Road Safety Strategy: Driver's Behaviour Unchanged

[myxr6]

No one cares about the current speed limits, dropping them just gives them something else to ignore.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

the road toll in Victoria in 1974 was 1034, that is the National total these days, all the changes that have been made over the last 30 years have made a difference, 700 more people are alive in Victoria every year.

Sometimes when you drive in the CBD, you wish it was 700 less people alive .

The only way you are going to STOP road accidents is by removing HUMAN ERROR. The only way to do that is by getting a computer to drive the car for you, then we wont have accidents at all. Instead of fighting over manual vs auto, we'll be fighting over human driver or computer haha.

GPS speed limit cars, raise the fine for speeding, introduce new laws but that wont do anything. You can minimise human error by TRAINING, not by legislating.

[GavL]

Originally Posted by balthazarr

Presumably what he means is 50km/h everywhere where it is currently 60/70/80/90/100 (except freeways), and 40km/h in current 50 zones.

My question is... why should we have to practically crawl around cities and other urban areas all because a few pedestrians are careless/drunk/suicidal/whatever enough to watch for vehicles?

Agreed, it would be stupid to crawl around everywhere. Taking like 2 hours to get anywhere cause we have a blanket 50km/h speed limit? NO THANKS.

[Franco Cozzo]

F THAT. I couldn't stand getting stuck behind this old couple sitting on between 60 and 70 on my 100 zone road ALL THE WAY UNTIL THE NEXT TOWN 26KM DOWN THE ROAD. Every time I got to unbroken lines, there was either a car coming or a hill where you couldn't see far enough down the road to safely overtake.

50? It'll double how long it takes to get there, imagine us poor folk who live out in the country, instead of 1 hour to get to work, its 2 either way. Most of these people who think of these rules probably have a 5 minute drive to work and live right in the CBD. Instead of driving all sorts of cars, we'll be driving Suzuki Alto's or Smart cars, maybe a gokart.

[balthazarr]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

the road toll in Victoria in 1974 was 1034, that is the National total these days, all the changes that have been made over the last 30 years have made a difference, 700 more people are alive in Victoria every year.

Big Trev, it's great that 700+ more people are alive each year due to a diminishing road toll, it really is.

But what percentage of those 700+ are due to lowered speed limits, increased enforcement, etc., and what percentage due to vast improvements in vehicle design and safety features?

My guess is, nobody really knows. But just think about your average mid-70's car, compared to your average current model car - crumple zones, full seatbelts for all occupants, reinforced cabins, air bags, abs, stability/traction control, etc. Sure, not all cars have all features, but there is definitely a lot more thought put into safety features these days than back in the 70s.

One of the points I was trying to make in my OP is that it's always put back on the motorists... the idiots that take their own lives into their own hands (whether deliberately or carelessly) seem to be treated with kid gloves.

[BOSHOG]

driver training in our country is a joke, i am so over seeing parents teaching their children bad habits on the road. i think driver training should be left to professionals

[Bunyip]

Geez I see a lot of excuses here. Roads are rubbish, speed limits to high or to low, driver training bad even pedestrians getting in the way. Yes these may be some of the problem, but guys get real it's all in the attitude you take onto the road with you.

[BOSHOG]

Originally Posted by Bunyip

Geez I see a lot of excuses here. Roads are rubbish, speed limits to high or to low, driver training bad even pedestrians getting in the way. Yes these may be some of the problem, but guys get real it's all in the attitude you take onto the road with you.

maybe its the attitude thats warranted with the amount off ignorant a***oles on the roads

like it or not, there are reasons for our road toll

[yetchh]

driver training doesnt help anyway.. it just makes the reckless driver feel more confident in his/her actions.. what they need to do is have a psychological test as part of the the learner process to determine just how reckless, angry, stupid and aggressive a driver could turn out to be and limit the size or horsepower of their prospective car or just plain not give them a license.. it may seem a bit draconian but then again some people just plain dont belong on the road.. also, as much as i hate the jaywalking law maybe that is the only way to make stupid people realise that its not always safe to cross anywhere.... bikes should stick only to bike lanes and ride single file.. not like the w.ankers up and down beach road... there, thats my bit

[Franco Cozzo]

Blanket banning things over broad categories is so much easier, but not so effective.

