AU Turbo

[stiddy]

Caspers on the money..
Wouldnt even bother trying forced induction unless you have atleast 10k aside.
Having said that though, 10k is a cheap.

[Duffman]

Sadly Caspers figures are very correct. Your on the ball casper but many who haven't done it before will tell you otherwise until they have tried it then wished they had listened. I know my diff/box will be next but have the stuff prepared for when the day comes.

There is alot of dodgy information out there and posts with people saying the stock engine/box will take 250rwkw day in day out but I have no idea where they pull these figures from.

[Christiaan]

interested in this ..

i'm so considering just getting a ba xr6 turbo and be done with it..

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Sadly Caspers figures are very correct. Your on the ball casper but many who haven't done it before will tell you otherwise until they have tried it then wished they had listened. I know my diff/box will be next but have the stuff prepared for when the day comes.

There is alot of dodgy information out there and posts with people saying the stock engine/box will take 250rwkw day in day out but I have no idea where they pull these figures from.

Unfortunatly I've never been in the position to do this myself however I am under no illusions as to what it will take. I've done a lot of homework on it over the years and, more importantly, made note of a lot of mistakes made by others. Simple fact is that no setup that is done for under $10K has even come close to being worth it.... most would be outpaced by some of the quicker NA I6's these days with a lot less hassles and drama's to deal with. Even some of the more expensive setups have, while showing plenty of power, eventually succumbed to the uglyness that is a massive failure due to bad parts choice (stock rods will NOT do), bad tuning (ping ping ping BANG) or a mixture of both (ping ping BANG.. oh look, speed holes! : )

I am amazed to see people still doing it on the cheap and have yet to see someone do so and get an amazing system with no drama's. It just doesnt happen.

[TURBOTAXI]

Casper - I think half the fun is trying it. So what - you blow some stuff up along the way. I didn start by moding a pretty $15,000 car, it was clapped out $4000 1999 ex taxi. I would love to be able to put into words the difference in the drive and the satisfaction I have whevever I plant the foot and the car gets the boost up and goes.

I think when people shoot for big power they are bound to end up with a breakage, but thats the price for having a monster power car - just about any monster car.

I have read that 200rwkw isnt worth it - Thats subjective, to extract 200rwkw from a NA 4.0I6 would be almost as dear I imagine - I am not sure it has been done yet?

[Duffman]

I hope that works as photobucket is down, actually if you click on the picture you can see all three pics and they come up a decent size.

[TURBOTAXI]

Yee ha! Love that oil on the pistons. Did you ever take the oil fill cap off disconnect the pcv and blip the throttle to check for blowby?

[stiddy]

A properly fitted catch can set up should get rid of crank pressure no?

Or is there another way to do it..

I remember when I was going down this route, and I will be doing it again.. it cost me a little over $7000 just in parts.. and that didnt include anything to do with the engine or driveline, that was just parts to bolt on and go..
I sold the kit for $6000 due to insurance reasons.

[TURBOTAXI]

Originally Posted by stiddy

A properly fitted catch can set up should get rid of crank pressure no?

Or is there another way to do it..

I remember when I was going down this route, and I will be doing it again.. it cost me a little over $7000 just in parts.. and that didnt include anything to do with the engine or driveline, that was just parts to bolt on and go..
I sold the kit for $6000 due to insurance reasons.

Providing the engine was undamaged yes. There is some debate about what a properly fitted catch can is.

Looking at Duffmans stripped down engine I suspect he has hurt a ring or a piston. I would suspect that engine is beyond what a catch can could help (thats if he didnt have one)

Mine goes from rear breather to can and then the other side goes to the air intake between the airbox and the turbo.

For this to work the line cant face the inflowing air or it will have the effect of increasing the crank pressure.

The theory is the light suction of the intake helps to evacuate crank gas/pressure.

To be legal, the catch can must go full loop with no gasses being expelled into the atmosphere. There are plenty I see with a breather on top.

Can wait to see this car come together.

[The Monty]

I believe he had a catch can in place when this happened.

[Christiaan]

just a quick question.. you say the engine died due to bad blowby .. is that the only reason?

im looking at buying a turbo AU atm, but this thread kind of scares me.. can't you stop the engine pressurizing by installing the catch can in a different way?

what could have been done to stop this happening?

[Duffman]

Was it installed with catch can before it got pulled apart

Can anyone recommend a decent cam that might suit the engine with a turbo, thinking of replacing it while its out

[waggaclint]

just looking at that pic... are you also running 2 extra injecters in the inlet???

[Duffman]

Yup, I had bigger injectors/fuel pump but they went that way instead

[Christiaan]

just a quick question.. you say the engine died due to bad blowby .. is that the only reason?

im looking at buying a turbo AU atm, but this thread kind of scares me.. can't you stop the engine pressurizing by installing the catch can in a different way?

what could have been done to stop this happening?

