Holden but interesting read

[lra]

Originally Posted by Tonz

You, obviously were not around at the time, some people thought it was a sign of the end of the world.............

I remember very well the 1972 Evan Green ‘supercar scare’ that predicted we would all die as a result of grossly over-powered uncontrollable un-guideded missiles on public roads.

I bought a new Kingswood 186S in 1968. It died from rust and engine failure in early 1974, just in time for me to order a 202 LH SLR, sight unseen, which turned out to be the biggest POS that I have ever owned. That was traded on HJ Kingswood 12 months later.

I remember the ‘odds and evens’ rationing of petrol, and wondered why people were trading ‘gas guzzling’ 6s and V8s to gain an extra 5 >10 mpg when they got SFA trade on a 4 cyl. I did the sums, and they didn’t compute to a logical financial result. It didn’t compute then, and doesn’t compute now, with our being herded into ever-decreasing engine sizes some people think will stave off the end of the world............. if Convid19 doesn’t get in first.

So, yeah, I think I obviously was.

[roKWiz]

70's world fuel shortages, fun times.

Jerry Reed wrote and sang this related to the times.

https://youtu.be/DEwqJDiKR_I

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I got to say Holden had good simple engines back then, I've had 186's, 202's stock, mild, fully worked, mild, worked 253 and 308s never had one self destruct through misuse or otherwise and ran them really hard. 202's I used in several courier cars (O/D) at the time and found them super reliable with good fuel consumption probably the only reason I didn't use V8's.
I must admit when you combined the best of Japanese with Australian stuff it certainly improved driveability as well (in my case using modified 5 speed Supra transmissions with hydraulic clutches) Nissan powered VL Commodore was a good selling car at the time (once buyers got their head around a Jap engine).
My own comparison between my current (1979 style) 93 XF panel van to a full chassis HQ-WB panel van the Holden is a much better finished vehicle.

Sorry Bossxr8 and others.

Things such as the Ford unibody, rear shocks, fuel tank accessibility, door closure finish, the way the lines of the later Falcon panel van looks awkward with the door roof alignment, the stock rear track looks strange from certain angles. The Holden panel van looked like it was designed to be a panel van, not a car with an extra high roof added like the Ford does even with an old style body on full chassis design.

With the end of the XC Ford and Holden HZ I can remember so many buyers not wanting to go to a smaller car like the Commodore and XD and I reckon this is where the Japanese car culture started to bite. It was engrained that the big family sedan was king and if you had to go smaller why not get all the bells and whistles of a cheaper optioned up Jap cruiser for the price of a VB or XD Aussie car.

Late 70's, my mates and I always laughed at owners of Jap stuff then and couldn't understand why anyone would buy one or a small Aussie Falcon and Commodore.
Times have changed.

A mate once commented on my HX Sandman as being once a ute that must of been turned into a P Van, well not true, but .
My 1993 XG Falcon Longreach ute from new I myself thought that it must of had fallen off the transport truck and went back to ford to be fixed but with the date build being the march and the date I got it there would not be time to do such. tho I loved the car.
I liked the look of my XC Falcon P Vans both were 12 slot wheels and GS grill and bonnet. barn doors they had there good points and tail gate type had it's good points.

As to engines I have never blown one of mine up, dropped a head off a valve in my $500 3.3L 20yo XC Van in 1998 and put a rod through the block on my mums HJ 202 but I knew that was on the cards 6 months before as it had started a death rattle on cold start up, but the old man rejected my warning.
The 202 did big end bearings due to 3rd rate quality rod bolts that would stretch and some valve collets that lacked quality or weak valve springs due to getting to hot maybe, I believe that as the valve gets into a phase where it isolates this becomes harsh on the collet, let alone valve bounce and on top of all that is idiots not maintaining oil changes and oil and air filters, not to mention out of tune even the plugs are buggered driving about month after month, I hear such even nowadays getting about, no wonder a engine driven about like that will not last.