[colossus]

I think the authorites focus far to much on SPEED as the sole cause of all accidents. Yes it plays a part and should be enforced however there is many other things that they should also be looking at to reduce the road toll.

Take for example the crash that killed 4 men on the weekend at Yass when thier car hit a truck on the Hume. We know that the car contained a large amount of Cocaine, and the boot was full of cash. The men were all Chinese and obviosuly drug runners. The police responce to the accident on the news - "We urge all motorists to slow down and stop speeding to reduce the road toll". Ummm how bout these guys were all wired on coke and probably hadn't slept in 4 days - no no must have been speed...

[FalconXR6]

I'm with the attitude brigade.

It really is all about attitude.

Take the tired old cyclists / pedestrians arguement for example;
Do you think there would be an arguement if everyone's attitude was safe ?
The amount of pedestrians I see walking their dogs, kids, etc on the road instead of the footpath just blows my mind (I am not making this up - where I live, more people walk on the road than they do the footpath) - why do they do this ? Bad attitude.

Cyclists (and I'll keep this short);
Why is it that the other day a cyclist decided he would put himself in danger and ride in the centre (read; position himself directly in front of cars) of the road, then flip me the bird because I accelerated rapidly to get around him (it was either accelerate rapidly to get past or get rear ended OR hit him) ? Bad attitude. Most cyclists (not all) have a very, very bad attitude.

What will change this ?
I know exactly what will change it but no one is ready for it and everyone thinks I'm joking...

[BOSHOG]

Originally Posted by FalconXR6

I'm with the attitude brigade.

It really is all about attitude.

Take the tired old cyclists / pedestrians arguement for example;
Do you think there would be an arguement if everyone's attitude was safe ?
The amount of pedestrians I see walking their dogs, kids, etc on the road instead of the footpath just blows my mind (I am not making this up - where I live, more people walk on the road than they do the footpath) - why do they do this ? Bad attitude.

Cyclists (and I'll keep this short);
Why is it that the other day a cyclist decided he would put himself in danger and ride in the centre (read; position himself directly in front of cars) of the road, then flip me the bird because I accelerated rapidly to get around him (it was either accelerate rapidly to get past or get rear ended OR hit him) ? Bad attitude. Most cyclists (not all) have a very, very bad attitude.

What will change this ?
I know exactly what will change it but no one is ready for it and everyone thinks I'm joking...

this sh*** me to no end, but its what theyre told to do. "claiming your space" is considered safe practise by bike riders

[colossus]

Originally Posted by BOSHOG

this sh*** me to no end, but its what theyre told to do. "claiming your space" is considered safe practise by bike riders

This is true - i have never cycled on the road but used to ride a motorbike a fair bit and you are taught to ride in the centre (same as cyclists are taught) othwise cars will try and share the lane next to you and you'll end up being squished.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

And the "Police & Emergency Services Only- U-Turn bays are gatelocked.

See NSW F3 for new examples of this kind of work. The latter done - to prevent idiots doing U-Turns on freeway/dual carriageway roads, also to stop wayward cars entering oncoming lanes through the median, scrub filled area.

But on new widened section of F3 (eg Berowra) these turning areas are still wide open. What's going on?

[Raptor]

Homo Sapiens are risk takers.

Provide safer roads and cars and we just push the envelope a little bit more as that's in our nature.

Having said that I'm all for better training and education along with continually evolving road and vehicle safety.

Though it could be argued all this works against Darwins theory of evolution and is keeping generations of dumb-*** drivers alive and breeding that would otherwise have removed themselves from the gene pool.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Though it could be argued all this works against Darwins theory of evolution and is keeping generations of dumb-*** drivers alive and breeding that would otherwise have removed themselves from the gene pool.

Definitely!!

By helping dumb survive, it is only going to evolve in to something dumber.

[BOSHOG]

Originally Posted by MAD

Definitely!!

By helping dumb survive, it is only going to evolve in to something dumber.

without the dumb who would provide the cheap workforce?

[EgoFG]

I have commented on this before, but the laws we need to enforce are the ones that relate to other road users, in fact the ones that relate to the causes of crashes.

In general speed does not cause an incident, there is another factor.

