Current review of TAFE system.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

Do you have prove your ability to do your job annually to hold your job? We do!

Yes, on a daily basis or we get fired for underperforming

Looking at how you react I see you don't work in the TAFE sales department because most people and businesses welcome constructive feedback.

You've had multiple students from various eras and a recent prior employer give feedback and you've gone out blindly defending the institution like a cult.

Do you teach Certificate III in Catholic Studies?

[Trevor 57]

Anyway, it is has been interesting reading all the TAFE experts on here, none of which actually work for a TAFE so have absolutely no idea what goes on inside the TAFE system.

I bet you would love it if I delved into your job and employer and ripped it to bits with little to no knowledge of how it really operates

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Yes, on a daily basis or we get fired for underperforming

really, jesus I see under-performing people every day in jobs they shouldn't hold, and so you if you are truthful

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Looking at how you react I see you don't work in the TAFE sales department because most people and businesses welcome constructive feedback.

Most of the rubbish above, including yours is not constructive, it is destructive - go back and have a read

I wouldn't be debating constructive feedback. Most of what is above is written with references to 'years ago' and with absolutely NO knowledge of how the system works

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Do you teach Certificate III in Catholic Studies?

personal attacks just lowers your credibility

I have had a lot of respect for your comments over the years posting here and other places - but you are losing the plot

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

You've had multiple students from various eras and a recent prior employer give feedback and you've gone out blindly defending the institution like a cult.

and how do you expect ME to change it

All I am doing is pointing out FACTS, of course there have been under-performing people working at TAFE's over the years, are management and Government aware of that - absolutely!!!

My TAFE is currently undertaking a HUGE overhaul of systems and people

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

really, jesus I see under-performing people every day in jobs they shouldn't hold, and so you if you are truthful

Most of the rubbish above, including yours is not constructive, it is destructive - go back and have a read

I wouldn't be debating constructive feedback. Most of what is above is written with references to 'years ago' and with absolutely NO knowledge of how the system works

'Years' ago? 2010-2015? Charlie was putting apprentices through until he said **** it, sold up and left the country

Interesting you claim that teachers now have to prove that they're 'industry current' - imagine if that was the requirement from the start? Who'd have thought you shouldn't have had two bit leeches 'teaching'.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

and how do you expect ME to change it

All I am doing is pointing out FACTS, of course there have been under-performing people working at TAFE's over the years, are management and Government aware of that - absolutely!!!

My TAFE is currently undertaking a HUGE overhaul of systems and people

It's everyone else's fault except mine and it's just all too hard - OK

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Interesting you claim that teachers now have to prove that they're 'industry current' - imagine if that was the requirement from the start? Who'd have thought you shouldn't have had two bit leeches 'teaching'.

not "claim", it is a fact

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

It's everyone else's fault except mine and it's just all too hard - OK

You get a job at your local TAFE and change the whole system - let me know how you go

Trust me, I make a lot of noise within my TAFE, they know who I am. In fact one the **** processes is changing soon because of the noise I made - but you know all that because you are the FF oracle!


cya

[Charliewool]

My perspective is based on the standard of apprentice that the TAFE system has been spitting out over the last 10 or 12 years, which is sub-standard.
I compare this with tradesmen that came through the previous Tech School system.
Unless an employer is willing to devote at least an equal number of hours to what is “taught” at TAFE in the basics, the kid has no hope.
The theory side seems to still be taught, but the practical side is vastly lacking compared to years back.
Possibly this can also be attributed to a lack of equipment (funding?)
The machining apprentice of years past was proficient at screw-cutting, gear design and machining of, as well as basic tool & jig making.
(I, as well as most “older” apprentices still have their old school screw-cutting exercise collecting dust somewhere!)
I’ll reiterate... If the employer doesn’t spend a huge amount of time training a kid, he won’t be a tradesman’s bum-hole!

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

I’ll reiterate... If the employer doesn’t spend a huge amount of time training a kid, he won’t be a tradesman’s bum-hole!

so, you are telling me that in days gone past bosses NEVER EVER trained their apprentices, NEVER EVER stuck them with another tradie, or even a first year with a 4th year - NEVER EVER - it was all done by trade school - really????????

[.:4:.]

