Hydrogen .... Believe it or not. - Page 2

Franco Cozzo · 27-12-2013, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Hydrogen? No thanks.

image

I think thats why Hydrogen is stored at -270 degrees, which stops that problem.

GASWAGON · 27-12-2013, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max_torq

LNG will eventually become the fuel of trucks in this country, that will require infrastructure changes. If it can be done with LNG along the highways and hydrogen in the city..

Highway to Shell

Excellent news....Finally they're getting serious about a fuel we already have mountains of and should be fairly cheap too!

If I had some spare cash I would look into some Shell shares or LNG supplier shares of some sort too?

ryeman · 27-12-2013, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max_torq

LNG will eventually become the fuel of trucks in this country, that will require infrastructure changes. If it can be done with LNG along the highways and hydrogen in the city..

Highway to Shell

It seems US trucking is CNG requiring massive tanks.

GASWAGON · 27-12-2013, 10:58 AM

LNG is 'Liquid Natural Gas' so like LPG they can store much more fuel in whatever tanks they..... Range with CNG is pathetic.

ryeman · 27-12-2013, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max_torq

LNG will eventually become the fuel of trucks in this country, that will require infrastructure changes. If it can be done with LNG along the highways and hydrogen in the city..

Highway to Shell

Assuming LPG autogas disappearing will an LPI system be able to use LNG ?.

timeout · 27-12-2013, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EF_6

Same problems as CNG......Need to be stored at VERY LOW temps.....and tanks are quite heavy due to insulation being required....

LPG doesn't need either of these and we already have hundreds of pumps installed nation wide!

Beat me too it... Cng is a pain in the **** let alone trying to find a decent cost filling station for end user use.

2011G6E · 27-12-2013, 08:45 PM

Go have a quiet look at the size of the fuel tank that was actually in that 7 series BMW...you know, they V12 that could only put out the power of a six cylinder because of the very low energy content of hydrogen gas?

So many technical issues, so much cost, so many problems using an energy-negative fuel such as hydrogen (takes more power to produce the stuff than is contained in the end product).

Until massive technical breakthroughs are made in storage and production, it's a dream, or just something to interest people who think there are simple answers to the fuel question.

ryeman · 27-12-2013, 08:52 PM

^^^^so why are they asking for the infrastructure rollout?.
Merc BS?.

2011G6E · 27-12-2013, 09:35 PM

No idea. Probably won't be anything to do with passenger vehicles though. As I said, the fuel tank in the BMW...it took up most of where the back seat should be and half the boot...it was huge, and heavily insulated as it had to be to contain the cold fuel.
I never said that hydrogen couldn't be used in an internal combustion engine...it's just hopelessly inefficient as a fuel source.

I would hazard a guess that they're trying to access some of the billions floating around for anyone willing to use the word "green energy" in the title of their proposal...?

OzJavelin · 27-12-2013, 09:40 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car
.. Had these things running in 1963 and would run on almost any combustible liquid without mucking about .. See President of Mexico running his on tequila. Why mucking about with things like hydrogen when this technology already exists and could be "upgraded" to modern specifications?

2011G6E · 28-12-2013, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car
.. Had these things running in 1963 and would run on almost any combustible liquid without mucking about .. See President of Mexico running his on tequila. Why mucking about with things like hydrogen when this technology already exists and could be "upgraded" to modern specifications?

No real issue with turbines...except for the massive amounts of heat generated by them (as an engine and from the exhaust), and the prodigious fuel thirst. The heat is a fun one...I remember a motorbike article on the turbine powered Y2K superbike, and one of the owners...could have been Jay Leno actually...said they were sitting in traffic and noticed a car pull up close behind them, I think a Camry, and turned to see how close he was parked behind the bike...very close as it turned out, as cars will. He then noticed the heat from the two exhausts were buckling the front plastic bumper of the car close behind him...

OzJavelin · 30-12-2013, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

No real issue with turbines...except for the massive amounts of heat generated by them (as an engine and from the exhaust), and the prodigious fuel thirst. The heat is a fun one...I remember a motorbike article on the turbine powered Y2K superbike, and one of the owners...could have been Jay Leno actually...said they were sitting in traffic and noticed a car pull up close behind them, I think a Camry, and turned to see how close he was parked behind the bike...very close as it turned out, as cars will. He then noticed the heat from the two exhausts were buckling the front plastic bumper of the car close behind him...

