Now it is the Forum Police jumping out and stopping us - Page 2

Iphido · 12-11-2006, 09:03 PM

I thought the previous thread was still interesting reading and hadn't degenerated completely. Sure a few wayward posts were in there, but they were edited/deleted and thread seemed to be on track. Maybe thats just me, the management can run this forum as they wish.

And I feel there was much to discuss on the issue and was disapointed it was cut short.

Back to the origional point. Can workcover itself be in hot water over this issue as well? It seems that the police knew it was issue, the public knew it was an issue, yet nothing was done. How can this happen? This is akin to a known drug lab being rubber stamped to conduct business in a legitmate manner. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Surely this has to go to the highest levels? Find where procedure and the checks broke down and fixed. We can't afford to lose officers like this and create so much grief for so many yet backed by the state government, which should be acting as a model entity for this.

Which brings up the old story about a workcover officer giving a fine to a officer for not wearing a vest when writing him a traffic fine. Which I belive it was in this board some connected people stated that the cops interned filed charges for immitating a workcover inspector (he was actually a junor inspector or so the story goes). Perhaps in light of recent events, issues such as those should be taken more seriously and both workcover and the police should have followed it up properly instead of burying the issue and undermining the entire worksafe scheme.

This has bad management and politics written all over it. At state government level, at senior police and workcover level and lower levels as well.

We shouldn't have to wait for fatalities for this to become a issue. Near misses should be reported. The whole dam safety system is setup for this to essentially be impossible to do in any company (or entity).

it also raises the issue of police pursuits and driving manner. Ambos and fires are limited to only so much above the posted limit and limited in what they can do where as the police seem to have free reign (either offically or unoffically). Even tho the other services have arguably more important life critical emergencies to attend.

Please note my comments are targeted at senior management in both workcover and the police and not to front line/beat cops are merely following orders and procedures.

XA-Coupe · 12-11-2006, 09:12 PM

Too hard to quote, but you pointed out that it hadn'r degenrated completly but it was on the way.
I find it troubling that people cannot discuss anything about police without it turning sour. Police DO make mistakes and there is reason to discuss it but it ALWAYS ends up in the same way. I have been involved with forums for over 5 years now and it has never failed to go that way, regardless of the intention of the original poster.
It is an emotional issue but it seems too emotional for some people.

new2ford · 12-11-2006, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iphido

I thought the previous thread was still interesting reading and hadn't degenerated completely. Sure a few wayward posts were in there, but they were edited/deleted and thread seemed to be on track. Maybe thats just me, the management can run this forum as they wish.

Good and sensible post Iphido. Keepleft I hope you saved the other thread because it's gone. While those who don't like things the way they are could go jump as some have said, I see a good internet forum as also being a democracy in which moderators edit the excesses of discussion but don't censor the whole thing. That leads to something that is the opposite of democracy but I don't want to use immoderate words here! I'm a moderator of another forum myself so I sympathise with the difficult job the mods do voluntarily.

Keep editing out the bad posts but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. That thread, in edited form, could have been useful material for an inquiry. Pity.

XA-Coupe · 12-11-2006, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by new2ford

Good and sensible post Iphido. Keepleft I hope you saved the other thread because it's gone. While those who don't like things the way they are could go jump as some have said, I see a good internet forum as also being a democracy in which moderators edit the excesses of discussion but don't censor the whole thing. That leads to something that is the opposite of democracy but I don't want to use immoderate words here! I'm a moderator of another forum myself so I sympathise with the difficult job the mods do voluntarily.

Keep editing out the bad posts but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. That thread, in edited form, could have been useful material for an inquiry. Pity.

The thread, in edited form and printed out would have been worth wiping your butt with. It has no value at all for any inquiry.
I really think some people take this too seriously, No coroner or investigator is going to read print outs from internet forums in this case unless someone was a witness and didn't own up. There will be forums all over the place discussing this.

BENT_8 · 12-11-2006, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laminge

David

The thread was not closed because of your initial post, it was closed because of some of the discussion that followed.

I also appreciate the passion you have expressed your concern that it may have been.