From the apprenticeship TAFE perspective (im an electrician), the theory side is theory, the prac is not so much about teaching apprentices how to do things per say, its a lot to do with proving competancy in things that should be taught on site by a tradesman. Ive had fresh 1st years and im not exactly going to say they cannot strip a cable untill tafe shows them how. Ive also had a few apprentices that other tradesmen reckon are crap, yet havent spent any time training them up at all, just get out of the way youre too slow kind of attitude. Its a poor attitude. No one is instantly good at everything. Whenever i get an apprentice i have not worked with i sit them down and explain that their job is not to do my job, its not to make my job any easier, its to learn and make jobs run quicker. Also unless its a major stuff up, i make them try work it out, if they cannot, i tell them whats wrong, but theyre fixing it, not me. That way they learn something and next time they typically get it right. Its the apprentices who spend their time under tradesmen who dont teach who become the under experienced tradesmen. I had a 2nd year ask me not long ago about wiring a new circuit i to a switch board. The board was dead, i got him to proove it for himself then instead of showing him, explained what to do whilst he did it. You can watch somebody all you like, but you learn a lot more a lot faster actually doing it with some guidance. Plus i also ask a lot about why things are done in certain ways. Because so and so said thats how you do it isnt a good enough answer.

Anyhow, when i was at tafe all those years ago it was when tafe teachers were having to get teaching degrees, not just having trades, so a lot of the old hands were not happy about that, so i think that was their exit.

[Franco Cozzo]

When I did my apprenticeship I basically got dumped by my own and figured it out on the job, I had a third year apprentice I sort of worked with who showed me a few things then I was on vehicles by myself and figured it out from there, it wasn't like I had guidance from a qualified tradesman, in four years I probably spent 6 months with a third year apprentice and then I had other apprentices with me teaching them when they came through.

I taught a bunch of new apprentices the ropes of our operation then they moved around a little, we were like a slave labour factory where we had more apprentices than tradesman and being used for cheap labour.

It taught me two things though - initiative and the ability to deal with ambiguity, which hands down are two of my top three skills, the ability to try my best to figure something out and fix problems before asking questions which I find sorely lacking amongst certain staff in my current workplace.

A lot of people seem to work like a yes/no flowchart where when they hit a no they stop and ask questions rather than dig deeper to find a solution with minimal disruption.

[.:4:.]

I got thrown in the deep end as a 4th year, and to be honest thats when i learnt the most in a short period of time. My tradesman was an excellent teacher but he quit. Im still mates with the bloke. But on his last day he chucked me the keys to his work van and just shrugged when i asked what do i do with it, as in return it to the office or what? The office never got back to me about the van, so i had my first work car. My boss seemed harsh at the time. I couldnt ask questions without evidence because he would simply hang up on me. I could ask questions if it was the case of this that and the other test out etc, is there anything else to look at, or option a will take longer but will option b be too expensive? But if any question my boss deemed as asking how to do my job, he would just hang up and not speak to me again untill he had an email saying job done. But, i had an apprentice, still mates with that bloke too. But, i learnt a lot. It was a stressful time as i my kid was born when i was a 3rd year so kids and apprentice wages = a **** tonne of overtime and no sleep just to stay afloat. But i got more hours of experience in that year then in the prior 3, and that was under an excellent tradesman. Theory is good, but just because in theory you should be able to do something, doesnt always mean you can do it in practice.

[John 13]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

Do I trust the Morrison Government to do this right? - absolutely not

Some of you think TAFE is **** now, just wait until they get their hands on it

It's time I told a bit more, this has taken off more than I expected.
Already it has been indicated that this gov't favours more involvement of private training providers. Colleges have a responsibility (under national training standards) to monitor the progressive on the job development of the apprentice, log books - site visits etc. How effectively this is done and what if things are not as they should be is always the question, ticks and signatures ? It would be rare for a college, particularly a private provider, to turn an employer away.
In this state colleges may be audited by "independent" auditors which can result in an impact on their funding. The funding process is different for TAFE and private providers. Some private providers frequently use FIFO trades persons as part time lecturers on their swing shift. TAFE is also using more part time lecturers. It appears that the main issue for the apprentices is "will this be in the test ?" It is not unusual for assessment material only to be specifically taught.
When my job was to visit workplaces essentially dealing with the contractual arrangement between the employer and the apprentice, the range of on the job trade relevant experience varied from one extreme to the other. It invariably related to the employers size and scope of business. Yet at the end of the day all graduating apprentices were equal.
This is one of my points and it highlights a failure in the traditional apprenticeship system. Incidentally while, with the best intention, group training schemes were introduced, it would be rare for any employer to voluntarily let a good working apprentice move on.

