Advanced Driving "P" Plate

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

The metro at 350 hours, perhaps. The 737 with 450 hours.............????? Do you mean 4500 hours????

I was going to say :

[GTpilot]

MY theroy.

Get your "p Plates" at 16 AFTER successfully completing a defensive driver course and passing a road rules and driving test. BUT until your 18 you are only permitted to drive a small car with a STOCK STANDARD, 1.6Ltr (MAX) normaly asperated engine AND 1 passenger Limit. once you turn 18 you are than able to APPLY to have your restrictions EASED, This is only after successfully completing and PASSING advanced driving course and further driving tests. You are now allowed STOCK 4.0 Ltr MAX engine, still no chargers. THEN once you 22 (yes 22 not 21) you can again, APPLY to have all restrictions lifted, but to be successfull you MUST have a clean slate driving record, no fines, no accidents of your doing. By this time you would have has 6 yrs REAL drive experience.

Each fine or accident add 12mths to your current restriction. 3 fines you lose you license for 6 mths and start you current level again.


I get sick of hearing young idiot trying to tell me they "know the limits of their cars" especially those driving hot rice burners. I always tell them they don't because if they knew the limit, chances are, they would be dead.



RIP STOCKY.
Killed Feb 1996, by a P Plater falling a sleep at the wheel.
His ZG was mashed.

[nitroman]

Being ignorant of car control is dangerous. Sure maturity takes time, but if a young driver doesen't know how to control their car in a tricky situation they WILL crash.
Some people have this idea that advanced driver education means controlling a car at 200+k and turns all the students into hoons, what crap. I am alive today because of what I learned through advanced driving and riding education.
It should be compulsory for everybody on the street!

[flappist]

Originally Posted by I FluXx I

I dont know about the whole aviation thing. My brother is a comercial pilot and he is learning to fly a metro (19 seats) and he only has about 300hrs. And his friend is now flying a 737 with only about 450hrs.

You are right, you do not know about the whole aviation thing at all.

Bullcrap, your brother is lying to you or he is in a third world country like Nigeria and his "licence" is invalid in the rest of the word.

[Polyal]

I say ban P plater threads...: and yet I get sucked in...

Your never going to please everyone, there will always be exception, and there will always be accidents.

But instead of having a sook, and saying thats its all unfair, step back, think about the topic, and then think about the rest of the world and all the crap that is going on. The issue of being restricted on what you can drive for a couple of years really isn't a big deal.

Advanced driving courses are good, but that doesn't suddenly qualify you as an experienced and mature driver; time is the only thing that is going to do that. And its the time that is trying to be prolonged, as a fair percentage dont make it.

Perhaps the rules are not with the times. I could be wrong, but my parents didn't have access to "high performance" cars when they got there license, actually, they even paid for it on their own.

It seems that through the natural evolution of the car that "potentially" some of the stuff now is a little more dangerous, but on the other hand obviously safety standards have also increased. But it doesn't matter to a certain extent what you drive, in a big crash the odds are stacked against you.

This could be a big generalization (and there are always exceptions), but previous generations didn't have the distractions, nor the cars that younger people have today.

Of course there were still accidents, it happens, but perhaps the fact that their 120Y was slow as a snail did a bit to curb their ambition of be a rally ace on the road with their friends in the back.

Also, another negative for the courses is that younger people (males mainly) dont need their ego pumped up even more by completing the course.

If anything the course should be done in high school, part of the drivers ed, and subsidised by the government, one day maybe...

[poolkeeper]

Originally Posted by Josh_XC

Ok. ive done an advanced driving course, it was massive helpfull.
But with this i can see it adding to P platers ego as if they have done the course it might have a negative effect, as in if a p plater has done the course it can give the p plater the impression that they can do anything and there invincible and cant do anything wrong, i can see this happening for sure as this is in my opinion the biggest problem with P platers 2day.

I should know i am a p plater.

It can also go like = Ive only got a 6 cylinder, I cant do anything wrong or dangerous in this car otherwise it would of been banned.

I should know i am a p plater.

[chevypower]

i think driver training should start from Prep at school, and when the kids in Grade 6, some form of ability to teach them how to control a car, giving them the opportunity to get it completely out of their system and competence well before they get on the road. Then when they get their P plates, give them power restrictions for 1 yr of solo driving, just like a motorcycle, then the next yr or two P plate, but drive any car.

[poolkeeper]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

If this kind of thing was applied to anyother age group/demographic then there would be cries of discrimination left, right and centre.

Yep, they would be having a big sook just like p platers are now.. :

[boss-290]

I'm just disgusted at the lack of knowledge.

Banning a V8? Most Falcon's and Commodore's 6cyl are more powerful than most pre 80's V8's.

