Australian Family Cars: We have gone so far backwards since 2016...

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by PooDog

I don't know what figures your comparing there ?

My Fairmont v8 5.0l made 175kw and 395nm (stock) in 2001 .....not a lot

We bought a new Navara 2.7l diesel in 1997 64kw and a whole 180nm at 2200rpm .....it was like winding up a rubber band

Most Thailand specials make between 430 - 500nm torque out of as small as a 2l ,that's not bad .....sure they're a bit fragile what do you expect when your towing 3.5 tonnes , would have been fun in the 64kw Navara

I’m comparing my 1996 dinosaur XH to a new Hoylux, base model to base model.

Sure I could compare the XR8 to the SR5 or whatever, but even then the fully sik Hoylux would be embarrassed in comfort, reliability, acceleration, handling and good looks.

When I was a one eyed Ford teen I used to bag VNs, laugh at how limp wristed 3800s were compared to Falcon sixes, but even now the VG ute with a base 3800 has more enthusiast appeal than any Siamese ****box on the market. It had rear discs and rack and pinion steering too!

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Real diesels died when they stopped fitting them with liners and using mechanical injection pumps.
Modern DPF, regen stuff, I think of as holding in a fart all day long, until you really need to stop and let the biggest one rip.

What even is the appeal of diesel? More expensive fuel, hard and costly to service, sounds agricultural. I only ever got the appeal in small cars like the Fiesta where it gave you torque.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

What even is the appeal of diesel? More expensive fuel, hard and costly to service, sounds agricultural. I only ever got the appeal in small cars like the Fiesta where it gave you torque.

In the last year or so diesels have become un -economical if these prices continue....over here diesel use to be around 80c alitre cheaper now its around 50c , there used to be an advantage (slight) but at current prices petrol would be more economical.....time will tell

Greedy Arabs are going to sh.. in their own nest EV,s are improving rapidly ....there will come a time when we will have to all make a decision between the sterile drive of an EV or pumping cash into the Arabs

[lra]

I thought I was the only one who considers current market cars crap.
$60K > $ 70K for a soot blowing, high riding 'family' ute for mostly shopping trips and a dream of towing a van to the great outdoors.
Bells, beeps and lights for incompetent, undecided drivers to replace cars that went, stopped and handled better for mostly competent drivers who learned how to drive the 'hard' way.
EVs which require the planning of Apollo 13 mission to go exploring for a pub lunch into the nearly outback, hoping that a charger will be there in working order, so you can get home again.
Eye searing fashion over function designs inside and out that would have been classed as an April Fools Day practical joke pre 1999.
Topped off by the gullibility of the consumer who has been told 'This is what we will sell you because it is what you really want'.

[Giant Cranium]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Go Tesla Model 3 taxi

horrible taxi, they have the worst ride quality in the back seat, your spine gets punched through the top of your head

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

I’m comparing my 1996 dinosaur XH to a new Hoylux, base model to base model.

Sure I could compare the XR8 to the SR5 or whatever, but even then the fully sik Hoylux would be embarrassed in comfort, reliability, acceleration, handling and good looks.

When I was a one eyed Ford teen I used to bag VNs, laugh at how limp wristed 3800s were compared to Falcon sixes, but even now the VG ute with a base 3800 has more enthusiast appeal than any Siamese ****box on the market. It had rear discs and rack and pinion steering too!

There's no point comparing a sedan to a ute one's a commercial vehicle that's why they ride like Shi# , try putting 900kg in the back of your sedan ....utes and SUV,s sell because they're versatile....try doing round town deliveries in a low to the ground sedan and see how you feel at the end of the day ....that's why sedans don't sell

[kypez]

Originally Posted by PooDog

There's no point comparing a sedan to a ute one's a commercial vehicle that's why they ride like Shi# , try putting 900kg in the back of your sedan ....utes and SUV,s sell because they're versatile....try doing round town deliveries in a low to the ground sedan and see how you feel at the end of the day ....that's why sedans don't sell

XH is a Ute, not sedan

[simon varley]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

I was just having a think about how far backwards the standard Australian family car has fallen since 2016.

deep breath. aaand....


no, **** it. can't be bothered. whatever.

