Holden reveals that it has received $2.17 billion in Federal Government assistance

[jpd80]

Thanks Sinead,
Has there been significant decline in that assistance in the last three or four years?

[XWGT]

Originally Posted by Sinead Phipps

Read the post immediately above yours XWGT. We didn't / don't have to disclose our number as we release it each and every year as part of our accounts.

Hi Sinead

While I understand that Sinead there is a difference between passive disclosure and proactive conditioning :-)

I would seriously be taking the opportunity offered by Holden to clear the slate publicly with minimum exposure and.

If one thing is for certain this issue is NOT going to go away, especially with an election looming and I'd be using Holden as the sacrifical lamb right now.

Just my 2 cents.....

[Sinead Phipps]

JPD80 - not really. Grants are accessed as programs work through various gateways so it isn't necessarily done on a calendar year basis. ATS credits are based on production and R&D so again, that comes down to the level of work underway at any given time.

XWGT - the other way to look at it is that we release our grants each year as part of our results. We take questions and position it at that time proactively (the other brands do not - which is why Holden had to "release" theirs yesterday): for example, last year we were able to show that in the five years prior to the end of 2011, we'd spent $1.7 billion on R&D alone, which made us the highest of the local brands. Without knowing what Holden's agenda is in releasing their figures now (for some reason, they don't explain their plans to us :-)), why get involved in this discussion again?

[Road_Warrior]

The article said the figures were released because of some sort of dispute they (Holden) were having with The Financial Review newspaper. Obviously the Fin Review published something that Holden took issue with, and it escalated from there. Someone from News Ltd must have FOI'ed the relevant government department for the figures on Holden and basically forced Holden to play its hand.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by XWGT

Hi Sinead

While I understand that Sinead there is a difference between passive disclosure and proactive conditioning :-)

I would seriously be taking the opportunity offered by Holden to clear the slate publicly with minimum exposure and.

If one thing is for certain this issue is NOT going to go away, especially with an election looming and I'd be using Holden as the sacrifical lamb right now.

Just my 2 cents.....

I personally don't see the need for Ford to say anything here. We have already seen one article that shows Ford with the highest received support per car built. Now, I know we here all now that figure was calculated very un-accurately, but average Job does not know & does not care & will just use it to continue to put Ford down!!

I can’t see any good coming from it..

[Road_Warrior]

Mmm. Given the amount of venom the Fairfax and News Ltd outlets have for Ford (from the hands of only a few reporters I might add), and the local car industry in general, I think no matter how they (Ford) try and spin it, it will still be portrayed in the negative.

But rather than stay silent, perhaps Ford could talk up the R&D role it plays and the $$$ that have been invested there of late - like developing the T6 for starters. This is a project traditionally carried out by Dearborn itself, giving it to a "foreign" design bureau is a remarkable first for Ford and shows the confidence they have in the Aussie outpost - the media and the public need to be reminded of that amongst all the populist hysteria of subsidies and monthly sales.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I personally don't see the need for Ford to say anything here. We have already seen one article that shows Ford with the highest received support per car built. Now, I know we here all now that figure was calculated very un-accurately, but average Job does not know & does not care & will just use it to continue to put Ford down!!

I can’t see any good coming from it..

Exactly, this is a case where Ford could step forward and make the situation worse
by being drawn into a public argument that only serves the purposes of the adversarial press.

I'm aware that in the Past Sinead has told us that Ford has tried to explain situations
to the media but that they take their own negative spin and twist people's words.

The best that we can do is accept that Ford is choosing its battles and avoiding damaging public conflict.

The best we can hope for is some "authoritative guidance" in the right direction when negative spin is being spread..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Mmm. Given the amount of venom the Fairfax and News Ltd outlets have for Ford (from the hands of only a few reporters I might add), and the local car industry in general, I think no matter how they (Ford) try and spin it, it will still be portrayed in the negative.

But rather than stay silent, perhaps Ford could talk up the R&D role it plays and the $$$ that have been invested there of late - like developing the T6 for starters. This is a project traditionally carried out by Dearborn itself, giving it to a "foreign" design bureau is a remarkable first for Ford and shows the confidence they have in the Aussie outpost - the media and the public need to be reminded of that amongst all the populist hysteria of subsidies and monthly sales.