I have no problems with this thread either, however if a threads runs off track because of these post we have 2 options, close it or remove the posts.

Depending how quickly the moderators or admins step into the thread will result on what action is taken.

One thing I will make very clear though it is the admins and moderators that will steer the course of discussion based on our internal guidelines and determine if the thread is acceptable both to subject and content from members posting in same.

Since day one we have not tolerated police bashing on the forums, and I have no hesitation is saying that several discussions have been closed and removed because of this, this will continue.

I also pity the fewls who think that the can post what they want and then come back later and claim that it was just in jest, they are not welcome on these forums and can go to one of the many others that are in operation - if they want a helping hand I will remove their access here.

I think most of you whom claim the right to be derogatory, insulting and basically superficial miss the point that your right to access these forums stop once you overstep these boundaries.

I look forward to informative discussions, not the dribble that I have read of late.

Take LSTerritoryGhia post with regards to B2TF, that certainly is not acceptable, if he has an issue with the comments and cannot be civil enough to effectively discuss it apart from telling him to get of his high horse, then I must say its a perfect example of my comments above.

Mowog may think it amusing to change his signature after he saw fit to say what he did in the thread that was removed in the territory forums, that's fine, it just proves my point.

People may decide to leave the forums at some stage, so be it, I have no hesitation or second thought though removing the trash from the forums, whether that be someone with 1 post or 5000.

Edit and in the time it has taken me to draft this reply I am ashamed to note some of the replies preceding it.

That all sounds fine but the problem i have is that the thread was closed with no explination for it apart from a few things were appauling.
What was appauling is a mystery to me, admittedly the stuff removed at the start i did not see but everything else was within reason.
My points on the workcover system, whilst not relevant to this poor chaps passing was only in response to keepleft's comments and hardly meant to detract from this terrible happening.
I feel however that because i viewed the conduct to be relevant to the outcome, i am seen as cop bashing.
I'm not accusing anyone of actually saying that about my view, but the way the thread was closed left me thinking this the case.

What i will say is, surely there must be alternatives to officers jumping out on motorways etc.

Perhaps a moderator should discuss their views with another mod before making a deciscion for us all and offer more than a personal difference as the reason.

Steve

Laminge · 12-11-2006, 09:48 PM

Bent 8

Yes it may be fine but that's the way it is, I don't recall labelling your post out and am somewhat bewildered at your reply.

Cop Bashing is one thing, discussion is another.

The issues discussed here would support that and your post.

Again I draw back on what I said, it depends when the Admin or moderator entered the thread and if it could be salvaged, this thread highlighted is one of the many hundreds that are moderated daily.

Every user has the option to report a post, if it saves a thread from being pulled after 3 pages then more power to that option

BENT_8 · 12-11-2006, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laminge

Bent 8

I don't recall labelling your post out and am somewhat bewildered at your reply.

You will notice in my previous post that i do not accuse anyone of condemning my posts.
The problem is that because no exact reason was given or atleast a warning to the offending party, i was left wondering weather it was my views that were deemed appauling.
If the purpose for the thread being closed was due to the sensitive nature of the topic and to prevent the thread heading south, then it should be stated.

Laminge · 12-11-2006, 10:04 PM

I think post like "he deserved it" where the ones in questions, however that being said, both Jeff and I have gone now gone into depth about the reasoning, if not only to serve a purpose to avoid it in future but to calrify our positions.

Iphido · 12-11-2006, 10:08 PM

Guys, I encourage you to respect the umpires decision in this case. Nothing will be gained for turning on or advising our moderators. You may infact get yourself in hotwater.

There are other forums, as mentioned. We are all free to leave. This is not Hotel california (well maybe for some of us).

Seemingly innocent comments may result in a small flame war errupting which will bring all sorts of concequences to all involved. So think carefully before hitting "quick reply". It can be hard in the heat of discussion.

Its been nearly a year since I was last offered "alternative action" by a moderator for poor post tone and using the term girly to discribe a make of car.

new2ford · 12-11-2006, 10:24 PM

If only all moderators were as reasonable as you Laminge. Am I allowed to continue the discussion as follows notwithstanding XA-Coupe's continuing erudite comments?