Lets enforce the existing rules: Mobile Phone, roundabouts, lane changing, keep left, indication, headlights, give way, traffic lights.

Forget speed, it is rarely the cause - just the amplifier !

bluedy soapbox, where do you keep coming from ?

[iliov]

I would honestly love to make all the people who try to impose these laws take their drivers test again and see how they fair. Its so easy to point fingers these days.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by BOSHOG

without the dumb who would provide the cheap workforce?

Hey leave us dumb people alone, your shelves at IGA don't stack themselves! haha

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by colossus

Take for example the crash that killed 4 men on the weekend at Yass when thier car hit a truck on the Hume. We know that the car contained a large amount of Cocaine, and the boot was full of cash. The men were all Chinese and obviosuly drug runners. The police responce to the accident on the news - "We urge all motorists to slow down and stop speeding to reduce the road toll". Ummm how bout these guys were all wired on coke and probably hadn't slept in 4 days - no no must have been speed...

See above POST 30, I mention this crash. A 'design' answer here is mandatory median barrier, meaning "in road design specification" for freeway/motorway class roads.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...-1225797851249

Originally Posted by Keepleft
And the "Police & Emergency Services Only- U-Turn bays are gatelocked.

See NSW F3 for new examples of this kind of work. The latter done - to prevent idiots doing U-Turns on freeway/dual carriageway roads, also to stop wayward cars entering oncoming lanes through the median, scrub filled area.

Originally Posted by new2ford

But on new widened section of F3 (eg Berowra) these turning areas are still wide open. What's going on?

I'll seek an update on that section from Woy Woy fella. I expect its funding. This lot will likely have wire-rope on each side/approach, with yellow bollards in 'blocking', or might get full gatelock a la SYD dipper section.

NSW will not raise the 110km/h speed limit on its intercity freeway/dual carriageway roads, until the road gets full-length median barrier.

I do recall an ATSB study into 130km/h potential for such lengths, basically it concluded that it could be achieved without affecting overall network safety". As I say (NSW) - median barrier, we will see many more kilometres every few months installed.

Northbound at Cowan where the third-lane use to start - the old "Slow Vehicles Use Left Lane" sign *should* have been replaced with "Keep Left Unless Overtaking". I've been away from the area - has it been removed NTF>?


NSW LEARNER News:- IF a NSW L candidate does ONE hour of tuition with an accredited Learner Driver Instructor, that lesson will account for THREE regular hours on the logbook - as done by friends, parents etc.


OT: The AUS Vehicle Certification Board (ADR group) will discuss a NSW proposal to mandate the rear fog function on Tuesday.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

I do recall an ATSB study into 130km/h potential for such lengths, basically it concluded that it could be achieved without affecting overall network safety". As I say (NSW) - median barrier, we will see many more kilometres every few months installed.

Northbound at Cowan where the third-lane use to start - the old "Slow Vehicles Use Left Lane" sign *should* have been replaced with "Keep Left Unless Overtaking". I've been away from the area - has it been removed NTF>?

No the signs are still there. They are runners-up in stupidity to the signs on Mona Vale Road telling drivers not to overtake on the left (which implies it's OK to drive slowly on the right and if you want to pass a person driving on the right you just have to wait behind them). :

The other thing you'll need as well as the barriers before you go to 130 kph is driver education. I came back from Woy Woy to Berowra tonight - driving in the left lane all the way from Kariong to Berowra exit.... passing all the other traffic that was driving slowly in the two right lanes. WTF! Has the RTA been spraying the left lane with swine flu virus and I haven't been told about it?

The police could make a revenue killing on drivers not keeping left but ignore the issue. I've even seen police cars cruising along in the right lane (can I make a citizen's arrest?) - what hope is there? :

[Keepleft]

NTF its a big ask isn't it?

Originally Posted by new2ford

The police could make a revenue killing on drivers not keeping left but ignore the issue. I've even seen police cars cruising along in the right lane (can I make a citizen's arrest?) - what hope is there?

A cultural change/approach. SOME police consider the 'middle-lane' of freeway class roads to be the 'left lane'. On the contrary of course, one passing on the left - slower traffic in the middle and right lanes,- is prima facie evidence of that traffic not_keeping_left!

