Bathurst, Is It Still The Race?????

[Boosh Brus]

I haven't watched it for years either. Last time I cared was the 24 hour.
Perhaps this should be a poll.

[XWildGT]

i still love my bathurst BUT this is the first year i wont be going ive camped every year for years but last year done it for me it was to exspenive and to many rules for eg no byo at the track down the bottom had to buy beer in a plastic cup at $5.00 gone are the days of sitting at the track with you esky etc up top you could still do it but you where limited and the pits arent the same any more either you used to be able to get a free poster and a signeture with ease now you have to wait or buy somthing it is changing its all about the dollar

[Plugg3r]

I myself wouldn't like to see the Jap Crap contest the Aussie V8's.

I like the V8 Supercars with there own field BUT!
I would like to see showroom spec cars, non of this 5.0L block crap.

How can they be running 5.0L blocks when Holden are introducing a 7.0L block soon it's stupid.

It should be the 6.2L v 5.4L blocks.

But to bring back the jap crap is a negative.

[TZENU]

Nothing will change for me.. Have always and Will always watch the bathurst regardless... IMHO nowadays it seems to be more competitive

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

You'd have to attend the prody race in person because nobody would bother televising it....
Besides.. the Bathurst 12hr already caters to that catagory, if people are so into prody racing why don't they support the catagory because it already exists..

I would support the catagory if i was able to find it!!!!!!!!! :

One of the truths of it all is Holden and Ford did not want to pit there product against others so created the V8 Supercar catagory to corner the market, if you want a snippet of proof watch the last episode of RPM where the comentator posed the question "do you think with the current climate Ford and Holden would allow other manufactors into the supercar fraternity" (not exact words but close enough) and the answer from the V8 Supercar rep was "yes"........ so who is dictating the rules on what you watch, talk about stacking the deck.

So, if you want to keep your blinkers on and march to the tune of the big 2, go right ahead, but to say why dont people support the production catagory, it exists, well my freind so does the red beaked throat warbler of PNG, but try and find one!!!! thank you SBS. And also, how widly promoted and televised is the 24hr, i cannot remember a race been televised in its entirety.

Ford and Holden tied up our domestic racing to promote the sales of there own cars without the fear of competion, and in doing so killed the "Great Race", and that is the point i am trying to make, on Bathurst race day you used to have a 1/2 dozen races going on within the race and there was something racing for everyone.

If our Aussie product can not compeat with the rest of the world should we not lift our game.............no way!!!!! ban the competion, we cant loose

Anyhow with what has been discused lately, at the Darwin round and on RPM to name just two, i think the V8s in its present 2 maker format has a limited life, especially with coments from the likes of Dick Johnson when asked if he would consider racing another make, he said, "why not, its (the car) only a skin after all".......its a worry.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by XA351COUPE

I would support the catagory if i was able to find it!!!!!!!!! :

If our Aussie product can not compeat with the rest of the world should we not lift our game.............no way!!!!! ban the competion, we cant loose

it is out there, but contrary to popular belief, no one wants to watch it. if they did, it would get bigger. but compared to v8 supercars, no one wants it

in a country that has around 20 million people, how can ford or holden justify building a group a dominating car, when bmw, jaguar etc. have a market of much more than 20 million. a business needs to be careful where it spends it's money and building a hotshot group a weapon is not feasible in this country. especially when our cars are rear wheel drive v8's that are uncompetitive due to tyre size. maybe the euro's knew they couldn't beat us so they banned us. remember djr and gibson motorsport hosing off the euro's and japanense at their own game

how many other countries are running group a at present? did they all ban it for the same reasons, or was it just not feasible on a world stage (or any stage for that matter)

the fact is australians like big v8's, not super tourers or group a or anything else. the v8's are very popular with everyone who visits, including international drivers and f1 pit crews

[The Yeti]

I'd happliy see cars built to the standard they are raced at today in the V8SC but I would love to see more makes, like back in the days bevore V8SC when there was corollas, Jag's and BMW's kicking arround the mountain I havent sat down to watch a full round in a long time, I still watch Bathurst religesly but its boring now compaired to the days of old.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by XA351COUPE

I would support the catagory if i was able to find it!!!!!!!!! :

One of the truths of it all is Holden and Ford did not want to pit there product against others so created the V8 Supercar catagory to corner the market, if you want a snippet of proof watch the last episode of RPM where the comentator posed the question "do you think with the current climate Ford and Holden would allow other manufactors into the supercar fraternity" (not exact words but close enough) and the answer from the V8 Supercar rep was "yes"........ so who is dictating the rules on what you watch, talk about stacking the deck.