Getting back to police being beside motorways, even if they are not stepping onto the roadway and they are on the median they are still vulnerable to being wiped out by a deviating vehicle. I notice roadworkers now either have hazard-warning trucks or cones blocking the adjacent lane, surely an OH&S outcome that the police should be entitled to as well?

And back to the motorist, the point at which David opened the discussion. A lot is happening very fast driving a vehicle at high speed. This is why motorways were invented, to allow high speed without the risk of intervening events suddenly emerging from roadsides. Also why we have signage a long way in advance advising of slip road exits and indeed the design of sliproads themselves - to allow phased and safe manoeuvres at speed and phased speeding up and slowing down.

Introduce into this equation constabulary hidden in bushes (OK if they are just recording speeds for later action) and suddenly appearing waving batons etc then you unravel the safety-base of the motorway concept for the driver as well. Most normal people are highly startled by such an event and those without much experience or of a nervy disposition are likely to panic and lose control of the vehicle.

Whilst such police actions are aimed at the safety issue of speed (lets just leave aside for a moment the argument of whether certain speed limits are appropriate), they in fact create a far more deadly safety issue - the possibility of a high-speed pile-up and threat to the safety of the roadside team. Two directions for consideration raised in the dead thread are that such policing would be more effectively and safely undertaken by a combination of fixed cameras and patrol cars (and the overhead signs on the Wollongong freeway (F6?) are also excellent for this).

This discussion should stay on the forum in one form or the other because like other safety issues discussed on this forum, I've found that such threads are a credit to the maturity and good sense of most Ford owners. Just edit out the odd silly comment but don't put forum members down by describing as toilet paper a thread that contains a lot of good sense. The fact that people talk is just one of those darned inconveniences of democracy that you have to put up with.

Like David, who has to ask if any of his comments are useless, I might have to ask if I have been police bashing. Personally I don't think so (quite the opposite in fact) but if I've caused offence I apologise to each and every moderator individually!

Firefox7 · 12-11-2006, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keepleft

The chap was a Scottish born officer, on duty with the NSW HWP for eight years, has three children.

I saw this on the news tonight and know that stretch of road well, because it is local to me. The police have been working that road for as long as I have held a drivers licence. It was just an unlucky turn of events that this accident occured. Many people die each year unfortunatley from work place accidents, and this should be treated as such. My sincere condolences to the officers Wife and his three children. He sounded like a top bloke.

As for the other thread...

I was dissapointed with some of the comments too and can understand why it was closed.

As for the moderators...

The moderators have a job to do and should be respected. After all they are moderators, and are there to keep all contents & discussion of this forum respectable & coherent for all. It sets a good example, that many other forums lack or care too.

Cheers

**russellw** · 12-11-2006, 11:01 PM

There is an old saying that you can't please all of the people all of the time and it's never truer than on this type of topic. Cop bashing is never going to be welcome on this forum and sadly a number of posts in that other thread had deteriorated into just that. Threads of that nature simply reach the point where it is easier to remove them than continue to edit them.

Perhaps; instead of sitting here being armchair experts; we should all reflect on the actual tragedy of a family without a husband and father who was doing nothing more than the job he'd been instructed to do.

Frankly, the rest is BS.

Russ

Bill_R · 12-11-2006, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by new2ford

If only all moderators were as reasonable as you Laminge. Am I allowed to continue the discussion as follows notwithstanding XA-Coupe's continuing erudite comments?

Getting back to police being beside motorways, even if they are not stepping onto the roadway and they are on the median they are still vulnerable to being wiped out by a deviating vehicle. I notice roadworkers now either have hazard-warning trucks or cones blocking the adjacent lane, surely an OH&S outcome that the police should be entitled to as well?

...

Like David, who has to ask if any of his comments are useless, I might have to ask if I have been police bashing. Personally I don't think so (quite the opposite in fact) but if I've caused offence I apologise to each and every moderator individually!