We have the correct driver ed text in the RUH in relation to three lanes; the *only* AUS jurisdiction to do so.

Part answer will be for the LEFT lane to be unbroken, thus we'll drop the RH lane instead, a la GB practice on freeway/motorway class.

Another action, will be to adopt into ARR's - GB motorway (3) lane use text, well the backing legislation actually, the driver ed text quoted here is not as clear as the GB l.a.w. Its source in the UN Road Traffic Convention as requirement:-

Lane discipline
264
You should always drive in the left-hand lane when the road ahead is clear. If you are overtaking a number of slower-moving vehicles, you should return to the left-hand lane as soon as you are safely past. Slow-moving or speed-restricted vehicles should always remain in the left-hand lane of the carriageway unless overtaking. You MUST NOT drive on the hard shoulder except in an emergency or if directed to do so by the police, HA traffic officers in uniform or by signs.

[Laws MT(E&W)R regs 5, 9 & 16(1)(a), MT(S)R regs 4, 8 & 14(1)(a), and RTA 1988, sects 35 & 186, as amended by TMA 2004 sect 6].

Re the U-Turn Bay business, Kariong F3 camera has the control detail which is increasingly standardised:-
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/trafficrep...3_kariong.html

Done - to help prevent this sort of thing?:-
http://www.boostcruising.com/forums/...owtopic=425650

[Keepleft]

See this blog re keeping left etc:-
http://www.caradvice.com.au/3125/is-...-in-australia/

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

Part answer will be for the LEFT lane to be unbroken, thus we'll drop the RH lane instead, a la GB practice on freeway/motorway class.

The way as it is at present with the right lanes continuous, this actually encourages the habit of driving in the right lanes, drivers then avoid being disrupted by the constant lane changing going on in the left lanes.

As part of making the left lanes continuous to change the mindset of drivers, entry lanes should then become the new left lane, so drivers entering do not need to merge, they simply remain in their lane. The drivers passing the entry would then need to change into the new left lane.

But unfortunately this would be a big ask, as some drivers would still be nervous entering the freeway even though there would be a clear lane to themselves right in front of them. Just look at what happens now on roundabouts designed to keep traffic flowing, some drivers are pretty thick.

[Keepleft]

NTF something for you to read, small Pdf document:-

Coronial Outcome (NSW)


Our 'ramps' leading onto a freeway in standardisation are no shorter or longer than those in Germany on its derestricted freeway network. They will likely remain marked, at their termination,- by the spotted or short dash lines.

I expect in relation to NSW freeway we'd see fewer "Left Lane Ends Merge Right" signs and markings, in favour of "Right Lane Ends XXX Metres, Merge Left", etc.

[new2ford]

But in the case of the aforementioned section of the F3 the three lanes are continuous, so no lane-blending. So what's their excuse?

One thing I really notice here (after coming back from 3 months in Europe) is how the trucks inhabit the middle lane, drive and speed aggressively and are generally king of the road. Obviously in Europe there is some sort of restrictive regime for trucks because they drive very modestly, under limit and stay in the kerbside lane (right lane over there) like glue. What a difference it makes not having to battle with B doubles doing 110 in the middle lanes (often with a couple of their mates overtaking in the other two lanes simultaneously)! The sooner that stuff gets onto rail the better - it really makes sense as part of a holistic roads/transport policy to join forces with rail line upgrading in tandem.

[mik]

its not all peaches and cream for truck drivers either NEW2FORD, many car drivers more often than not are the most impatient and ignorant sods and won`t give them a go, and like it or not trucks are the most efficient and cheapest form of door to door transport.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by mik

its not all peaches and cream for truck drivers either NEW2FORD, many car drivers more often than not are the most impatient and ignorant sods and won`t give them a go, and like it or not trucks are the most efficient and cheapest form of door to door transport.

Oh I know that! I'd prefer to share the road with an experienced truckie any day than the average "Sunday" driver! I was referring to keeping left and the common thundering "B double in the centre lane" syndrome. In Europe they are in the kerb lane by law and limited to 90 kph. It makes a difference for overall use of the road. Despite the skill of truck drivers, car drivers do feel vulnerable when they're trying to get past something that size doing 110 in the middle lane (but slowing down to 60 on the next hill).

And bulk freight should be on rail, no two ways!