Should Ford, GM combine forces?

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Err no... I'm banned from the forum you're thinking of. And no, I don't want to add value to that forum... which is why I unashamedly support this forum. ;)

Back on topic.

Ahh, now I know why I haven't spotted you on there...back O/T...a joint venture on some models would certainly save huge development dollars however especially here in Australia where the F vs H rivalry is enormous can you imagine how the marketing departments would go trying to sell the cars...and although he's now leaving I would love to have heard how MacKenzie (Holden head of sales) would have spun this to the masses.

[Biggoggs]

Afaik, the Commodore and the Falcon are both GM & Ford's flagship cars. Working together, even if it did anything against the Japanese market, they'd still fight over sales. Perhaps they could work on their build quality, quality of service, fuel consumption (which they did with the BF, and need to keep going), etc.

Maybe Ford should do what Holden did with the VL. I'd like to see the Escort revived with an RB26DETT

[4Vman]

I dont think the ACCC would allow it anyway.
Competition is healthy, monopoly's aren't and they breed complacency and greed.
Competition ensures we get the best products at the best prices.

[Hardtopxb]

FORD/GM join together???? NEVER..There is a simple solution dont buy JAP CRAP.japan lost the war but have been giving it to us ever since, the pathetic thing is we are helping them..DOH.

[Jason[98.EL]]

well im one to say no to this

it good to see competition

the companies ie ford and the other need to put a product that is tough and reliable

like ford have done with tha ba/bf

[NIGHTHAWK]

NO way!

[crannersEL]

Not a chance ever of this happening

[Des]

Your kidding aren't you....?

[FTE217]

No they should stand alone.....
Both of these companies are in cocoons and way too heavy.
GM own or part own :
Saab,Vauxhall,Buick,Pontiac,Hummer,20%Suzuki,Isuzu ,10%Fiat,20%Subaru,42%Daewoo,Holden,Chev,Cadillac, Opel.....

Ford
Aston Martin,Lincoln,Jag,Volvo,Mazda33%,LandRover,Mercur y.

Its all a friggin mess and losing badly, as for the Japs why they are getting stronger :
Toyota own 51%Daihatsu nothing else
Honda stand alone
Some Euros :
BMW, Rolls and Mini
Porsche stand alone
Peugot stand alone

To much typing but but the strong ones sell mostly their own brand.
I may be alittle incorrect with some but not far out.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Worth mentioning that Delphi declared bankruptcy on Friday. If they cant trade their way out, GM has an $11 billion liability to employees who used to work for delphi... and could send GM bankrupt.

Yep, GM and bankrupt uttered for the first time during US trading yesterday.

[FTE217]

yep thats right EF Futura, Chapter 11 as its called in the US.
They are forced now to sort out their house and work on trading out of this mess.

[jasons]

definatley not

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Fairlane

Ford and GM have dug themselves into this mess and without massive (and i mean massive) reform i think they are doomed to an extremely slow painful death. Ford Aus and Holden may survive as a sort of seperate entity. What see some major problems in the structure and most of them are in the US.

Way to many brands, all with overlapping products ? (and I know there seperate identities are not that important) It is stupidity to the highest degree and they are paying for it - Why keep Saturn when you got Chev, Why keep Mercury when you got Lincoln, Why keep Pontiac when you got Buick and Chev.

Why do you need to have massive ranges? which are virtually the same. Ford has something like 6 SUV's in the US, shore SUV's sell good but do you need 6 seprate ones. Platforms need to be used more, look at Australia we have learned to build SUV's Ute's, Wagons, Sedans and Limo's of the same platform (though i must admit Ford is starting to do this with cars like focus).

Why do Ford and GM have to try to be the biggest and the best ? if they sorted themselves out first and maintained profitibility in North America they would be in the trouble they are in now. GM lost a packet with SAAB, Fiat and Subaru and i dont think Ford has really made much dough out of PAG and Landrover.

Corporate designs and styling cues, do these ever work on more than 1 or 2 cars?