Originally Posted by Casper

$2000 has bought him a mess load of drama's, a car that the cops would throw off the road in a heartbeat and high 14's at the track. I dont see that as worth it at all.

Thank god i didnt build my car to impress you.
Mess load of dramas? Care to elaborate?
Cops would throw off the road in a minute? so far so good, even had cops spot the cooler and ask questions.
Still on the road.
14.6 on a low compression bottom end and 5psi, reliably, every day, driven to and from work, while spending 45cpl.
it was worth every cent of that $2k with a bucket load more potential then any n/a 6


*prepares another account*

[Casper]

Originally Posted by AirRoad

Thank god i didnt build my car to impress you.
Mess load of dramas? Care to elaborate?
Cops would throw off the road in a minute? so far so good, even had cops spot the cooler and ask questions.
Still on the road.
14.6 on a low compression bottom end and 5psi, reliably, every day, driven to and from work, while spending 45cpl.
it was worth every cent of that $2k with a bucket load more potential then any n/a 6


*prepares another account*

Its not a case of impressing me or not, its a case of results. This wasnt a personal dig at your car John, its simply a statement that creating a high performance (greater than 250rwkw and 12 second ET) turbo I6 is not something that can be done cheaply. The fact is that your car is not close to running 250rwkw or 12 second ET's in its current setup and has sufferened from a number of issues relating to the turbo install. To elaborate:
Deca day. Last I saw your car was having all sorts of issues with cooling and backfiring. One of those backfires was enough to scare the hell out of me driving past and put up a smokescreen that was black as night. After the event you yourself mentioned to me a number of issues it was having at the time.
You may drive it to work and back every day, thats fine, but you can do that in a Lada, a Daewoo or any other appliance. The fact is that putting a turbo on a Falcon is a performance mod and nothing else. In that respect the car needs to be pushed to get it to perform. From what I've seen of your car (and nearly every other budget turbo home install) that sort of pushing opens up a pandora's box of issues and reliability questions. You say it has more potential than a NA I6 and that may be so but not without addressing some of those questions and spending more money on it. As it stands now I would say that it is an operation turbo setup done for $2K that is at its effective limit of capability without more money being poured into it. As far as budget installs goes, yours is actually one of the better ones by far. The problem is that the engine, transmission, ecu and fuel system on a standard Falcon, be it an XA, EF or AU, simply is not capable of being converted to a turbo setup, having the wick turned up and expected to operate reliably and smoothly as a road car while still having the performance and "fun factor" to match.... at least not without spending significant amounts of money. Therefore potential is only measured in dollars. No more dollars, no more potential. If you are happy with its performance as it stands then there is no issue... but you cannot claim it to have more "potential" than an NA I6 either as many of them are already considerably quicker and you dont have the option of just turning up the boost without putting the driveline at major risk.

As for the comment about the cops throwing it off the road. You, me and every one else knows the first cop that has a bug up his butt could canary your car so hard it would be going home on a flatbed. No engineering cert on the turbo, mods to the ecu system... it would be a no brainer. The fact it hasnt happened is not the issue, the issue is that at any given time you could be pulled over and once that bonnet is open there is no hiding whats there. If an RTA car pulls you up its all over.

Deca day = Belt came off which in turn meant no water pump = overheat..
unrelated to turbo install
the overheating caused by the belt coming off caused the backfiring.

the other issue was water getting into a relay when the car overheated.

all of which were completely unrelated to the turbo install.

the belt came off because of the balancer not being 100% alligned (happened pre-turbo too)

every time i drive it, it cops a flogging, to and from work involves plenty of WOT and i enjoy every minute of it.
be it a 14 second car or a 12 second car, the $2k was deffinately worth spending, AND the fuel system is tehre to support greater power levels then i currently have.

with regards to the cops.. i guess the same can be said with any car.
if a cop wants to do you for something, he will.
the turbo gear can be pulled off in a matter of a day and the ECU is standard.

Fact is, you CAN turbo a falcon for cheap.
you CAN get decent performance out of a cheap setup.
BUT
you have to be patient.
you have to be lucky
you have to do some yourself
you will most likely use 2nd hand parts

stock motors can last, but theres a limit on what they can do!
not all stock motors are the same :P

[Casper]

All well and good John but, in the end, it is simply a setup that is not able to reliably make big power as it stands. As I said, as far as home install's go yours is one of the better ones I've seen and there is no doubting it was done on a very good "bang for your buck" budget.
End result though is that you have a turbo Falcon that is no quicker than many I6 NA Falcons and have taken on all the issues of insurance, rego and EPA that go with it. They may never be a drama (I hope they never are) however it is a potential mine field if it all goes horribly wrong.
You do have the potential to increase your power dramatically however that involves significant costs which brings us all straight back to the point. You cannot have a significantly powerful and reliable turbo'ed I6 (250/12) without spending an equally significant amount of money.
Can you turbo an I6 for $2000? Yup, certainly can.
Will it be significantly better than an NA I6? No, not really.