Perhaps if they got there cause right, they would succeed.

[Sykotik]

Get your "p Plates" at 16 AFTER successfully completing a defensive driver course and passing a road rules and driving test. BUT until your 18 you are only permitted to drive a small car with a STOCK STANDARD, 1.6Ltr (MAX) normaly asperated engine AND 1 passenger Limit. once you turn 18 you are than able to APPLY to have your restrictions EASED, This is only after successfully completing and PASSING advanced driving course and further driving tests. You are now allowed STOCK 4.0 Ltr MAX engine, still no chargers. THEN once you 22 (yes 22 not 21) you can again, APPLY to have all restrictions lifted, but to be successfull you MUST have a clean slate driving record, no fines, no accidents of your doing. By this time you would have has 6 yrs REAL drive experience.

imagine how much the cost of a 1.6 litre would go up if all 16 - 18 y.o. were only allowed to drive them or below?

[Sykotik]

Banning a V8? Most Falcon's and Commodore's 6cyl are more powerful than most pre 80's V8's.

V8s aren't actually banned. It all comes down to the power:weight ratio. Engine isn't allowed to have a higher capacity than 3500cc per tonne.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

The metro at 350 hours, perhaps.

Well apart from the insurance issue, only Metro 2s are under 5700kg MTOW so an ATPL is required for all the rest and I am fairly sure there are no Metro 2s left in Oz. I will check tomorrow, the guy who runs the ground school for that type is a mate (he taught me to fly originally).
Even if it is a metro 2 and insurance is not an issue how do you get a CPL, initial twin, MECIR, pressurisation, MCE and BGT in 350 hrs? Maybe if you won lotto?
I had PA31 at 350 hrs and that was just lucky because another person won lotto and bought a nevergo "to take the family for holidays" and needed it to be flown occaisionally. Most of my group were busy destructing in bugsmashers at 350TT.
A PA31 is a bloody long way from a Metro, TAS 240kt, ceiling FL190, two nasty garretts.... not for the new player....

But back to the thread. I think the confusion is that the "P" crowd think that they are being told they are not good enough for a high performance car because when they play up they migh lose it.

The actual problem is when the average new driver is plodding along and a problem jums out to bite them they do not know what to do instintivley.

e.g. My car will break traction in 4th at 100km/h on slightly damp roads. It has caught me a couple of times at night when overtaking and the bum has stepped out. At that speed if you do not correct it immediately and smoothly you will fishtail off into the scrub in nothing flat.
Also on roundabouts that have oil on them from trucks or 4wds. A low powered car might break and chirp but hold fairly steady. A high powered car will step out and then potentially understeer into the next lane.
There are many many cars on this forum that are more powerful than mine.

[needaXYGT]

instead of just banning all V8's, they should put restrictions on power:weight ratios.
i cant drive a worn out XC V8 but i can drive a BA XR6 which has stacks more performance.

[Sykotik]

instead of just banning all V8's, they should put restrictions on power:weight ratios.
i cant drive a worn out XC V8 but i can drive a BA XR6 which has stacks more performance.

didn't you read my message about power-weight ratios? They exist. 3500cc per tonne.

[RIPGMH]

Originally Posted by flappist

What you mean restricting new players until they have experience?

Well apart from a Pilot's licence there would be:
Heavy transport licence.
Mariner's licence.
Pistol licence.
Most heavy machinery licences.

I am having trouble thinking of a licence to control a complex or potentially dangerous machine that is NOT restricted for new players.

Can you think of one?

The 25 year old restriction is based on age which I would generally take as being discrimination. No matter what some people like to tell themselves age does not equal experience or talent. Young people are an easy blame which offer little to no political resistance. I'm not affected by these new laws but that doesn't mean I lose sight of what is reasonable.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

The 25 year old restriction is based on age which I would generally take as being discrimination. No matter what some people like to tell themselves age does not equal experience or talent. Young people are an easy blame which offer little to no political resistance. I'm not affected by these new laws but that doesn't mean I lose sight of what is reasonable.

Same. I never was, but I still think they are rediculous.

[mr scotto]

Originally Posted by chevypower

i think driver training should start from Prep at school, and when the kids in Grade 6, some form of ability to teach them how to control a car, giving them the opportunity to get it completely out of their system and competence well before they get on the road. Then when they get their P plates, give them power restrictions for 1 yr of solo driving, just like a motorcycle, then the next yr or two P plate, but drive any car.

well i just bought a gokart/buggie for my 8 year old daughter for driver training.the way i see itis if you know why you lost control there's a better chance of not being in that situation again.
why are these power restrictions not impemented at every race track in australia .??????????????