Zero Percent finance in North America - i wont say any more :


* I really think Gm and Ford have to axe at least 3 brands each worldwide, cut the rot bring some real thinkers and think outside the square. Try stationwagons, try sports cars, try RWD, try small pickups/ute's and for gods sake ditch bloody corporate DNA.

Damn that felt to get that of my chest :jab:

Sorry the post was long but ive wanted to get these sentiments of my chest. After all none of use want to see GM or Ford go down and thousands of people to lose there jobs and live in a world were everone drives a Toyota Echo.

Wow i really did go off topic

Um, Interesting.

You ask why 2 of the big 5 world vehicle manufacturers (one of them is the biggest ie GMC) need to axe some brands huh?
Well lets look at ford america. Firstly, they have three primary brands that they sell in the USA.
They sell the Ford brand, Mercury brand and the Lincoln brand.
All of these vehicles have common parts ie engines, gearboxes etc. Most of them across the model range are using identical platforms ie the Mercury Grande Marquis is actually a leather laden Ford Crown Victoria and is also a Lincoln towncar (admittedly though lincoln wears different sheet metal). So here Ford are simply offering three alternatives in a market that represents over 100 million units per year.

Lets try another ok?
The ford Explorer. This is using the same subframe and underpinnings, transmission, diff etc (it is not monocoque) as the f150, and is also the same vehicle albeit with different equipment levels as the Mercury Mountaineer and Lincoln Navigator. All common parts, just different equipment levels and again in Lincoln's case, some very slightly different sheet metal.

This is not unique to these models either.
The F250 is the basis for the Ford Expedition and the Ford Excursion and the Mercury Mariner and the Lincoln Aviator and the Mark LT. The list is endless. Rather than Ford employing years of mismanagement as you suggest, Ford is actually committing a masterstroke in product differentiation or rather perceived and market accepted differentiation.

For you see, by using the common platforms Ford has offered three alternatives as opposed to one, at minimal cost to them from a manufacturing standpoint. Sort of like how we have a Fairmont and a Fairmont Ghia. Anyway, each one of these cars mentioned sells at least three times as many as we do here with the whole falcon range in Oz, and that's not getting into what the USA exports to countries like Mexico and the Middle East.

Jacque Nasser (who incidentally is Australian) was part of the success that Ford now enjoys, as they are a brand that is rapidly becoming the preferred brand. They also house Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda, Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, Aston Martin and Scania Trucks. This has lent great improvements in technology, safety, design and manufacture across the each brand. (see Jaguar's quality before Ford bought them out).

GMC on the other hand is in a whole new world of poo. This is the part of your post that is correct, for they have not subjected themselves to the rationalisation that Ford has, and are now trying to catch up. They lost two billion in the last quarter alone, and have several lawsuits still pending. (Ford learnt the use of rationalisation with the Explorer several years ago and have thus evolved).

[TZENU]

Probably not... Ford and GM are backbones of the Australian Economy.... a Monopoly is certainly not a good thing!

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by ltd

Jacque Nasser (who incidentally is Australian) was part of the success that Ford now enjoys, as they are a brand that is rapidly becoming the preferred brand. They also house Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda, Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, Aston Martin and Scania Trucks. This has lent great improvements in technology, safety, design and manufacture across the each brand. (see Jaguar's quality before Ford bought them out).

GMC on the other hand is in a whole new world of poo. This is the part of your post that is correct, for they have not subjected themselves to the rationalisation that Ford has, and are now trying to catch up. They lost two billion in the last quarter alone, and have several lawsuits still pending. (Ford learnt the use of rationalisation with the Explorer several years ago and have thus evolved).

Ahhh God... these internet experts... so out of touch with reality.

Newsflash: Ford is in sound financial state... not a worry in the world... all good.

[jmc-007]

Put it this way.

It would be like North and South Korea as one country

[Drive XR7]

They'll never merge... and it's a good thing!

Ford still has the #1 best selling truck in America... the F150. They're beating out every foreign country in that category, with Chevy's Silverado a close second.