Yes ..buckling plastic bumpers probably wasn't a problem in 1963 with the original turbine cars ..

IanC · 02-01-2014, 12:13 PM

Most hydrogen is produced from natural gas
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclop...gen-production
Why not just use the natural gas for fuel and not bother converting it to hydrogen? Yes, you can make hydrogen by electroylis from water but the reason they make it from natural gas is cost. Perhaps some time in the future there may be cheaper ways to make hydrogen such as biological processes which are under development in labs but so are better batteries for electric cars. Right now LPG is the only practical alternative to petrol and diesel. Anyway, whatever we use, you can bet the govt will put a big tax on it.

ryeman · 02-01-2014, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanC

Most hydrogen is produced from natural gas
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclop...gen-production
Why not just use the natural gas for fuel and not bother converting it to hydrogen? Yes, you can make hydrogen by electroylis from water but the reason they make it from natural gas is cost. Perhaps some time in the future there may be cheaper ways to make hydrogen such as biological processes which are under development in labs but so are better batteries for electric cars. Right now LPG is the only practical alternative to petrol and diesel. Anyway, whatever we use, you can bet the govt will put a big tax on it.

Sadly LPG post 2016/17 will be on the skids.
Turbo direct injection diesel and now petrol with all the other formats, hybrids etc and no local input will see to that.

bungarra · 02-01-2014, 06:38 PM

Japan is investing in Hydrogen infrastructure and pushing for hydrogen fuel cell technology which will "eventually" be able to allow better storage and performance form hydrogen. Israel is already running trials of fuel cell vehicles but the issue is size of the cells at present but they estimate in 5 years fuels cells will be small enough and economical enough to be an everyday use.

http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2...cell-stations/

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/21/...s-no-platinum/

Yellow_Festiva · 02-01-2014, 08:09 PM

CNG was what they used in Pakistan when I was there. Can't recall seeing LPG at all? Lots of cars there run on the stuff, got some pics of the tank and filler setup in a civic I think?

They have been using it for ages, I guess to them it's like how we see LPG. I did save things like cost of conversion, economy compared to petrol and cost per litre (I think it may have been sold by the kg?!?) On my phone but that was 3 or 4 phones ago now.

ryeman · 02-01-2014, 08:14 PM

Interesting time for the local servo coming up it seems....

GASWAGON · 02-01-2014, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

CNG was what they used in Pakistan when I was there. Can't recall seeing LPG at all? Lots of cars there run on the stuff, got some pics of the tank and filler setup in a civic I think?

They have been using it for ages, I guess to them it's like how we see LPG. I did save things like cost of conversion, economy compared to petrol and cost per litre (I think it may have been sold by the kg?!?) On my phone but that was 3 or 4 phones ago now.

CNG is o.k for around town/local driving but its range is VERY limited...At least LPG you can pull 400-500k's per tank if not more with the new injection systems.

ryeman · 02-01-2014, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EF_6

CNG is o.k for around town/local driving but its range is VERY limited...At least LPG you can pull 400-500k's per tank if not more with the new injection systems.

......only while it lasts, it going going......

GASWAGON · 02-01-2014, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryeman

......only while it lasts, it going going......

Not sure yet Ryeman give it some time for pump prices to come back down. Plus lets see what happens with Abbotts latest idea of investing in LPG technologies......It really can go two ways......Either exponential or yes it may gradually die off...

Eastern countires are actually taking on LNG and LPG bigtime for buses and infrastructure etc so why cant OZ do the same?

This is why we all need to sign that petition I posted and get as many lpg users as possible to stand up and demand some answers and changes!

ryeman · 02-01-2014, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EF_6

Not sure yet Ryeman give it some time for pump prices to come back down. Plus lets see what happens with Abbotts latest idea of investing in LPG technologies......It really can go two ways......Either exponential or yes it may gradually die off...

Eastern countires are actually taking on LNG and LPG bigtime for buses and infrastructure etc so why cant OZ do the same?

This is why we all need to sign that petition I posted and get as many lpg users as possible to stand up and demand some answers and changes!

Abbott hasn't got an idea but he is being propositioned by Gas industry which seems fantastic.....I mean the original meaning of the word.
The only industry he wants to meddle in relates to CO2 emissions.
But I certainly hope I'm wrong.