I didn't see the posts that were removed from the previous thread . In the posts I did see I saw a few hot-headed comments but mostly constructive criticism and thoughtful evaluation. I've long learned to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff in online conversations.
Being relatively new to these forums I think my impressions on the thread that was removed might have been different to some who have witnessed what they believe to be "cop bashing" in the past. I had no such residual effects. Maybe that is a good way to look at a thread - in its current context alone.

As far as "cop bashing" goes: I see it as the act that is being criticised and not the "cops". Some of the effort of some here seems to be not only to highlight public safety but the safety of the Police Officers as well. We can differentiate between us but when it comes to a tragedy like this we are all in the same boat - we all can experience and feel the same loss.

I just really can't understand why the median strip was being used. I haven't come across that myself. I don't know how I'd react if I did. That a few have seen the potential for this to happen in that spot says a lot. I also don't understand why technology isn't being used as an alternative. Now, I don't know the details of this accident and I doubt we will know for quite some time. We base our opinion on what we do know and the discussion seems to be more about the practice of procedures that use the median strip rather than this incident alone.

I think this is a serious issue and it certainly deserves discussion and I thank those who have contributed constructively and helped me to look at the situation from all sides more clearly.

frenzal · 12-11-2006, 11:46 PM

i drive the strip the accident occured everyday, and i have allways said that if i was ever pulled over speeding at that position, and was forced to pull over on the right hand fastlane shoulder, when it was time to go, i would politely ask the officer if he was going to stop the oncoming traffic so that i could enter the FAST lane in a safe manner, as the re-entering of traffic at this location is an equally, if not more, dangerous situation, because there isnt much room to gain speed again to enter the FAST lane. i would also have no hesitation in sitting there next to the policeman if it took 30mins for a safe lane entry to enventuate

Flaming Mo · 12-11-2006, 11:51 PM

In 1996, a young Queensland Constable was struck and killed while performing radar duty on the 4 lane highway in between Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast. Due to immediate adverse comments from the coroner, the then Police Commissioner, Jim O'Sullivan called an immediate halt to this method of vehicle interceptions on high speed dual carriageways, pending the final outcome of the coronial inquest.

I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that due to the subsequent introduction of speed cameras and alternative interception methods such as police motorbikes and controlled rolling interceptions, the circular issued suspending this practice is still in force in Queensland with respect to multi lane high speed carriageways. (As I said, I may be wrong as I am not aware of the final recommendations from that inquest - I can only assume that the practice was not viewed favourably by the Magistrate).

My point is however, it amazes me that the heirarchy and politicians in NSW (or any other state for that matter) would ignore previous tragedies and coronial recommendations (regardless of which state) when implementing policy that places their members and the public at great risk, considering the safer alternatives now available for enforcing high speed zones.

GXL078 · 13-11-2006, 09:25 AM

Don't they have enough cameras on the F3 already. A smarter thing to do would be to hide the cameras. You would have to be pretty useless to have a crash on that road anyway. Putting cops on bikes to chase cars is even more dangerous for them. Hey frenzal, if you have oncoming traffic on the F3 you have a real problem, but it has happened .

merlin · 13-11-2006, 10:14 AM

First and foremost I was most upset to hear of the passing of this family man and I extend my condolences to his family and friends - very sad indeed.

Secondly I think it was a "needless" death in that is a very dangerous situation for both the police and the general public to have people stopping on a freeway shoulder to recieve minor speeding infringements - I mean we are talking about risking the lives of people (police are people too) to book John Smith for doing 112 in a 100 zone (hardly a life threatening offence). I think there are far more safe and effective methods for this and hopefully the inquiry will recommend these.

csv8 · 13-11-2006, 11:42 AM

Laminge, no, it wasn't off topic, it was on topic, about posts being deleted.
But dems the rules !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:

HOON69 · 13-11-2006, 01:54 PM

NO OFFENCE:but my only contribution is this

Quote:

In short, the following things are not permitted:

1. Posts about or containing references to: religion, race, sensitive or controversial subjects.

2. Posts that are (or could reasonably be considered to be): defamatory, threatening, invasive of privacy, or which otherwise violate any law applicable within Australia.