Can't believe nobody mentioned Cadillac. They are selling the CTS's and STS's faster than GM can build them! With great new technologies like displacement on demand and fuel cells... I can see there is still a future in GM and Ford. GM has thrown millions in R&D toward fuel cells and as we've all tightened out belts because of fuel prices, it will be welcome. Apparently, from what I've heard, fuel-cell powered vehicles could be out right now, but refueling stations need to start carrying nitrogen because they'll catch on.

Take a look at Ford's Mustang. The average time one of those cars (all models) gets on a dealer lot and is sold is 15 minutes. Believe it or not, it's true.

I feel bad for GM though... they're only big divisions are Cadillac and Chevrolet.

It is sad... however... that so many Americans are driving imported vehicles. I've always held this stance, but it's not because GM and Ford don't have good cars to drive. It's because the management that has been running Ford and GM (not so much Chrysler... they're doing well now.. the 300M was Motor Trend car of the year and they can't sell enough of them). The 0% financing and employee pricing have helped the big 3 out tremendously. They have had record sales in the past couple of months because of this, but now that the deals are over, nobody is buying them anymore. I do think, however, that this was a gamble that will pay off. People quit buying Fords and GMs in the mid 90s because of sub-par quality compared to foreign (Japanese, Chinese, German, Italian, etc) cars. The quality ratings for American-made cars has gone up immensely in the past few years alone, so when consumers realize that not only are they supporting "An American Revolution," they are getting a quality product for a great price at the same time.

I've always said that I'd never drive a foreign car... but I don't think that counts Ford Aus, since Ford does technically own them.

Besides, even if GM started going down the tubes, the US Government would never let them fall apart... they bring in too many jobs and income.

[Drive XR7]

Oh... more to add.

Down with the unions!!

UAW has cost Ford and GM so much money! The average line worker gets paid $25USD an hour to put tires on the new F150 or attach the rear bumpers to the new Mustang. And when they get hurt, Ford pays out the **** in benefits. There used to be a solid use for unions here in the US back in the day, but government laws have restricted many of the things that employers can do so much that unions simply aren't needed. They're costing the Ford and GM millions! Precisely why Delphi filed for bankruptsy... they couldn't pay what the unions were requiring.

Foreign automotive manufactuers are pouring into the US because they can get away with opening plants without unions... they're saving so much money.

[SSbaby]

Guys... don't take this the wrong way but for the thousandth time, nobody said anything about merging... it's about bringing in new technology at reduced cost, ammortised over millions of vehicles, worldwide. People have changed the context of the thread.

:

Is the world slow or is it just this forum? (j/k) :

[Zedjay]

did you know that the back seat in a VN commodore(the part that folds down)
is the same as an XF one
the interior light in a EA-EL is the same as a VN aswell.
the headlight switch in a VR-VS is the same as a ford one too (cant remeber if its EA/ED or EF/EL)
and ive seen other parts that have Ford and GM part numbers on them

so they have already started with things most people dont notice

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Zedjay

did you know that the back seat in a VN commodore(the part that folds down)
is the same as an XF one
the interior light in a EA-EL is the same as a VN aswell.
the headlight switch in a VR-VS is the same as a ford one too (cant remeber if its EA/ED or EF/EL)
and ive seen other parts that have Ford and GM part numbers on them

so they have already started with things most people dont notice

That's an excellent post Zedjay... take a bow mate! ;)

That's what I'm talking about my man!

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

That's an excellent post Zedjay... take a bow mate! ;)

That's what I'm talking about my man!

Do you honestly think that stuff like interior lights and headlight switches are produced by either company?

Unlikely.

I am sure you are familiar with the supply chain process whereby many companies are solely in the business of producing widgets for one or the other... or both.

This is hardly a coming together of two manufacturers... they just happen to source parts from the same supplier following a tender process. Whilst i trust you understand this, it appears zedjay and yourself are misprepresenting the true nature of these shared components.