KiwiKilda · 02-01-2014, 11:13 PM

what's wrong with methane
there has always been
a never ending supply
coming out of Canberra

What colour are methane flames?

GK · 02-01-2014, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

What is the future for LPG in this country once the LPG Falcon and Commodore are gone?

Hopefully the pumps (at least some) will stay and the price will go down.

GK

2011G6E · 03-01-2014, 10:40 AM

The Prius had barely come out in large numbers before other manufacturers were getting far better fuel economy figures out of cars with "normal" drivetrains like small turbo diesels and petrol engines with interesting new technologies in them, combined with better gearboxes.

With LPG, it probably made sense back when 10ltr/100km was an unobtainable dream in anything but some funny little tiny foreign cars, but now if a manufacturers large sedan doesn't get way better than 10/100 on the highway, it's vilified as old fashioned and hopelessly out of date. Our G6E used to amaze me by sitting down on 8/100 when our four cylinder 1982 Celica can't get anywhere near that good a fuel economy.

With the price rises of LPG, and the amazing economy of "normal" cars, there's no real benefit of going the LPG route anymore.

Hydrogen has a whole other long list of limitations and problems of its own.

chamb0 · 04-01-2014, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

BMW had a hydrogen 7 series a while back, it was on youtube.

I think the problem is it has to be stored at a really low temperature, the figure -270 degrees comes to mind for some reason, or I may be thinking of something else.

The liquid-burning BMW Hydrogen 7 came out nearly 8 years ago, and wasn't efficient or practical enough to get up off the ground as a mass-produced vehicle. Things seem to have come a way since then though with fuel cell tech. Hyundai is getting ready to release the iX35 Fuel Cell (Tucson) SUV later this year as the first mass market hydrogen car, available on lease in California only for around $500 per month including maintenance and fuel costs. Toyota and Honda say they are close on its heels with their fuel cell models due to follow in 2015.

Rather than combusting liquid H it uses a fuel cell to drive an electric motor and appears to have a practical range (hard to know who to believe though), top speed and refueling time. It carries around 5kg of H2 on board and the setup doesn't look to be badly intrusive on cargo space - it's diminished by 1.9 cubic feet (54 litres?) compared with a standard Tucson.

A lack of hydrogen stations outside a couple of LA looks like a major current limitation although apparently there are more planned throughout San Fransisco and LA. Will this restricted coverage along with a limited build number of 1000 vehicles in California see it go the way of the BMW 7 or will it become a viable alternative?

Crazy Dazz · 05-01-2014, 06:52 AM

There's no such thing as liquid hydrogen, it doesn't exist. Even liquifying Helium is extraordinarily difficult.

As a fuel for internal combustion, Hydrogen is difficult and rather pointless. The push for Hydrogen centres around fuel-cells, and the use of non-fossil energy. Unfortunately generating Hydrogen from electrolysis of water is extremely inefficient and expensive. Ironically, the only commercially viable method of producing Hydrogen gas is by burning natural gas in such a way that only the carbon is oxidised. But of course you'd be better off just running your car on the natural gas.

**SSD-85** · 05-01-2014, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

There's no such thing as liquid hydrogen, it doesn't exist.

Really? You sure about that?

http://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/fluid.cg...a*s&STUnit=N/m

ryeman · 05-01-2014, 09:06 AM

Nor 'liquid' gas.....oh.....err....

Franco Cozzo · 05-01-2014, 10:28 AM

Maybe we should start using our farming land to make ethanol based fuels, since majority of the **** you buy in the supermarket tastes like crap and comes from overseas.

I believe some of the VE Commodores can run on E85 from factory?

GASWAGON · 05-01-2014, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Maybe we should start using our farming land to make ethanol based fuels, since majority of the **** you buy in the supermarket tastes like crap and comes from overseas.

I believe some of the VE Commodores can run on E85 from factory?

Ye they have E85 badges on the boot......they didn't sell many at all, the whole concept fell on its *** because E85 is BS......Its highly corrosive on fuel lines and system parts and Its only a few cents cheaper but you use more of it to go the same distance!

I read a news article where it said Melbourne drivers and servos basically dumped the whole Ethanol idea because they couldn't see the benefits of it.

Shell removed all there E85 pumps too!