So, if you want to keep your blinkers on and march to the tune of the big 2, go right ahead, but to say why dont people support the production catagory, it exists, well my freind so does the red beaked throat warbler of PNG, but try and find one!!!! thank you SBS. And also, how widly promoted and televised is the 24hr, i cannot remember a race been televised in its entirety.

Ford and Holden tied up our domestic racing to promote the sales of there own cars without the fear of competion, and in doing so killed the "Great Race", and that is the point i am trying to make, on Bathurst race day you used to have a 1/2 dozen races going on within the race and there was something racing for everyone.

If our Aussie product can not compeat with the rest of the world should we not lift our game.............no way!!!!! ban the competion, we cant loose

Anyhow with what has been discused lately, at the Darwin round and on RPM to name just two, i think the V8s in its present 2 maker format has a limited life, especially with coments from the likes of Dick Johnson when asked if he would consider racing another make, he said, "why not, its (the car) only a skin after all".......its a worry.

Try: http://www.pcaa.com.au/

Commercial tv stations televise and promote events that attract the highest possible viewing audiences and events that attract the highest possible ad sales value for commercial breaks..

Its pure economics... if production class racing attracted the commercial TV advertising and associated viewers they'd push it.
The problem is it doesnt and it wont.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Sometimes i think we remember the "good old days" more because of the affection we have for those cars.. not because the racing was all that great....

Possibly true. I often watch, fondly, at my 68 to 72 bathurst tape. Moffat complaining about getting giant welts on his back as you couldn't make any changes to the seat. All he was allowed to do was put a little more foam on the centre console when he was pimpin it down Conrod Straight, right arm on the window, nodding to his bitches...

Perhaps if the production Bathurst wasn't a 12 hour enduro, more people would take notice. A few races I caught on 10 at Oran Park amongst what appeared to be production cars was fascinating. Watching a Clubby and a Rex battling through the back twisties to see the Rex get ahead, only to watch the Clubby run it down on the straight. The appeal is the positives and negatives between each car. V8 Supercars, they're virtually identical except from possibly a smidge difference in aero.

To me there's a fascination in putting cars I can drive out of a showroom onto a track and racing them. While I enjoy the spectacle of V8 supercars, I couldn't give two hoots as to whether Ford or Holden win.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Possibly true. I often watch, fondly, at my 68 to 72 bathurst tape. Moffat complaining about getting giant welts on his back as you couldn't make any changes to the seat. All he was allowed to do was put a little more foam on the centre console when he was pimpin it down Conrod Straight, right arm on the window, nodding to his bitches...

Perhaps if the production Bathurst wasn't a 12 hour enduro, more people would take notice. A few races I caught on 10 at Oran Park amongst what appeared to be production cars was fascinating. Watching a Clubby and a Rex battling through the back twisties to see the Rex get ahead, only to watch the Clubby run it down on the straight. The appeal is the positives and negatives between each car. V8 Supercars, they're virtually identical except from possibly a smidge difference in aero.

To me there's a fascination in putting cars I can drive out of a showroom onto a track and racing them. While I enjoy the spectacle of V8 supercars, I couldn't give two hoots as to whether Ford or Holden win.

Dont get me wrong, i like the concept of production class racing, but i guess im trying to look at this from a wider "bigger picture" perspective..
I just can't see how it would work from a spectator or commercial sense when the action is much much slower, and honestly less competitive than what we have now...
I think we're where we are now because we've learnt from the mistakes of the past, im just not sure how it will end up into the future..

[Wally]

That may be so, but having a double header with the prestige of the Bathurst name would draw a viewing audience.

As XA351COUPE rightly pointed out there were races within races with the original recipe. The slower cars made the faster cars work for their positions and the faster cars made sure they used the slower cars to block their immediate rivals. You could barrack for several different dirvers/makes/cars at the same time. You could delight at seeing some bignote import fall to bits and be assured Holden or Ford wouldn't put up with cars like the GTR winning, by building better cars.