[RIPGMH]

It costs money to implement driver training programs, fining young people for driving vehicles deemed "inappropriate" costs nothing and generates money.

[4Vman]

Some people still look at a licence to drive a car as a right, not a responsibility.... NOBODY has enough experience to drive a high powered car by doing an advanced driving course alone....

[flappist]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

The 25 year old restriction is based on age which I would generally take as being discrimination. No matter what some people like to tell themselves age does not equal experience or talent. Young people are an easy blame which offer little to no political resistance. I'm not affected by these new laws but that doesn't mean I lose sight of what is reasonable.

Oh sorry, I did not get that bit. I suppose discriminating on age is very rare well apart from:
Alcohol & cigs at 18.
Join army 17
Join coppers 19
Old age pension 65
Start school 5
Leave school 15
Driver's licence 17
Private Pilot 16
Commercial pilot 18

Stop whinging, if you don't like the law VOTE the buggers out. You had your chance but you voted Premier Pete back in. Only 3 years to go.

[RIPGMH]

So how do you gain experience at driving a high powered car?? Maybe a simulator and some pixie dust

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

The 25 year old restriction is based on age which I would generally take as being discrimination. No matter what some people like to tell themselves age does not equal experience or talent. Young people are an easy blame which offer little to no political resistance. I'm not affected by these new laws but that doesn't mean I lose sight of what is reasonable.

Statistically the 18-25 age bracket is over twice as likely to be involved in an accident than any other driving group, what more evidance would you like?

[RIPGMH]

Originally Posted by flappist

Oh sorry, I did not get that bit. I suppose discriminating on age is very rare well apart from:
Alcohol & cigs at 18.
Join army 17
Join coppers 19
Old age pension 65
Start school 5
Leave school 15
Driver's licence 17
Private Pilot 16
Commercial pilot 18

Stop whinging, if you don't like the law VOTE the buggers out. You had your chance but you voted Premier Pete back in. Only 3 years to go.

If I refused to employ a 19 year old woman because she couldn't perform manual labour to a satisfactory level I would be in breach of Anti-Discrimination policy because I assumed she couldn't do it. But when the state government assumes a 24 year old man can't drive than its all good??

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

So how do you gain experience at driving a high powered car?? Maybe a simulator and some pixie dust

You gain experience driving on the road first, then you gain maturity with age and driving experience....
You don't need to have experience driving a high powered car per say if you gain some years of road experience first, obey the road rules and show a mature approach to driving.

[RIPGMH]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Statistically the 18-25 age bracket is over twice as likely to be involved in an accident than any other driving group, what more evidance would you like?

What percentage of these accidents involved high performance or modified cars, since apparently thats the issue.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

What percentage of these accidents involved high performance or modified cars, since apparently thats the issue.

Does it even matter? remember the rules are being set to protect these fools from themselves (and the innocent).
Again.. driving is a prividge and resposibility, not a right.

[RIPGMH]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Does it even matter? remember the rules are being set to protect these fools from themselves (and the innocent).
Again.. driving is a prividge and resposibility, not a right.

Lets replace that flag with a hammer and sickle, the government knows better and we should fully trust in them to make decisions for us, eh comrade?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

Lets replace that flag with a hammer and sickle, the government knows better and we should fully trust in them to make decisions for us, eh comrade?

Were not talking civil rights here, were talking the roads and licence, and a demographic notoriously responsible for over twice as many incidents and poor/imature actions.. (recent events in noble park?) They are 2 totally seperate issues, handled in 2 totally seperate ways, i know i sound like a broken record but you must accept that DRIVING IS A PRIVIGE AND RESPONSIBILITY, NOT A RIGHT.

dont confuse the 2.

Also it wouldnt hurt the "must have everything now" generation to cool their heels a bit and learn to respect the privilige they get given rather than demanding everything straight away...

[RIPGMH]

Its all fine and good because it doesn't affect us, but what if the government said high performance cars just aren't worth the risk and decided to ban anything even remotely powerful? We have to look at this long-term, car enthusiasts are the minority and any errosion of our lifestyle at any level should be resisted. What is the magic age where you suddenly get this "experience"?? 25,30,50? Individuals are just that and a blanket law that covers everyone is just silly.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

Its all fine and good because it doesn't affect us, but what if the government said high performance cars just aren't worth the risk and decided to ban anything even remotely powerful? We have to look at this long-term, car enthusiasts are the minority and any errosion of our lifestyle at any level should be resisted. What is the magic age where you suddenly get this "experience"?? 25,30,50? Individuals are just that and a blanket law that covers everyone is just silly.

If high powered vehicles because a significant contributer to deaths in the older age groups like they are with the inexperienced then you and i would have to accept it would be pretty hard to agrue the point wouldnt it..