[Trevor 57]

I am having a reno going on at the moment and the builder was saying one of his apprentices hasn't been seen by the private training provider for 18 months. It is not just TAFE's

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by John 13

The funding process is different for TAFE and private providers.

That is not the case in Victoria - we are funded the same - that was all part of the Baillieu (Liberal) State Government policy at the time, however they forgot that they actually own TAFE's, so the idiots effectively sent all THEIR own regional TAFE's broke, by giving the TAFE's NO MONEY to maintain their (the Governments) facilities and equipment.

The Baillieu (Liberal) State Government gave no consideration that private RTO's work out of a small office and a car, yet TAFE's are expected to have building, facilities, machinery, etc - the idiots were told to not do it - but they did it. It was one of the reasons they got booted.

Governments learn the hard way that if you want to loose an election muck around with health and education, good ol' Jeff Kennett got booted for the same reason

However, there are some on here that know all that already, coz they are the FF oracles, not you John, others

[Rallye Sport]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

so, are you happy to work for free? Would you do hours and hours of work to not be paid for it? Yet you expect TAFE to work the same - As i said previously with RPL YOU are the one claiming you can meet the requirements of the training package, then it is up to YOU to prove it. We have to spend hours mapping what you claim meets the requirements of the current training package to what the requirements (training package) actually say. If we believed everything every person was claiming about their life's learning without PROOF then we would be issuing qualifications fraudulently - is that OK?

However you quote "RPL' but what I read is 'credit transfer'. Credit transfers are a very different thing to RPL. ALL training providers across Australia are obliged to accept the Nationally accredited qualifications issued by other registered training organisations (RTO's) - it is a legal requirement

As for the fees, back in the day your fees were fully subsidised by Government (read tax payer), well guess what they aren't any more. You were happy for the Government (read tax payer) to fully fund your learning????? but not happy to contribute any of your own money now? Sounds hypocritical to me - pay more tax then, then your enrolment fees will go down - see the lunacy?

Government has cut the **** out funding that TAFE's get for training delivery, so much that they had to start charging an enrolment fee to cover costs. The off-shoot of that is there isn't as much money around to buy / upgrade training equipment

I don't know why you are all shocked by this - it would be the same in your business (or life) if you had your income cut by up to 80%, (in some cases, actually 90%)

Go to training.gov.au and do a search of your qualification, then look at the Units of Competence that make up the qual, then take the time to look at just one Unit of Competency and take particular note of the 'Performance Criteria', the 'knowledge evidence', the performance evidence, etc. You have to meet all that for us to deem you 'competent' and it means you proving it more than once, as it says a 'range of conditions'


Here is one I just picked at random - MEM31319 - Certificate III in Refrigeration and Air Conditioning, you much achieve '96 points' to be awarded that qual - you do the search to see what that means

One of the Units of Competency from that qual is MEM05012 - Perform routine manual metal arc welding - https://training.gov.au/Training/Details/MEM05012. Go your hardest and look at the above listed stuff and see how you go meeting the requirements if you are qualified in that field

You all know so much - go your hardest

Yes I've worked for free over the years, that'd be called passion and striving towards a goal.

In regards to the RPL mine was for a course related to a certificate I already had, Horticulture trade and I was applying for Landscape construction 3. I supplied everything that was requested of me, the lecturer just couldn't be bothered checking the references and course numbers on my USI which incidentally was the same number as the unit he was trying to 'sell' me. I was told directly it was too much work. My immediate thought was "When did you loose your passion and drive?" So I did exactly the same unit, incidentally with Horticulture students (to fill the night course numbers) for a second time to get exactly the same number unit number as I already had.

As for fees "back in the day YOUR fees were fully subsidised by the government" I've always paid cash up front for all of my courses, no payment plans or hand outs, how is that being a hypocrite? You seem to be making alot of assumptions of my circumstances.

I know where you're coming from, its not easy to hear critisisms of you're industry, we're much the same but we don't get offended, we take things on board and move forward and strive for a better future.