As far as cost goes, well there were the two Monaros that were built to wave the Oz flag and wipe the floor with the hotshot cars from the larger markets.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Wally

That may be so, but having a double header with the prestige of the Bathurst name would draw a viewing audience.

There is 2 Bathursts already, one for the V8SC's and the other for the prody's.

Originally Posted by Wally

As XA351COUPE rightly pointed out there were races within races with the original recipe. The slower cars made the faster cars work for their positions and the faster cars made sure they used the slower cars to block their immediate rivals. You could barrack for several different dirvers/makes/cars at the same time.

And it was very dangerous.. with the faster drivers constantly complaining about the slower traffic... i think in this day and age of liability and safety it just wouldnt be allowed.

Originally Posted by Wally

You could delight at seeing some bignote import fall to bits and be assured Holden or Ford wouldn't put up with cars like the GTR winning, by building better cars.

As far as cost goes, well there were the two Monaros that were built to wave the Oz flag and wipe the floor with the hotshot cars from the larger markets.

The 2 monaro V8SC's were an expensive joke and shouldnt have ever been allowed to compete.
The car companies were the ones who pushed for Group A to go, the bottom line is neither Ford or Holden want to have to build or develop expensive homologation specials just to compete, nor build road going versions at a huge cost or loss. If you havent read the motorsport news lately Ford are rationalising and consolidating their spending, with Holden about to do the same... More-so than ever pressure is on to get non motorsport sponsorship for teams to survive...
This means 2 things:
1) dont ever expect to see factory showroom hotrods.. and
2) expect class freedoms and a parity system like what we already have to make it entertaining and competitive.

[outback_ute]

Originally Posted by shaynet

The days of stock Phase 3's racing against stock Hillman Imps are gone due to the speed differential and therefore the safety concerns.

Well that never actually happened because the Imp last raced at Bathurst in 1967... Mind you at Bathurst in (Easter) 2008 the Imp held the gap to Elsegood's GTHO from Repco corner to Forrest Elbow after it was overtaken on Mountain Straight (Elsegood's in-car footage is on youtube)

You can't compare the current production racing to V8SC, it is like comparing the AFL to your local suburban league. Cars are only one part of the equation, if the big teams and name drivers were involved in production racing then you could compare it.

I don't agree that the speed differential of different classes is an excuse, they still feature in sports car/GT racing at Le Mans and other places, it is an additional challenge.

Group A racing died in other parts of the world a couple of years before Australia (personally I think they made the turbo equivalency ratio too small and probably didn't consider AWD when the rules were set down), and that Australia was faced with adopting the 2.5L German rules, 2.0L UK rules or the 5L V8's. There was a proposal to run both the 2l & 5L together, but that didn't happen, we had 2 separate championships and Bathursts for a few years until the 2L series fell over.

I think that V8SC's have basically evolved into a local version of Nascar, and I would rather head back the other way.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

There is 2 Bathursts already, one for the V8SC's and the other for the prody's.

And it was very dangerous.. with the faster drivers constantly complaining about the slower traffic... i think in this day and age of liability and safety it just wouldnt be allowed.

The 2 monaro V8SC's were an expensive joke and shouldnt have ever been allowed to compete.
The car companies were the ones who pushed for Group A to go, the bottom line is neither Ford or Holden want to have to build or develop expensive homologation specials just to compete, nor build road going versions at a huge cost or loss. If you havent read the motorsport news lately Ford are rationalising and consolidating their spending, with Holden about to do the same... More-so than ever pressure is on to get non motorsport sponsorship for teams to survive...
This means 2 things:
1) dont ever expect to see factory showroom hotrods.. and
2) expect class freedoms and a parity system like what we already have to make it entertaining and competitive.

Well then I guess I'll just have to wait until someone reinvigorates the race, because I find it pointless and boring watching cars that are more or less divorced from the brand they represent anyway. Having said that my wife thought the old series was pointless and boring too.

Drivers didn't need Ford/Holden/Chrysler/Leyland etc sponsorship because it was the drivers who organsied their own finances. I like sports with a bit of mongrel in them, but the supercars are really just for Tom Slicks.