Can you turbo an I6 for $2000? Yup, certainly can.
Will it be significantly better than an NA I6? No, not really.

we'll see
my dud motor manages to be just as quick as your drag optimised driveline & bolt ons.
leaving your car without its bolt ons, slap on my '$2k turbo kit'
see where it puts you

edit: i don't need ur strong auto either.. just the stall will do

[Duffman]

Lets be nice guys!

A cheap install comes down to

- how much you know
- how much you can do yourself
- how cheaply you can source the parts
- and the condition of your engine
- the state you live in and the laws that apply

The big thing that can destroy a cheap turbo install is labour and mistakes.

Anyway in the end falcon engines are cheap so you can always make mistakes.

Soo can anyone recommend a good camshaft to go with the turbo? Id love to add a manual in but I did this on my ea and it was a pain… trying to hold back again haha!

[Christiaan]

duffman, you've missed my questions twice now ...

here it is again ...

just a quick question.. you say the engine died due to bad blowby .. is that the only reason?

im looking at buying a turbo AU atm, but this thread kind of scares me.. can't you stop the engine pressurizing by installing the catch can in a different way?

what could have been done to stop this happening?

i'm nice to Casper...
He's just scared of my car :P
its held together by dirt!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by AirRoad

Can you turbo an I6 for $2000? Yup, certainly can.
Will it be significantly better than an NA I6? No, not really.

we'll see
my dud motor manages to be just as quick as your drag optimised driveline & bolt ons.
leaving your car without its bolt ons, slap on my '$2k turbo kit'
see where it puts you

edit: i don't need ur strong auto either.. just the stall will do

I'm not quite sure where this is going and I dont really want to get into a "mine v's yours" debate as I have, from day one, been heading in a very different direction than you as far as car mods and goals. I have said for a long time my build is a long term one with things being done now that will not be put into use for quite some time. I would say that the transmission being built for 600hp is probably a bit of massive overkill for what the car is now and will be for quite some time.
If I were to take it back to stock and just aim for a 14.5 second NA car I could do it for around $3000 so long as I did the work myself (apart from the tune) and took the risk of something breaking.
That said if I were to take all the cars bolton's off and put on your turbo kit I'd probably end up in a very similar position to where I am now.. probably a little quicker if I wanted to risk the motor with some more boost (remember, taking off the boltons means I loose my edit... and that means tuning is a drama). I would also then have an entirely different set of issues that I dont have now as far as insurance and roadworthy.

In a nutshell though:
You have proven that you can turbo a car for $2000 however it has limitations
For $2000 a turbo'ed I6 is not going to be significantly quicker than a NA I6 with bolt ons
Bang for the buck the "$2000 home turbo kit" will probably work out better then the "$2000 home NA mods" but with greater risk associated.
You cannot make big power and quick ET's with a cheap turbo install without putting the entire driveline at an unacceptable risk factor (it will break at some stage).

As for my stall... you couldnt run it to be honest. For 3 reasons.
1) Your transmission would instantly go into LHM and never come out of it. You would need to spend money on the E series edit and custom tune (or chiptorque and custom tune) to resolve that
2) You transmission would be dead in a matter of months. Theres a good reason it was built strong.... this stall is not "transmission friendly".
3) Its custom.. it only fits the transmission its in. Its not "swappable" to any other BTR (nor can I stick a stock converter back in mine without some changes to it).
If you could run it though it would certainly get your car off the line in a hell of a hurry... but the odds of something breaking would raise dramatically too.

: at being scared of your car John. My car is WAY dirtier than yours anyhow. :P

[private9]

Originally Posted by AirRoad

i'm nice to Casper...
He's just scared of my car :P
its held together by dirt!

And cable ties, it is an eseries after all! - Sorry John, couldn't resist mate!

i wasnt saying slap your actual stall in my car and away i go.
but the gains i'd get by having a high stall and higher ratio diff gears would provide some massive benefits considering how lazy my car is off the line.

i know this isnt a mine vs yours and i know you have way different plans.
but thats what makes this discussion and comparisons so interesting.
14.5 @ ~93mph vs 14.6 @ 97mph from very different methods.

You cannot make big power and quick ET's with an expensive turbo install without putting the entire driveline at an unacceptable risk factor.

i guess it comes down to what you include in your 'turbo install'
you can easily spend $7000 on a turbo kit, management, tuning, manifolds, coolers, piping, exhausts, wastegates and run into the exact same problems as someone with a '$2k turbo kit'
my $2k turbo kit has the potential to shove 15-20psi into a 4.0 and most likely run 11's or 12's, but it won't be the turbo setup limiting it.