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by PooDog

There's no point comparing a sedan to a ute one's a commercial vehicle that's why they ride like Shi# , try putting 900kg in the back of your sedan ....utes and SUV,s sell because they're versatile....try doing round town deliveries in a low to the ground sedan and see how you feel at the end of the day ....that's why sedans don't sell

Hate to break it to you but my Falcon Ute is a commercial vehicle, with a bigger more practical tray than any Thailand Tractor on the market. Steers better (with firmer, more positive feel) and has better ride comfort, equivalent to 90% of my EL sedan.

Let's not even talk about servicing costs, an important factor for any business.

Edit: I'm short so the high up trays of the Extension Wagons are utterly impractical to me. Completely ignoring how the trays carry so much less, they're so much harder to access in the first place!

[kevino]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

Hate to break it to you but my Falcon Ute is a commercial vehicle, with a bigger more practical tray than any Thailand Tractor on the market. Steers better (with firmer, more positive feel) and has better ride comfort, equivalent to 90% of my EL sedan.

Let's not even talk about servicing costs, an important factor for any business.

Edit: I'm short so the high up trays of the Extension Wagons are utterly impractical to me. Completely ignoring how the trays carry so much less, they're so much harder to access in the first place!

It is interesting that no one so far disagrees.

Simon decided against sharing his Ranger loyalist views.

I agree with you too although the last oz made car I drove was a VZ rental and that was disapointing.

But I did drive my mates 2008 FG a few years back briefly impressed with the power and acceleration but the seating and ergonomics was disappointing.

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by kevino

It is interesting that no one so far disagrees.

Simon decided against sharing his Ranger loyalist views.

I agree with you too although the last oz made car I drove was a VZ rental and that was disapointing.

But I did drive my mates 2008 FG a few years back briefly impressed with the power and acceleration but the seating and ergonomics was disappointing.

It's hard to disagree with objective facts. Unless you fudge things and say a ute is actually a sedan, and hope nobody picks you up on that.


Try taking a seat in a well kept E Series. You might be impressed, for a quarter century plus old car...

[Citroënbender]

Speaking of “extension cars” today I saw a Tesla with the plates “ENO61B”…

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by kypez

XH is a Ute, not sedan

Similar height off the ground as a sedan ....you know what I mean

[kypez]

Originally Posted by PooDog

Similar height off the ground as a sedan ....you know what I mean

I'm with you now. Sorry.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by kypez

I'm with you now. Sorry.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

What even is the appeal of diesel? More expensive fuel, hard and costly to service, sounds agricultural. I only ever got the appeal in small cars like the Fiesta where it gave you torque.

Well modern diesels in 4 wheelers, there isn't any appeal.

As stated, old mechanical's , super reliable, excellent fuel economy, torque, no electrics to get water logged, easy to work on, totally serviceable parts, made from real metals not plastic. The workhorse of transport, marine, rail, road and farm.

An old mechanical car type one, old Merc, VW Golf, Landcruiser etc farm machinery, perfect for running waste veggie oil or harvested Canola.

[au2000]

I considered recently selling my GS and my VS Ute and moving to a Alfa Giulia quattrofoligi or a corolla GR but in the end, they were the only 2 vehicles that maybe I’d enjoy but for the cost and what I’ll get, I’ll stick to my GS and VS ute

[whynot]

An interesting topic to contemplate. While I can see your point(s) and respect your viewpoint, I think the arguments have been a little oversimplified and there has been a little bit of cherry picking of the data.

Point 1 – reasonable cost. True, but look at the price of houses lately as a benchmark. Way overpriced. Manufacturers are not charities, they can and will charge what the market can bear.

Point 2 – power and torque. Ranger Raptor 3.0L V6 Twin Turbo EcoBoost engine produces up to 292kW at 5650rpm and 583Nm of torque at 3500rpm.