[Mercury 8]

4Vman is on the money.Production car racing is out there but no one supports it especially the fans.But looking at the bigger picture who would want to stick around in Australia and drive the production cars.If that was our main catergory you could garantee we would not have the likes of Lowndes,Skaife Tander, Whincup,Frosty,Courtney,Richo and the Kelly boys to name a few racing proddy cars,they would be off shore in a flash racing in race cars not the family hack.Production cars while they provide some alright racing don't make the right noises,are slow and which unless they are bashing into each other is boring and not to mention unreliable when pushed hard on a race track especially in the braking department.So let's change the exhausts,put some better brakes on them strengthen the engines and alas we are heading down the same road as what we have now.But for me I want to see the best race drivers we have racing hard which if we went down the production car road we would definately not have.Incidently I am not one who raves on about the proddy cars as people could well realise but I do attend the races when they are on which some who want them revived don't seem to judging by the dismal crowds so am not what you would call bias by any means.

[big_waity]

I much prefer watching 'budget built' 90's models cars racing in various production classes. Simple solution, if you aren't interested in v8 supercars, don't watch.

[DeansXR8]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Dont get me wrong, i like the concept of production class racing, but i guess im trying to look at this from a wider "bigger picture" perspective..
I just can't see how it would work from a spectator or commercial sense when the action is much much slower, and honestly less competitive than what we have now...
I think we're where we are now because we've learnt from the mistakes of the past, im just not sure how it will end up into the future..

couldnt agree more, the good ol days were tops, but i'm sure the people who pay the bills have decided this current series is probably the most profitable way to race. Unfortunate for us i guess, good for them though. Even though the both are struggling to keep costs down as it is.

[DJL351]

Like life, it is all about the money.

In the 50/60/70's and even early 80's is was about the racing. Hard fast, door handle to door handle, winner takes all.

If you got taken out, too bad, you should have driven better.

Now, it is all about money. They want all the cars being on camera, so the sponsors feel like their getting their pound of flesh.
The 'organisers' (I use the term loosely) want the championship to stretch out to the end, like some sort of long running day-time soap. (GT's penalty in NT is a prime example)

It's about saftey too. Look at some of the fotage from the late 70's, see what the drivers were doing, measure the lap times too... you see the speed has increased in a major way.
Hence, the requirements that have seen the cars turn in to the current 'race car'.

Look at the Brute Utes series. Because they've tightened down on the racing 'incidents' the drivers are being more careful. With the sponsor dollar being so important, teams can not afford not to be near the front. (resulting in racing that becomes dull quickly)

That aside, to put the passion back in to Bathurst, even in the current form, they need to, as I've been saying for years, make it a stand alone race.

No points, no chanpionships to worry about, the winner on the day is the winner.
Then, maybe we would see some interesting racing in the last 20 or so laps.

I guess I can only dream of the day.... :(

[DJR-351]

Firstly thanks to all for voicing your opinions...

I would like to just point a few things out about myself so anyone answering understands where i am coming from.

1. Do i watch the V8S?? Yes every chance i get.
2. Do i watch Bathurst?? Never miss one if i can help it.
3. I am a fully paid up Foundation member of DJR.
4. Also i happen to have friends to, who are into motor racing, Ford, Holden and Other Makes.
5. I am an aussie and i love V8 cars, i own them.

The reason i make point No 4 is i can honestly say at the present, ask the question "should more car makers be involved in the V8SC series" and around 70% will say yes.

Ask the same group "do they think it would make it more ineresting/exciting racing", around the same percentage will say yes again.

Five or six years ago the same group would have nearly all said no, me included, but now the general opinion is changing, the racing has become stale, WHO ONE??? RED OR BLUE.

On the last RPM edition one of the questions that was tabled was "what can be done to increase passing manouvers during racing to to make the racing more exciting", Hooray!!! they are starting to see the light........and as i mentioned before the introduction of other makes came up during the show and at the Darwin round.

So hopefully with the result of Holden and Ford reducing their backing, teams that have been dumped as seemingly not good enough will look elsewhere for cars/sponsership to remain in racing, and as a result, the return to a multi manufactor field will eventuate....

[Nikked]

Bathurst is still the race. 1000 k's and the last 10 laps is the final sprint to the finish... there is no longer the winning car having so many laps over the rest of the field, that's a bit boring.