[Trevor 57]

I said already I am happy for constructive criticism, and of course you will appreciate that there is nothing I can do

However there are some on here that have 'mates of mates' who. . . . . . . . . and that is just unsubstantiated rubbish and should be taken elsewhere

Reading your statement I read 'credit transfer' not 'RPL', if it was the same Unit of Competence then they MUST by law accept it, no choice. If you received the original Unit from the same TAFE then it should be on their system. Our system self-populates if a person already has a Unit of Competence with us, we can't over-write it, and they are not charged for it

RPL is a whole different process however

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Rallye Sport

As for fees "back in the day YOUR fees were fully subsidised by the government" I've always paid cash up front for all of my courses, no payment plans or hand outs, how is that being a hypocrite? You seem to be making a lot of assumptions of my circumstances

I was talking over 10 years ago, that may not have applied to you in the West but certainly was the case here - the TAFE's back then were lazy, no doubt - but things have changed considerably

If people do not finish the Unit of Competency they are enrolled in we don't get paid, if we get one date wrong on our system we don't get paid - the only guarantee money is when you enrol, we get a little bit

So effectively we could deliver our hearts out, then you decide to not hand in ONE final piece of assessment, so you don't complete, then we have done all the work and not get paid for it (here)

[Rallye Sport]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

I said already I am happy for constructive criticism, and of course you will appreciate that there is nothing I can do

However there are some on here that have 'mates of mates' who. . . . . . . . . and that is just unsubstantiated rubbish and should be taken elsewhere

Reading your statement I read 'credit transfer' not 'RPL', if it was the same Unit of Competence then they MUST by law accept it, no choice. If you received the original Unit from the same TAFE then it should be on their system. Our system self-populates if a person already has a Unit of Competence with us, we can't over-write it, and they are not charged for it

RPL is a whole different process however

Cheers, honestly, thats the most info anyone has been able to give me on the matter.
Its on my record twice now so something has gone wrong at some point, not sure if its worth chasing up but it has left me with a sour taste.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

so, you are telling me that in days gone past bosses NEVER EVER trained their apprentices, NEVER EVER stuck them with another tradie, or even a first year with a 4th year - NEVER EVER - it was all done by trade school - really????????

huh??

[Tickford.]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

he can ask for his enrolment to be deferred, there is a process around this, all he has to do is ask. They are being lenient towards these requests at the moment (Gvmt policy)

Just an update on this. He went in to ask to be deferred, until next year. He was told not possible to be deferred at Chisholm, and the only choice is to withdraw from the course, get a partial refund, then re-enrol next year, and pay the full $2500 again!

Understand that COVID has caused many issues for TAFE, but that is just absolute bullsheeet!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Tickford.

Just an update on this. He went in to ask to be deferred, until next year. He was told not possible to be deferred at Chisholm, and the only choice is to withdraw from the course, get a partial refund, then re-enrol next year, and pay the full $2500 again!

Understand that COVID has caused many issues for TAFE, but that is just absolute bullsheeet!

Take it further, that's bull****.

[pottery beige]

trevor will sort this out

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

so, you are telling me that in days gone past bosses NEVER EVER trained their apprentices, NEVER EVER stuck them with another tradie, or even a first year with a 4th year - NEVER EVER - it was all done by trade school - really????????

Ohh FFS!
Of COURSE, we train our apprentices with on the job experience and spreading them around the various areas of the factory, with competent tradesmen! (And always HAVE!)
Some time in the CNC area, fabrication area, general machining, fitting area, onsite maintenance etc.
Our company philosophy was always to invest in generating competent tradesmen, (and not a “cheap” labour source!)... After all, they are the future of your business... if you can hang onto the good ones? (Another topic, that!)
BUT, we should NOT have to re-teach the practical side of virtually every module that their training provider (TAFE) should reasonably be expected to!
The standard of TAFE training has deteriorated abysmally over the last decade or so!... THAT is my point!
You can blame Liberal Governments, blame lack of funding, blame who you bloody like...
The simple fact IS... TAFE Apprenticeship training is sub-standard, which has directly lowered the quality of “tradespeople ” produced in Australia!!
Think back to when major organisations had their own in-house training facilities (Repco, Government Aircraft factory, Government Ordnance factory, Naval dockyards, GMH etc) working in conjunction with properly equipped, master tradesmen teachers in the Tech School system.
The tradesmen produced were world class, many going on to be industry leaders!
A far cry from what’s being spat out of today’s broken system!
Anyhow.... Not my concern anymore! Pura Vida all.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Tickford.

Just an update on this. He went in to ask to be deferred, until next year. He was told not possible to be deferred at Chisholm, and the only choice is to withdraw from the course, get a partial refund, then re-enrol next year, and pay the full $2500 again!