Point 3 – fuel economy. While my G6E had great fuel economy on the highway, around town it was a different story. If fuel economy is the be all and end all, Taxi drivers abandoned the Falcon before it was even out of production. See this old post from 2013 where a Taxi driver who swapped from an LPG Falcon to a Camry Hybrid was saving themselves $6K per year in fuel costs. https://www.fordforums.com.au/showpo...8&postcount=35

Point 4 – braking. One test result that I found for an XR8 recorded a stopping distance around 40 metres (give or take). (Acknowledging the effect of surface friction of test location), a difference source recorded the stopping distance of Model Y at 34.6 metres (best in the Car of The Year pool). If stopping distance is the primary concern the data is clear, buy a Model Y. A Ford Ranger XLT V6 had a recorded stopping distance of 41.1 metres (not too shabby for a vehicle of that weight), and not to far off the pace of an XR8. But tyre selection makes a big difference here. All terrains make a number of compromises for their sidewall strength and traction on unsealed roads, can easily have a braking distance into 50 metres. Braking distance is a user chooses problem.

Point 5 – rear suspension. Not sure what the problem is here. Falcon wagons - the epitome of AU load carrying - stayed with leaf springs to the bitter end. Ditto, the Falcon Ute. Leaf springs have definite advantages for load carrying and towing over the life of a vehicle. While some of the more sophisticated rear end suspensions have less compromises, they also come with considerable greater upfront and ongoing costs.

Point 6 – Steering. While they may have less feel, modern EPAS allow for safety features like lane control. Something that a pure hydraulic system can never do in a cost-effective manner. While some may dislike the feel of EPAS and question the value of lane control, what is often overlooked is how many collisions this technology has prevented. Front end suspension design is bounded by the requirements for wheel articulation for off road travel, travelling on corrugated surfaces, and the weight of the vehicle.

Point 7 - Interior comfort and convenience – these are primarily work vehicles. They sit out in the sun for extended periods and are subjected to abuse the traditional family car is not. Market wants hard plastic surfaces for these variants.

What has been overlooked is why people are choosing these types of vehicles. A Ford Ranger/Everest can go a lot more places than a Falcon ute/wagon/sedan. They certainly can tow a lot more (caravans have grow in size over the last decade) and do so more safely.

I also think one needs to be careful when raising the “practicality” argument. If we are all going to drive “practical cars” for a large family, then it is a Camry four cylinder.

For whatever reason, the large family sedan (in the format of a Falcon or Commodore) is dead. People have long since moved to SUV, be that AWD or 4WD, and are voting with their wallets.

[naddis01]

For those that own dual cabs, if a Falcon was reintroduced today, would you go back?

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by naddis01

For those that own dual cabs, if a Falcon was reintroduced today, would you go back?

Definitely not, traded my XR ute for dual cab and have not regretted the decision, don't get me wrong I like falcon utes but the dual cab is better for my purpose of vehicle.
Cheers.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by naddis01

For those that own dual cabs, if a Falcon was reintroduced today, would you go back?

Nope, the “Falcon thing” is all about “Rose coloured glasses”, these new Rangers etc are good vehicles.

E8 had some quality issues but a good Barra engine

[vixf6]

Originally Posted by naddis01

For those that own dual cabs, if a Falcon was reintroduced today, would you go back?

Yes but only if fix-
Diff bushes
A/C Mixer shaft
ICC Screen, even then

The zf’s in our G6E and terry are just so nice its not funny, prefer them to the Ute 10 sp by a fair margin

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

Yikes I forget how dreary base Toyota interiors can be. $40k for that penalty box, and only 200 Nm of torque to lug it around! The base Falcon had velour at least, since 2002!

Yep we looked at a few of those in the dealers, I got the impression of a dark, close together, deep and squeezy cabin with vision difficulties out the back. Cloth fabrics were very normal (probably will wear well) - the car out front was demo, not new, and had already sold. Nothing new in stock. The only interior that impressed that day was the Outback Touring at 57+K, an example with tan leather seats, very comfortable, nice view out the dash, spacious, particularly the 2nd row. Wagon length for surfboards...

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Funny you say that, because that could also apply to a bright red V8 Mustang.

At least a Mustang does what is says on the tin, as in being a performance car with drop-dead styling. A dual cab pickup is virtually useless as a "commercial vehicle" unless it's towing a trailer to house all the stuff that won't fit in the tray.

Quite a few tradies down here are going the vans, as all the gear can be stowed and is less floggable. Young one is using a 4x4 wagon, for same reason. Stuff buying a tray or styleside then needing an extra trailer to bring all the tools.