Newsflash: Ford is in sound financial state... not a worry in the world... all good

Yes, ford is facing tough times but no where near the strife which GM has found itself in. Ford's paper is still rated investment grade (was junk bond status earlier this year but was upgraded i believe in may 05) but GM has had one downgrade after the other. This is standard and poors/moodys/who ever telling the market "guys, we're not convinced this company can service its debt". Not what a company wants to hear a ratings agency say. GM also has a $11billion contingent liability riding on delphi's ability to trade its way out of bankruptcy protection... they were fairly lucky with the union's decisions earlier this week (although i believe this is still to be ratified). GM are in damage control (can you imagine the implications if an australian company laid off 25,000 workers like GM plan to do?)... Ford still have the opportunity to avoid such dire straits.

[SSbaby]

Yes I know... but the savings are passed on to the manufacturer if the same supplier could manufacture more components, more cheaply (procurement).

Wrt the GM/Ford financial situation... i don't want to turn it into a ****ing contest because it won't take much to provoke it... if GM are in strife, the whole US industry is in strife. I don't need to tell you what repurcussions to our motor industry, a Mitsubishi Motor Company closing its doors would have to the cost of cars and sales and jobs... suppliers notwithstanding!

[Zedjay]

one day the only diff between falcon and commodore will be the badges lol

[82XD393.3v]

Bring back the import tarriffs that should slow the jap car invasion

[SSbaby]

For those who think GM and Ford are in different financial states...

Profit hit by loss at North American division; January restructuring in works

Updated: 10:12 a.m. ET Oct. 20, 2005
DEARBORN, Mich. - Ford Motor Co. reported a third-quarter loss of $284 million on Thursday, dragged down more than $1 billion in losses at its North American division, and said it is developing a restructuring plan that will include “significant” U.S. plant closings and staff reductions.

Ford Chairman and CEO Bill Ford said the automaker will announce the restructuring plan in January. He said the plan was painful but essential and would affect salaried workers and hourly workers represented by the United Auto Workers.

“This is not a sacrifice we will ask only the UAW and its members to share. There will be sacrifices throughout the company, top to bottom,” Ford said in a conference call with investors and media. “Our industry is beginning a dramatic restructuring which is sorely needed. While the challenges are great, so are the opportunities.”

The nation’s second biggest automaker lost 15 cents per share for the three months ended Sept. 30 in contrast to a profit of $266 million, or 15 cents per share, in the year-ago quarter.

Revenue for the quarter rose to $40.9 billion from $39.1 billion in 2004.

Excluding special items, Ford lost $191 million, or 10 cents per share. Special items included a charge of $180 million related to Ford’s agreement to take back some unprofitable plants from Visteon Corp., its former parts division, and a charge of $158 million for reduction of employees. Ford has announced plans to cut its salaried staff by 2,750 this year.

Wall Street had predicted a loss of 10 cents per share, according to analysts surveyed by Thomson Financial.

Ford said full-year earnings likely will be at the low end of the current guidance of $1 to $1.25 per share.

“For all the progress, we recognize we’re very far from the finish line,” Bill Ford said. “We need a dramatically different business structure and we need innovation to drive everything we do.”

Ford reported a $1.2 billion pretax loss in its North American automotive operations, compared to a $481 million loss a year ago. The automaker said lower dealer inventories, lower net pricing and higher material and warranty costs contributed to the decline.

Ford Motor Credit Co., the company’s finance arm, reported a profit of $577 million, down $157 million from a year ago. The decrease was due to higher borrowing costs, the company said.

Ford also announced Thursday it will be airing a new television ad campaign featuring Bill Ford talking about innovation, including the company’s goal of creating more fuel-efficient vehicles. Ford announced last month it will make gas-electric hybrid systems available on half its Ford, Lincoln and Mercury vehicles by 2010. Ford last appeared in ads for the company in 2002. Bill Ford is the great-grandson of company founder Henry Ford.

Ford is the second U.S. automaker to report a loss this week. On Monday, General Motors Corp. said it lost $1.6 billion in the third quarter, or $2.89 per share, compared to a profit of $315 million, or 56 cents a share, a year ago.