The racing is closer, and the winner is still decided by the drivers who have the right setup, keep their nose clean and have that little bit of mountain luck. Just thinking about the cars doing 170km/h+ average (im guessing, lol) 161 times over the top to the mountain, on one of the most twisty rollacoster roads this side of the nurburgring, send chills up my spine.

V8's own the mountain, no other event pulls the crowds (Production 12hr etc), that says something...

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Bathurst is still the race. 1000 k's and the last 10 laps is the final sprint to the finish... there is no longer the winning car having so many laps over the rest of the field, that's a bit boring.

The racing is closer, and the winner is still decided by the drivers who have the right setup, keep their nose clean and have that little bit of mountain luck. Just thinking about the cars doing 170km/h+ average (im guessing, lol) 161 times over the top to the mountain, on one of the most twisty rollacoster roads this side of the nurburgring, send chills up my spine.

V8's own the mountain, no other event pulls the crowds (Production 12hr etc), that says something...

There is more than one car in the race, so what if the winner is laps ahead, i might not be supporting that car/driver, i and others may be giving support to someone who has entered the race knowing full well he/she is not a podium contender but is going out to give it 110%. That is a true sportsperson with true supporters that will still be there to cheer them over the finish line no matter what position they come in. The answer i hear most now when i ask who do you want to win is "dont care as long as its red", or blue depending on there leanings.

V8's own the mountain, no other event pulls the crowds (Production 12hr etc), that says something...[/QUOTE]

So i take it with the above statement that there was no crowds before the V8SC,s???? thats not how most remember it. The MOUNTAIN has always pulled the crowds and always will, with the V8s or not...........................

[xls3v]

watched a pre race entertainment thingo before the v8s or f1s race and they lined up a vl v8 and cosworth escort for a couple of laps great racing

cossie smashes the vl for power when on boost and then v8 vl beats it when it off boost

makes for entertaining racing not too brand evenly matched same weight shape power torque handling mixes it up a lil

like the good old days mini v valiant v capri v tory and so on small 4's 6's v8 turbos

[vanman_75]

bathurst is still bathurst
when you see those wheels off the ground in the shootout ,they are definately putting life to the test
its a mexican wave of screams around the track, and now big screens to scream at when you cant see them, we have awesome drivers in a unique car that are just death on wheels even with all the safety in place.
will i watch bathurst , hell yes.do i also agree with you yes i do
do i want young dick in a holden heck no ,do i want him driving an xr8 around a track , ??? no no and no
get trackside again smell them tyres and look at the determination in their eyes , it aint dead just needs some adjusting .

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by XA351COUPE

There is more than one car in the race, so what if the winner is laps ahead, i might not be supporting that car/driver, i and others may be giving support to someone who has entered the race knowing full well he/she is not a podium contender but is going out to give it 110%. That is a true sportsperson with true supporters that will still be there to cheer them over the finish line no matter what position they come in. The answer i hear most now when i ask who do you want to win is "dont care as long as its red", or blue depending on there leanings.

V8's own the mountain, no other event pulls the crowds (Production 12hr etc), that says something...

So i take it with the above statement that there was no crowds before the V8SC,s???? thats not how most remember it. The MOUNTAIN has always pulled the crowds and always will, with the V8s or not...........................[/QUOTE]

So on one point you don't like the follow the leader aspect, yet it's ok for one car to take the lead and hold it for a great percentage of the race and lap the field?
Some one may not support R.Kelly or Whincup and be more interested in the battles going on all through the field, say for 7th or 20th place, there is still a bit of racing going on...


Umm, thats refering to these days...The V8's pull more croweds, as did the Group A 3 or what ever...

[XR8putts]

Great, another one of these pointless threads.

Bathurst is bigger than ever, do a little research.

Production racing already exhists in Australia; go support it. Stop trying to change the most successful formula to date. If it's half as good as you think it'll be, then V8Supercars will die and everyone will flock to the all-mighty Production Series.

The days of what wins on Sunday sells on Monday are gone. Accept it.

If it we went to production racing tomorrow, the GTS with MRC would win every single race. FPV can't afford to put new wheels on thier FG range, you think they will be developing modern-age GTHOs to compete with the HSV GTS/WD40?