When the ADR 27A HX Holden came out I worked at a Motel and all the reps would start the 202 HX up in the morning and rev them up as they had to, the XC 4.1L And Valiants were fine. the 5.0L HX were total gutless as one dude I know had a 5.0L HX Sandman ute 4sp stock with single exhaust, when he drove my HX with a stock HT 308 with dual exhaust, he was running about in big circles he could not believe the power difference.

[whynot]

I think the news article and the comments in this thread underscore how much the concept of “quality” plays in the decision-making process. For example, the 1960’s Ford Falcon XK had a bad durability issues with collapsing front ball joints and shims falling out. This perception carried over to the 1962 Falcon XL, which was considered unsuitable for local conditions. XM was considered structurally weak. Perceptions were so bad that in 1965 Bill Bourke conducted a staged demonstration at Ford’s proving ground on the new Falcon XP. Around this time there were proving rallies like the Ampol around Australia, which continued into the REPCO rallies into the 1980’s.

Both Ford and Holden traded on this perception of “built for Australian conditions” till their dying day. This is one perspective of quality. Today, if you want tough, then vehicles like Hilux, Ranger, Patrol, et al spring to mind.

The Japanese car manufacturers came at the quality problem from a different perspective. They followed Edwards Deming’s statistical approach to eliminating quality problems. Two interesting extracts from his Wikipedia article

Deming's teachings and philosophy are clearly illustrated by examining the results they produced after they were adopted by Japanese industry, as the following example shows. Ford Motor Company was simultaneously manufacturing a car model with transmissions made in Japan and the United States. Soon after the car model was on the market (c. 1950), Ford customers were requesting the model with Japanese transmissions over the US-made transmissions, and they were willing to wait for the Japanese model. As both transmissions were made to the same specifications, Ford engineers could not understand the customer preference for the model with Japanese transmissions. Finally, Ford engineers decided to take apart the two different transmissions. The American-made car parts were all within specified tolerance levels. However, the Japanese car parts were virtually identical to each other, and much closer to the nominal values for the parts—e.g., if a part was supposed to be one foot long, plus or minus 1/8 of an inch—then the Japanese parts were all within 1/16 of an inch, less variation. This made the Japanese cars run more smoothly and customers experienced fewer problems.

And this one …

Ford Motor Company was one of the first American corporations to seek help from Deming. In 1981, Ford's sales were falling. Between 1979 and 1982, Ford had incurred $3 billion in losses. Ford's newly appointed Corporate Quality Director, Larry Moore, was charged with recruiting Deming to help jump-start a quality movement at Ford.[25] Deming questioned the company's culture and the way its managers operated. To Ford's surprise, Deming talked not about quality, but about management. He told Ford that management actions were responsible for 85% of all problems in developing better cars.

By the time the 1970’s came around, both Ford and Holden could not trade as heavily on their “quality” reputation as they could only a decade earlier. With the quality issue somewhat neutralised, the Japanese were selling on price, value for money, and running costs (e.g. fuel consumption).

There have been a few other things happen along the way as well. Check out the route from the 1958 Ampol around Australia map. Back in the day, parts of the route were considered horror stretches of road. Yet, drive the same route today and it is all bitumen, granted a bit scrappy in spots. If you really need a Falcon or a Commodore with its “heavy duty” suspension, then you are probably inclined to purchase a 4WD with the added benefit of its off road capabilities.

I am hopeful that the closure of traditional car manufacturing in Australia may actually be a blessing in disguise. Given the looming technology changes around renewables and batteries, this may be an opportunity for the local manufacturing to reinvent itself.

[mick taylor]

My understanding was that the ball joins in our XK-L were made in the UK and the USA ball joints were of a better quality steel.
The UK ball joints broke.

I had one brake in my HX Holden, well the thread and nut was were it failed, I was doing 200KM/H only some 20km before

I went through 3 front ends in my HG Holden, first one snapped the welding around the hat that sits the upper wishbone and shocky and the next 2 bent the bottom wishbone.