I maintain that an Aussie panel van and shared coupe utility with the power/strengths of old could find a niche in the market. If Mr Ineos Grenadier billionaire can do it for the Defender niche, someone can do it in this case.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

#followthrough

More generally, people have got what they “wanted” - the population is bored and prone to marketing pitches. So many of the reasons cited as justifying the higher prices now paid, are (IMO) back-formed excuses when really it was boredom and inability to stand confidently behind one’s own choices.

A note on durability, the original Bosch ignition module in one of the dailies died Monday. Only lasted since March 1990.

I remember in the decade leading up to closure, there were so many loud voices saying Australian cars were bogan, they were off the global pace, they were dinosaurs. As an immigrant (you grew here, I flew here) coming from a land of 2L milkboxes - this was Nirvana for what you got for the price! I'll never understand this cultural cringe where Australians put themselves down, so much of what's here is best in world. Or was.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

I’m comparing my 1996 dinosaur XH to a new Hoylux, base model to base model.

Sure I could compare the XR8 to the SR5 or whatever, but even then the fully sik Hoylux would be embarrassed in comfort, reliability, acceleration, handling and good looks.

When I was a one eyed Ford teen I used to bag VNs, laugh at how limp wristed 3800s were compared to Falcon sixes, but even now the VG ute with a base 3800 has more enthusiast appeal than any Siamese ****box on the market. It had rear discs and rack and pinion steering too!

Based on this thread and the other thread, its clear theres an axe to grind.
Falcons are dead and thats the sad of it really.
A VG commo ute has no enthusiast appeal what so ever for me.

[Sprintey]

Not so much 'Falcon's are dead' but a certain price point/power/comfort/carrying capacity/low maintenance costs/feeling to drive no longer exists in the market. Which is perplexing given the market is open to so many brands and models.

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

I remember in the decade leading up to closure, there were so many loud voices saying Australian cars were bogan, they were off the global pace, they were dinosaurs. As an immigrant (you grew here, I flew here) coming from a land of 2L milkboxes - this was Nirvana for what you got for the price! I'll never understand this cultural cringe where Australians put themselves down, so much of what's here is best in world. Or was.

I can think of one particular loud whiny bald voice on YouTube saying just that. All while recommending the worst new cars on the market, known for catastrophic engine failure at low mileages. Turns out he was/is a paid shill for said company. Funny that.

[Jastel]

Re Whynots post - Point 3 Fuel IS the main expense for Taxis...but not the only one.

These days you would have to get a Toyota Camry Hybrid for a Taxi...if you can wait long enough for the dealer to get one. Wait times are improving and there is some coming through from Police and Fleets now via Pickles/Manheim but at near new prices.

The reason you are seeing the weird Taxis like Ravs and T Cross is less waiting time for vehicles, but I havent seen any BYD's or ultra cheap hybrids yet...but someone will do it, at least until the first accident.

Modern cars get more complicated, and harder to fix for the backyarder like me, parts are scarce, cost a bomb and take ages to get here...ALL bad for Taxis.

Fully electric cars like Teslas are NOT suitable for Taxis, as apart from being stupidly expensive, you would need 2 of them, one for Day shift, then another to use at night while the day car recharges...assuming you use normal outlets, you also need a shed to park it in while its charging.

I have enough parts to assemble another Falcon in my shed so that is why I have persisted so long.

My 2014 Falcon cost me about $5000 as a repairable write off, after fixing up and taxifying say $8000, a new Camry cost $40000 so I have $32000 of savings already.
Thats a fair bit petrol...or even more LPG.

If I stay in the business I have to go Camry Hybrid but I wont be selling my personal Falcons either.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

I can think of one particular loud whiny bald voice on YouTube saying just that. All while recommending the worst new cars on the market, known for catastrophic engine failure at low mileages. Turns out he was/is a paid shill for said company. Funny that.

Is this Cadogan?
The guy who publicly admits to buying a Triton while slagging off better vehicles in the segment on the weekly.
I note he hasn’t touched on Hyundais engine failures, 5 year old cars with excess paint peel or impending class action but regularly tells watchers to steer clear of Ford, Toyota and anything Euro for lesser issues like recalls or individual accounts of poor after sales support.
Money talks.

[Sprintey]

What's the issue with the Hyundai engines?