Understand that COVID has caused many issues for TAFE, but that is just absolute bullsheeet!

we are allowing deferrals - must be an individual TAFE thing

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

Ohh FFS!
Of COURSE, we train our apprentices with on the job experience and spreading them around the various areas of the factory, with competent tradesmen! (And always HAVE!)
Some time in the CNC area, fabrication area, general machining, fitting area, onsite maintenance etc.
Our company philosophy was always to invest in generating competent tradesmen, (and not a “cheap” labour source!)... After all, they are the future of your business... if you can hang onto the good ones? (Another topic, that!)
BUT, we should NOT have to re-teach the practical side of virtually every module that their training provider (TAFE) should reasonably be expected to!
The standard of TAFE training has deteriorated abysmally over the last decade or so!... THAT is my point!
You can blame Liberal Governments, blame lack of funding, blame who you bloody like...
The simple fact IS... TAFE Apprenticeship training is sub-standard, which has directly lowered the quality of “tradespeople ” produced in Australia!!
Think back to when major organisations had their own in-house training facilities (Repco, Government Aircraft factory, Government Ordnance factory, Naval dockyards, GMH etc) working in conjunction with properly equipped, master tradesmen teachers in the Tech School system.
The tradesmen produced were world class, many going on to be industry leaders!
A far cry from what’s being spat out of today’s broken system!
Anyhow.... Not my concern anymore! Pura Vida all.

I remember all out OLD trades teachers complaining about things are not done like they were, they have all gone and retired now, but anyway, back in the day when a cabinet maker made a cabinet, it was a work of art, now it is all punched out on a CNC machine - we have just (in the last 18 months) installed 2 big flash cabinet making CNC machines at 2 of our campuses

Back in the day a motor mechanic would pull a car bit down and rebuild it, now car technicians remove and replace, we have gone from a place where R&R meant remove and repair to a place where R&R means remove and replace. A builder used to dig posts holes, stick frame a house etc etc, now, pour a slab, (done by concreters) stand up the pre-fab frames (framers),roof goes on (plumbers or roof tilers) etc etc etc. Back in the day I built houses from stump to finish off, including roofing iron, didn't do gutters or internal plumbing or electrical, but did everything else, including laying individual floor boards - yes, I am an old bloke.

That is reality, so many "traditional trades" have lost the skill & knowledge they once needed to do their jobs, now they just plug in a computer and it tells them what to do next - is that TAFE's fault - well I really should have no need to answer that do I??????

It is nice to reflect on the old days, but that is exactly what they are "old days" - technology rules our world and some old traditionalists really struggle with the new reality - I get it - trust me I do

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

trevor will sort this out

I don't see the point of sarcasm

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

I remember all out OLD trades teachers complaining about things are not done like they were, they have all gone and retired now, but anyway, back in the day when a cabinet maker made a cabinet, it was a work of art, now it is all punched out on a CNC machine - we have just (in the last 18 months) installed 2 big flash cabinet making CNC machines at 2 of our campuses

Back in the day a motor mechanic would pull a car bit down and rebuild it, now car technicians remove and replace, we have gone from a place where R&R meant remove and repair to a place where R&R means remove and replace. A builder used to dig posts holes, stick frame a house etc etc, now, pour a slab, (done by concreters) stand up the pre-fab frames (framers),roof goes on (plumbers or roof tilers) etc etc etc. Back in the day I built houses from stump to finish off, including roofing iron, didn't do gutters or internal plumbing or electrical, but did everything else, including laying individual floor boards - yes, I am an old bloke.

That is reality, so many "traditional trades" have lost the skill & knowledge they once needed to do their jobs, now they just plug in a computer and it tells them what to do next - is that TAFE's fault - well I really should have no need to answer that do I??????

It is nice to reflect on the old days, but that is exactly what they are "old days" - technology rules our world and some old traditionalists really struggle with the new reality - I get it - trust me I do

I’ll agree to disagree.... The BASICS of any trade are exactly THAT...
The “Basics” are still relevant to modern technology! They are the reasons behind these evolving Technologies! (And an important part of an apprenticeship)
A qualified CNC machinist should know the basics behind the modern machining methods... Speeds & feeds, rake angles on cutters... Even the simple sharpening of a bloody drill bit.
Signed sincerely: Your RETIRED “old” Traditionalist.... (now living the dream)