FFS get a clue some of you.

Is Bathurst, still Bathurst? Go and search for the threads on the great race from last year alone. I cried at the end of the 2006 race with Lowndes, hadn't cried in years and havn't cried since, and I know for a fact quite a few people on these forums alone did too - Yes it's still Bathurst, and it's better than ever. Old farts.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by puts99

Great, another one of these pointless threads.

Bathurst is bigger than ever, do a little research.

Production racing already exhists in Australia; go support it. Stop trying to change the most successful formula to date. If it's half as good as you think it'll be, then V8Supercars will die and everyone will flock to the all-mighty Production Series.

The days of what wins on Sunday sells on Monday are gone. Accept it.

If it we went to production racing tomorrow, the GTS with MRC would win every single race. FPV can't afford to put new wheels on thier FG range, you think they will be developing modern-age GTHOs to compete with the HSV GTS/WD40?

FFS get a clue some of you.

Is Bathurst, still Bathurst? Go and search for the threads on the great race from last year alone. I cried at the end of the 2006 race with Lowndes, hadn't cried in years and havn't cried since, and I know for a fact quite a few people on these forums alone did too - Yes it's still Bathurst, and it's better than ever. Old farts.

Well said. Apart from the GTS bit.

[XR8putts]

Originally Posted by Torxteer

Well said. Apart from the GTS bit.

Fine, replace GTS with the new 370kW HSV W427.

And if the thread starter got his way, then forget Ford and Holden;

You'd have to allow the BMW M5, C63 AMG, Nissan GTR and the rest of the world's finest, avaliable for sale in Aus.

He'd be lucky if a Ford finished in the top 20. The current V8SC formula is the way it is - for a reason, or should I say millions of reasons. It's not perfect, but it's bloody good.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by puts99

Great, another one of these pointless threads.

Bathurst is bigger than ever, do a little research.

Production racing already exhists in Australia; go support it. Stop trying to change the most successful formula to date. If it's half as good as you think it'll be, then V8Supercars will die and everyone will flock to the all-mighty Production Series.

The days of what wins on Sunday sells on Monday are gone. Accept it.

If it we went to production racing tomorrow, the GTS with MRC would win every single race. FPV can't afford to put new wheels on thier FG range, you think they will be developing modern-age GTHOs to compete with the HSV GTS/WD40?

FFS get a clue some of you.

Is Bathurst, still Bathurst? Go and search for the threads on the great race from last year alone. I cried at the end of the 2006 race with Lowndes, hadn't cried in years and havn't cried since, and I know for a fact quite a few people on these forums alone did too - Yes it's still Bathurst, and it's better than ever. Old farts.

You may think that being bombastic makes you right, but how do you know? The event is naturally bigger than it was in the sixties/seventies... the population is bigger and the media coverage wider. I would suspect on a prorata basis the the event is nowhere near as popular as in the 60's/70's.

Of course it's not Bathurst as it was; the cars are loosley based on production models , the engines are Nascar, the brakes are the same, the diffs are the same, the gearboxes are the same. The only thing that is close to production is the subframe.

What clue is it we are supposed to get? That the race was given over to private interests because the locals couldn't match it with the Sierras and GTRs? That it's success has been based on heavy finanacial support from Ford and Holden which is now looking precarious? That the hype and promotion that is afforded to the supercars isn't extended to the production car versions? That you probably have no idea whatsover of what the race used to be like and how half the beer drinking, non consumer male population would glue themselves to their lounge chairs on the day, with wives wandering around the house with pursed lips?

[DaveTE]

Originally Posted by |||

the safety car killed bathurst. now is the "stay on the lead lap until the final safety car then have a sprint race for the final 15 laps Supercheap Auto 1000"

That's right and what a great final 15 laps it was last year or maybe 30. Johnson leading with Lowndes closing in. Followed closely by Courtney and Murph. The safety car did kill the old Bathurst and brought the race into tne new version we see today. I loved watching the 24 hours enduros as well so if you want to see the older style then watch that type of racing with the different version of production cars. But it aint close.

[US kills Falcon]

The Bathurst 1000 race died when the 2 litres stopped racing with the 5 litres. Then it became a closed event when the sooks in the big teams had the once a year racers relegated to a support race.