3. Posts containing advertising material in any form except those posted on or on behalf of supporting site sponsors.

Posts which breach any of the points above will be removed at the absolute discretion of the administration team. If you feel that a post has been removed incorrectly then please use the Private Messaging system provided to discuss the issue with a member of the admin team rather than discuss the issue publicly.

in all honesty a forum is a forum and even though,you have guidelines and rules you can never take away freedom of speech as thats not anyones to own,and though i used to disrespect a few "authority" figures i think unless you make a personal attack to the police/officer why cant one have a sensible debate about the topic being mentioned in this thread?

and a forum is "NOTHING" without its members so as much as one person can say
"lets get rid of (who we think) are the trouble makers" you cant just write a person off because they disagree with your opinions etc.

defy cop bashing,cause to me you've only got to mention the word "cop/police" and your a target and thats before you start your cop bashing type remarks.

we know that Cop bashing Period! isnt allowed but a debate about the actions of police in certain cirucumstances isnt exactly a cop bashing is it?
i was under the impression that this was a forum and not a court house,please any authoritie figure feel free to go NAZI on me im only asking,im not trying to be smart but where is the "line" exactly i've gone over the rules and basically it comes down to this

Quote:

2. Posts that are (or could reasonably be considered to be): defamatory, threatening, invasive of privacy, or which otherwise violate any law applicable within Australia.

and that could be almost any subject can't it?

Quote:

Administrators, please let the threads run their course, unless, of course it gets completely out of hand, as there are some of us here that do, in fact have information of some value. Please don't just stop it because there are a few comments you don't agree on.

ditto couldnt of said it better myself,a moderators job is to edit and remove such negative posts,surely thats a better solution then to delete a subject only to have it appear again 5 mins later.

MarkAW · 13-11-2006, 01:56 PM

I was recently tagged for a few K over the limit about 30km further up the F3.

The cop in question pointed his hairdryer from the median strip so as to gain as much camo as possible. i got caught and he signaled for me to pullover then he returned to his vehicle. I calmly changed lanes to the left side and pulled over into the breakdown lane and waited for the cop to catch up with me. No danger to anyone and it was his responsibility to get to me in a safe manner. It was done by driving to where I was and if he has to drive to me then so be it - even if it is a few K's down the road.

The law requires you to pullover to the left when signalled by any appropriate authority - not the right. I don't agree with cops using a hide & surprise tactic but a little common sense on the part of the motorist also helps. Maybe this will be the end of hide & surprise.

new2ford · 13-11-2006, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill_R

Being relatively new to these forums I think my impressions on the thread that was removed might have been different to some who have witnessed what they believe to be "cop bashing" in the past. I had no such residual effects. Maybe that is a good way to look at a thread - in its current context alone.

I'm happy to see some sort of equilibrium or understanding has returned to this topic and that the moderators now understand that the surviving posters are actually trying to support the police not criticise them. Any criticism is directed at higher, mostly political levels where the particular cultures and practices are engendered.

I sympathise with the mods. This is a huge forum, I moderate a very small one. I can appreciate that these fine volunteers have other things to do in life than sit in front of a computer 24/7 watching out for and deleting inappropriate posts. Nevertheless respect is a two-way street. No poster to the forum (except maybe a transparent fool) should be subject to the likes of:

Quote:

Originally Posted by russellw

Perhaps; instead of sitting here being armchair experts; we should all reflect on the actual tragedy of a family without a husband and father who was doing nothing more than the job he'd been instructed to do.

Frankly, the rest is BS.

Russ

Firstly reflecting on this terrible tragedy is exactly what everybody is doing (we're all humans Russ) and, secondly, does the toilet theme (second time it has come up from a moderator) really reflect some mods' attitudes towards posters on the forum? I hope not. Keep up this excellent forum guys but remember the excellence comes from a balance of both its administrators and users. Sometimes the scales may wobble a bit but lets respect each other. And thanks for letting this thread survive, its a controversial one but also an important one.

