in Australia. Comprehensively out investing everyone including GM Holden.

That investment has been in facilities and also
* FG2 Falcon with LPi and EcoBoost
* SZ Territory with Diesel
* Global T6 Ranger,
* Upcoming T6 SUV,
* Indian Figo
* An as yet unreleased Chinese market vehicle.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Large cars are different to other car segment, they have the weight
to reap real benefits from using an efficient diesel, just like Mid sized SUVs.

[ End of rant]

i don't disagree but currently there are no large sedans with diesel in falcons price range. a diesel would attract a premium as well. it would be a big gamble, something ford can't afford to do right now. with ecoLPi and ecoboost, diesel would just tread on the toes of existing products. the public may be more accepting of diesel, but lpg and ecoboost are already there.

any idea what the % of petrol v diesel sales of mondeo are? or focus? obviously territory is largely in favour of diesel but thats what people buy in that segment.

anyway, these discussions are a bit off topic.

i still believe the govt should be protecting our auto industry. i think one of the biggest negatives in the industry is the media itself. there should be much more accountability.

why do they get away with reporting that ford have received over $100m when in fact over $50 of that is from ford themselves. it shouldn't be allowed. it just skews public perception even further.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

why do they get away with reporting that ford have received over $100m when in fact over $50 of that is from ford themselves. it shouldn't be allowed. it just skews public perception even further.

Especially when it's tied to the "bail out" clanger.....

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by prydey

i don't disagree but currently there are no large sedans with diesel in falcons price range.

Well, I see Diesel in Hyundais, Mercedes, BMW, Mini, VW, even the Cruze for heavens sake. The market is replete with Diesel variants proving successful.

But, there are no successful Liquid Injected LPG RWD large sedans in the market. That would be a pretty big risk.

I also don't see any 4 Cyl RWD large sedans in the market. There's another big risk. UNLESS Thailand has another tax that is in effect that hits the 2.7 V6TD Falcon but not the 2.0 I4T.

Unless we're comparing one risk against the other and measuring the percentages, I'm not sure I get the gist of the 'it's too risky' argument. I do understand the price premium though.....


Lukeyson

[jpd80]

The large mid sized cars have either diesel option or a Hybrid, A diesel option in a Falcon wouldn't be a big stretch.

[2011G6E]

I suppose we could go back to the "good old days" when the Australian car industry was heavily protected by import duties and big tariffs on them damn foreign cars, and had bucketoads of taxpayers dollars poured down its gullet in subsidies every time a union threatened a strike or to order thier members to vote for the opposition, which made the car makers here get lazy because they knew damn well they were playing to a captive audience who was trickle fed any old slapped together under-equipped rubbish and loved it because it was dinky-di all-Aussie fair dinkum!

Good times, good times...

[1TUFFUTE]

what a stupid argument....as if theyll let them die in aus without a fight. Car industry is in the top ten still i think for aus big earners....so thatd be a good move hey......and thats where the term bailout should be fined when its wrong

[Struggo]

Side note: Many whinge about looking after Australian jobs, yet we give $4.5 billion in foreign aid.

The place has gone nuts!!!

[Jason[98.EL]]

gday all was looking through the addy this morning and come across this



a sort of good news thing for ford and geelong

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by Mad_Pom

There is no money to be had in export with our relative cost of manufacturing resources, when compared to the local region, compounded with the strength of the Australian dollar and the huge amounts of tax relief and incentives offered around the region.

In my opinion the options are to co-invest or let it die.

Our vehicles will not sell overseas when subject to import tarrifs. Case in point is the VE Commodore. Australia has a FTA with Thailand, we import vehicles from them, yet the Commodore is subject to an import tarriff due to engine size? That being the case, Australia should subject vehicles from Thailand to an obscure tarriff.

FTA is a fraud, it disadvantages Australian exports. Our government does nothing to assist local exporters.

[mik]

yes quite amusing when our pollies tell us we should "try harder, be the clever country, exports are the answer!" when in fact they know dam well we don`t have a hope in hell with the flood of imports, when i was in and out of the wharfs some years ago as a truckie the imports was the bulk of work, the amount of stuff coming into this country is huge , the exports was bugger all by comparison.
actually a bloke(an American) on the idiot box was talking economics about the unfair tariffs china puts on american cars....... from memory 25% and the tariffs on chinese vehicles coming into US was either 2 or 5% ,
i don`t know what our deal is but no doubt it would be similar, how long can this go on?

[aualright]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Oh well, you gotta hand it to Mr Carr. If all the stuff you talk has amounted to nothing, then you resort to the final step of back peddling as fast as you can.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-2...s-carr/3789832

I think you need to be a little more objective. I still can't work out if you are against assistance, or are merely representing the Tories.

I only wish I could find your posts when these discussions regarding govt assistance were being had when your blue team were in. Unfortunately you weren't a member then.

Perhaps after the next election, then? That's when we'll see your true colours.

Meanwhile, let us try and take each handout at its merits, as Pommie has done.

Maybe you can comment on the assistance given to ethanol producers?

****

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by mik

i don`t know what our deal is but no doubt it would be similar, how long can this go on?

I reckon when the Trans Pacific Partnership builds up critical mass, as more and more countries join in, there will be sufficient countries able to put pressure on China to open up it's trade borders or face restrictions on what they allowed to export to other countries.

Power in numbers....


Lukeyson

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

Our vehicles will not sell overseas when subject to import tarrifs. Case in point is the VE Commodore. Australia has a FTA with Thailand, we import vehicles from them, yet the Commodore is subject to an import tarriff due to engine size? That being the case, Australia should subject vehicles from Thailand to an obscure tarriff.

FTA is a fraud, it disadvantages Australian exports. Our government does nothing to assist local exporters.

What's wrong with putting a smaller engine in?

Edit: Sorry, working of iPad & don't know what happened.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

Our vehicles will not sell overseas when subject to import tarrifs. Case in point is the VE Commodore. Australia has a FTA with Thailand, we import vehicles from them, yet the Commodore is subject to an import tarriff due to engine size? That being the case, Australia should subject vehicles from Thailand to an obscure tarriff.

FTA is a fraud, it disadvantages Australian exports. Our government does nothing to assist local exporters.

What's wrong with putting a smaller engine in?

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

Our vehicles will not sell overseas when subject to import tarrifs. Case in point is the VE Commodore. Australia has a FTA with Thailand, we import vehicles from them, yet the Commodore is subject to an import tarriff due to engine size? That being the case, Australia should subject vehicles from Thailand to an obscure tarriff.

FTA is a fraud, it disadvantages Australian exports. Our government does nothing to assist local exporters.

What's wrong with putting a smaller engine in?

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by F6 Concorde

Our vehicles will not sell overseas when subject to import tarrifs. Case in point is the VE Commodore. Australia has a FTA with Thailand, we import vehicles from them, yet the Commodore is subject to an import tarriff due to engine size? That being the case, Australia should subject vehicles from Thailand to an obscure tarriff.

FTA is a fraud, it disadvantages Australian exports. Our government does nothing to assist local exporters.

What's wrong with putting a smaller engine in?

EDIT: Sorry, working of iPad & don't know what happened.