GM also announced a tentative agreement with the UAW that would lower the automaker’s health care costs by $3 billion a year before taxes and would lower its retiree health care liabilities by $15 billion, or 25 percent. GM’s hourly workers still must ratify the deal.

Ford has said it is already in discussions with the UAW to match that agreement.

Ford said its worldwide automotive pretax losses were $1.3 billion for the quarter. That is more than double the $609 million loss of a year ago. Worldwide sales were 1.5 million vehicles, up slightly from the year before.

The company’s Premier Automotive Group, which includes the Jaguar, Volvo and Land Rover brands, reported a pretax loss of $108 million for the quarter, up from a $171 million loss last year. Ford said the increase was due to a better mix of products and improved pricing at Land Rover.

Ford’s European operations reported a pretax loss of $55 million, compared to $33 million a year ago. Ford’s Asia-Pacific operations reported a pretax profit of $21 million, a decline from $35 million a year ago.

If GM bleeds... so does Ford, and vice versa. If GM is profitable, it drives both GM's and Ford's stock prices up. Investors don't see that there is much difference between the two US automotive giants. In fact, there's a lot of shareholders that have stock in both companies.

[Drive XR7]

F***ing American unions. It's dragging down my country.

[Allen]

Not many people know that Holden used to work for Ford as a coachbuilder, back before GMC bought Holden...

Anyway, Holden subcontracts jobs out to Ford. I went on a tour of Ford's Geelong stamping plant as part of my engineering course, and they were stamping commodore panels.

They may be marketplace rivals, but that doesn't mean they dont work togeather on occasion.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Drive XR7

F***ing American unions. It's dragging down my country.

How are the unions responsible for the mismanagement of the company. It starts from the top down, its not really the unions causing these problems. Health care costs them a fortune but blame the US Government for that. Fords lawsuits for dodgy vehicles can hardly be the unions fault either can it. Blame the United States of Lawsuits for that. It would be amazing to see how much money Ford would spend on lawyers because someone needs to make money from an accident. They must have 50 lawsuits going at the one time.

The land of the free indeed.

[Drive XR7]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

How are the unions responsible for the mismanagement of the company. It starts from the top down, its not really the unions causing these problems. Health care costs them a fortune but blame the US Government for that. Fords lawsuits for dodgy vehicles can hardly be the unions fault either can it. Blame the United States of Lawsuits for that. It would be amazing to see how much money Ford would spend on lawyers because someone needs to make money from an accident. They must have 50 lawsuits going at the one time.

The land of the free indeed.

Look, I have respect for you guys because Aussies can definitely produce some quality products... I respect that.

The management of Ford and GM do have problems... I'm not saying they don't, but do you have any idea how much UAW costs American automotive companies (which trickles down to Holden and Ford Aus)?

I have a friend who works for Ford in Virginia, USA building the F150. Because he is in the union, if they were to randomly drug test him, all he would need to do is throw the bowl down on the ground and say he has a problem. Ford would spare him his job and even pay for services to help him overcome his "problem." I heard it straight from his mouth. It's truely f***ked up over here. Workers can get away with anything because the union has so much power. If it were my company, employees that failed drug tests would be fired on the spot... no exceptions. Maybe that's why American vehicles have sub-par quality compared to their foreign counterparts.

Health care in this country is expensive... but the union has nothing to do with that. Ford employs people and gives them benefits. That's part of the way things work over here. Benefits generally cost a company twice the amount of the take home pay of an employee. $20USD/hr = $40USD/hr to the company.

Maybe if the workers that build these vehicles were to step it up a notch and actually produce quality vehicles (ie, actually have to WORK to keep their jobs), lawsuits and recalls would drop.

No doubt that Ford has lawsuits lined up... but there is legislation currently in the US Senate to prevent frivilous lawsuits from using our country's valuable judicial dollars. Change is happening (would be happening faster if we had better administration.. ie... John Kerry).

It's complicated... but I most definitely blame the unions. They simply aren't needed anymore, yet the exist to push the limit of how far companies will go. A total waste on our economy.