Wally · 13-11-2006, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David See

Hi all,.........

The practice is too dangerous and this proves it.
.......

Well of course, there will be those who would argue the cop was not following procedures. Unfortunately the startled driver of the car probably wasn't trained in the procedure either. The infringement must have been a doosey for the officer to put his life in jeopardy...... perhaps a more visible presence would have forwarned the driver?

Bill_R · 13-11-2006, 06:27 PM

I missed the whole story but I just heard part of a story about a review underway about stopping of cars on 100 km/h or more freeways.

good news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it's a shame we need a tragedy for a change to be made. Keep them coming! maybe next time they'll get the picture before there is a loss of life.

XA-Coupe · 13-11-2006, 07:01 PM

I was going to reply to all the relevant posts individually but they aren't worth it.
New2Ford. You are reacting to having your opinion edited like a recalcitrant brat. Frankly, as people have said, a forum is only as good as the people in it and how they behave. If you don't like it, I can understand that but as I have said before, we don't hold anyone prisoner. So far you have done nothing to prove to me that all you want to do is continue to complain about the actions of the moderator and specifically me. Well, continue to complain as it isn't going to change a thing. The previous thread was just the usual BS that comes up.
Maybe one or two posts actually dealt with the situation at hand and wasn't just another 'look at me' post but they were the exception, not the rule. If the thread had the junk winnowed form it then it woudl have had no continuity and been a series of apparently unrelated thoughts.
If you want to add to this forum, great, I applaud you. If you want to say what you want with no recourse then you will have to go elsewhere. We are as 'democratic' as we can be but don't think we will see this forum degenerate into a cess pool like a few others with not enough moderation.
As for the toilet theme, I think it was and is appropriate given some of the **** I see posted.. think of me as the button.
PS : Ronnie, always good to see you chucking you 2 cents in, never the same unless you are in there somewhere

David See · 13-11-2006, 08:13 PM

Ok guys, I am really disappointed how things have been going from the start with this one.

My original post was not a "look at me" exercise as someone so eloquently put it, it was me responding to an upsetting event that I was eventually involved in - one that I knew was going to happen at some stage in the future, just didn't know where or when.

It wasn't a cop-bashing exercise at all.

I was told once elsewhere on this forum that opinions are just that and all forums are full of 'em. "Get used to it".

My opinion is that if my previous thread was only worth printing out and wiping your bum with, then that goes for the rest of this bloody forum.

I have lost count of the number of times I have been shot down for having an opinion and now posts and indeed threads are being removed and thus losing some valuable opinions and ideas along with it. No doubt this will end up that way too.

Life's too short for me to put up with power trips such as this.

new2ford, I apologise. What started being an innocent thread has ended up a quagmire of ego-tripping.

Who cares? It is just a forum - and I sure as hell don't need it. I was TRYING to be constructive and add some value. What a waste of energy.

XA-Coupe · 13-11-2006, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David See

Who cares? It is just a forum - and I sure as hell don't need it.

That is the truest thing I have seen in the last couple of days. It is the internet, there is a whole real world out there.
People take these things way to seriously for their own good.

David See · 13-11-2006, 08:25 PM

"People take these things way to seriously for their own good."

That's funny you should say that.

By the way - I bet I am not the only one wondering this: are you a cop?

Would certainly answer a lot of questions for us all.

XA-Coupe · 13-11-2006, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David See

"People take these things way to seriously for their own good."

That's funny you should say that.

By the way - I bet I am not the only one wondering this: are you a cop?

Would certainly answer a lot of questions for us all.

If you did some research you would know that I am not... but was. I left the force because of the force but I also am one of the few on this forum that has a clue about what they do and don't do. I had the pleasure of working with some of the biggest tools on this planet and some of the hardest working bravest people I have ever met.
I also know the reality of the job. You, and 99% of others obviously don't. I can say with all honesty I have been there and done that, now ante up with your police related experience.
I am ( one of the ) custodian of all this forum. What you feel may be okay may not be okay in the big picture. It's sad you can't see that but I am not going to lose any sleep.