[The Monty]

Originally Posted by Casper

You cannot make big power and quick ET's with a cheap turbo install without putting the entire driveline at an unacceptable risk factor (it will break at some stage).

I think you better rephrase that into:
"You cannot make big power and quick ET's with cheap mods without putting the entire driveline at an unacceptable risk factor (it will break at some stage).


Sorry to say Casper, but I think you are living a lie if you think the same power in a N/A car is not going to hurt anything. Power is power. The fact remains that if you spend money on each, be it turbo, N/A or Supercharger, you have to be prepared to spend money on other things, not just the engine. It always seems that everytime someone says they want to turbo there falcon, there are a few people (always the same ones), who say "It cant be done", "Your engine wont last", or "Its not worth it", and its always the people on this forum who HAVENT got a turbo, or HAVENT tried to go the turbo route, or HAVENT wanted to even go turbo,are the ones saying it. It seems that if someone is going to do a mod that could see them go faster, that may make them even have more satisfaction then someone else, or whatever, there is always someone there, that doesnt have that mod to shoot them down. Id like to ask, Casper, how many turbo AU's have you had? How many have you helped build? How many have you helped re-build after they didnt work? Or is it just a case of, if I cant have it, why should others?

I hope the rebuild goes well Duffy, it was looking great last time I saw it, and Im sure it will go good again soon.

I know there are risks when turboing a car, but the risks are still there regardless of the aspiration, if you are trying to go faster, you will break things, its just a matter of when.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by The Monty

I think you better rephrase that into:
"You cannot make big power and quick ET's with cheap mods without putting the entire driveline at an unacceptable risk factor (it will break at some stage).


Sorry to say Casper, but I think you are living a lie if you think the same power in a N/A car is not going to hurt anything. Power is power. The fact remains that if you spend money on each, be it turbo, N/A or Supercharger, you have to be prepared to spend money on other things, not just the engine. It always seems that everytime someone says they want to turbo there falcon, there are a few people (always the same ones), who say "It cant be done", "Your engine wont last", or "Its not worth it", and its always the people on this forum who HAVENT got a turbo, or HAVENT tried to go the turbo route, or HAVENT wanted to even go turbo,are the ones saying it. It seems that if someone is going to do a mod that could see them go faster, that may make them even have more satisfaction then someone else, or whatever, there is always someone there, that doesnt have that mod to shoot them down. Id like to ask, Casper, how many turbo AU's have you had? How many have you helped build? How many have you helped re-build after they didnt work? Or is it just a case of, if I cant have it, why should others?

I hope the rebuild goes well Duffy, it was looking great last time I saw it, and Im sure it will go good again soon.

I know there are risks when turboing a car, but the risks are still there regardless of the aspiration, if you are trying to go faster, you will break things, its just a matter of when.

Actually, I have no argument with what you have said at all. If someone were to try and hit a stock driveline with a 200hp shot of Nitros or cram a massively worked 351 into car that had a stock I6 in it I'd be inclined to say that something is going to break in one hell of a hurry.
The phrase "You cannot make big power and quick ET's with cheap mods without putting the entire driveline at an unacceptable risk factor (it will break at some stage)." is probably an overall more accruate coverall, no argument.

The thing with turbo's is that there is a lot of people doing them and not too many that are upgrading the driveline at the same time. Not to many are doing it with V8's or Nitros at this stage. The only reason I have said turbo is because thats what this thread is about... its not an attack at turbo's at all.

Originally Posted by The Monty

Or is it just a case of, if I cant have it, why should others?

You're kidding right? Look at what mods I've already done.... I could very easily have done a snort turbo kit by now. The reason I havent is I would have the same issue as everyone else.. heaps of potential power and no driveline to put it through.

Will I go turbo route? Who knows... nothing is carved in stone.

[stiddy]

Originally Posted by The Monty

Sorry to say Casper, but I think you are living a lie if you think the same power in a N/A car is not going to hurt anything. Power is power..

Umm wrong.
Power is not power when comparing N/A to Force fed.
Plus its not even power that breaks things, its the torque.
You get a hell of a lot more torque from being forced which tends to break things.
N/A 180rwkw - 400nm
F/I 180rwkw - 600nm+

I dont see the point in turboing a falcon if your going to use cheapo 2nd hand bits and be stuck in the 14's.
If your going to turbo a falcon, do it properly, get the engine management and fuel system done for christs sake. Its more the tune or lack of it that kills an engine more than scrap yard bolt on turbo kits.
But if thats what some of you people are happy with then good for you.. I'll be the one in the crowd along with 10000 others laughing at you blow black smoke, backfire and fart your way down the 1/4 to a riviting mid 14second pass. :