The HQ-J-X-Z and WB bent the solid beam going under the engine and cracked as well in the chassis in one point not a problem really tho.

I remember how the highways were in QLD 1970's if a car comes the other way you got 2 wheels off in the dirt and the bridges if they are still used are one way only now because people are such hopeless drivers nowadays, trucks would pass on them bridges without a problem you know, well my old man did cut some ropes once must of got a bit close that day.

My left hand shocks would flog out before the right hand ones but I would sit in the middle of the road on out back narrow roads mainly, even in 1996 without dirt the edge was cactus and a city mate in his VL Turbo sopped up and lowered rubbish, he sat left in the ditches all the time and I said what are you doing ! oh well he will learn I thought.
I said to him Brisbane to Charleville highway was fantastic just before the big floods and the worst part was before Toowoomba and he was crying no it's not ! he had a new 4x4 Rodeo and had been out to Roma, I had driven that Rodeo junk shocks were rubbish new I could not stand driving such rubbish at all, that VS Commodore had a solid rear axel not IRS but the shocks were Pedders white not a HP shock but bloody good ride comfort to the std Holden ones.

Just about shocks I found a shock that is just magic for corrugated roads Monroe GT-Gas Reflex I put this on my VY SS and boy corrugated roads meant nothing at all, just hammer it as hard as you want the most amazing shock ever. they have a little shim added in the shock that takes out the initial harshness.
All 4X4 should have this type of shock, but they don't make them for 4x4, back in 2013 anyway.
Where one would sit on 70KM/H max I could go by 180KM/H with no problem, I would just fang into it as if it was not even their really and that is with 235/45 18.

[lra]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

I remember how the highways were in QLD 1970's if a car comes the other way you got 2 wheels off in the dirt and the bridges if they are still used are one way only now :
I said to him Brisbane to Charleville highway was fantastic just before the big floods and the worst part was before Toowoomba and he was crying no it's not !
,

I grew up in Charleville, and after leaving school and getting a job in 1965, a group of us would get in our Zephyrs, Morrises, and Holdens and drive to the Gold Coast for a fun weekend.
Leave after work Friday, drive all night, party, drive back Sunday night, go to work. Used to take about 12 hours flat out (which wasn’t all that fast) each way, and we considered the Warrego H’way to be really good, only the Charleville to Morven section was unsealed.
I have driven that road a couple of times in the last few years, it has improved marginally, but now, a 12 hour drive will get you from Charleville to about Ipswich.
The volume of traffic, lack of overtaking lanes and opportunities, and roadworks where nothing seems to be happening make it worse than what it was 50 years ago.
Well done Qld Roads.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

I remember how the highways were in QLD 1970's if a car comes the other way you got 2 wheels off in the dirt and the bridges if they are still used are one way only now because people are such hopeless drivers nowadays, trucks would pass on them bridges without a problem you know, well my old man did cut some ropes once must of got a bit close that day.

Most Victoria back roads are still single lanes, pass half on the dirt. Always end up with the left side of your car dirty.

[mick taylor]

I remember my dad sitting mainly on 80mph on the highways mainly back in 1970's and that was in a 6cyl Holden's just taking it easy a 186 HR and a 173 HQ and around 80 to 90mph in a 245 Valiant and 90mph all the time in a 1971 LTD Galaxie towing a trailer full of crap it just floated along like nothing at all and that was Rocky to Brisbane trips a lot.

Not many cars on the roads back in them days.

I had a 1988 Kawasaki ZX10 Ninja and I just took it easy cruse along on 240KM/H on the double lanes Bris to Nambour easy as pie and as safe as, but not now I would never do that as to many cars and drivers nowadays are shocking, not to mention that I am to old to be bothered with such anymore. Had it up to 10500RPM one night top gear late at night due to the cops.