Holden are the past masters in self promotion, maybe it's time that Ford told people what it's doing behind the scenes....
Being a "quit achiever" only works when people are already aware of the efforts going on...

[XWGT]

[QUOTE=Sinead Phipps;4685228]JPD80 - not really. Grants are accessed as programs work through various gateways so it isn't necessarily done on a calendar year basis. ATS credits are based on production and R&D so again, that comes down to the level of work underway at any given time.

XWGT - the other way to look at it is that we release our grants each year as part of our results. We take questions and position it at that time proactivelyQUOTE]

Hi Sinead

I get that. However I think the argument has gone beyond an informed industry analysis story every year to a red rag for the masses and fodder for certain pulp journalists to base their next 24 months pay cheque on.

Unfortunately it seems the public debate has now become a personal and political one (i.e totally irrational) and I'd be using Holden as a human sheild right now if I had the chance :-)

Either way, best of luck with it.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

The article said the figures were released because of some sort of dispute they (Holden) were having with The Financial Review newspaper. Obviously the Fin Review published something that Holden took issue with, and it escalated from there. Someone from News Ltd must have FOI'ed the relevant government department for the figures on Holden and basically forced Holden to play its hand.

I Believe it originally started (Altho the various newspapers have been trying to get this information for a while), because someone at one of the Government departments accidently sent a great deal of information to a Fairfax reporter. Upon learning of this, the government took out an injunction to stop the information from being published (and all copies of the information be destroyed). It appears it was only a matter of time before the information did get out, and Holden have gone on the front foot to try and control the interpretation of the information. And they have done it for a very very good reason.

Simply the $2100 (last years production divided by $180 million) quoted that goes into supporting a Holden manufactured vehicle could be very much on the low side. The money is money (foregone gov. receipts) that Holden has said it has received. Holden (and toyota and ford) suppliers have also received government assistance. Add all this up and theres a potential for government assistance to make up to $5000 per Holden car. Now consider the broad comparison used for last years manufacturing, and imagine $5000 in assistance going into making a $15,000 wholesale priced cruze (and not to mention that only 40% of that $15,000 is actually occurring in Australia). Theres potential that Holden (and suppliers) is receiving $5000 in total government assistance to add ($15,000 x 40%=) $6,000 in economic activity.

Holden employees may have paid $1.4 billion in income taxes over the last 12 years for the $2.1 billion in assistance (Altho it would always pay to double check Holdens statements), But I am sure that Nissan, Mazda and a few of the other full importers (combined) have also paid over a $1 billion dollars in income taxes over the last 12 years (with no Australian federal government assistance), thus have achieved a far greater economic return for the federal government than Holden.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

I am sure that Nissan, Mazda and a few of the other full importers (combined) have also paid over a $1 billion dollars in income taxes over the last 12 years (with no Australian federal government assistance), thus have achieved a far greater economic return for the federal government than Holden.

And I am sure those importers also haven't invested anywhere near the level of dollars in terms of R&D, capex and parts and materials acquisition as Holden. Or Ford for that matter.

[jpd80]

It all sounds like the cost of creating business activity in Australia is not worth the investment the government makes.
No wonder the whole thing is sliding out the door at a fast rate of knots, the "can do" country is becoming "don't try" land...

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I personally don't see the need for Ford to say anything here. We have already seen one article that shows Ford with the highest received support per car built. Now, I know we here all now that figure was calculated very un-accurately, but average Job does not know & does not care & will just use it to continue to put Ford down!!

I can’t see any good coming from it..

You're not wrong. Last night whilst driving home I heard Ross Greenwood talking to Joshua Dowling on the radio. Dowling was making excuses for Holden, and at every juncture tried to paint Ford as being the culprit. Ross Greenwood was being even handed and correctly suggested that Holden were using more taxpayers funds even mentioning the massive payrise across the board at Holden, but Joshua just deflected saying Ford were worse and that at the auto show in the USA Ford management refused to answer him about what their plans are beyond 2016 so therefore Ford will close in 2016. He's the quintessential Tim Flannery of the auto world.

Sinead, did you guys at Ford refuse to give this perennial **** a free car or something?

[pearlhead]

Originally Posted by ltd

You're not wrong. Last night whilst driving home I heard Ross Greenwood talking to Joshua Dowling on the radio. Dowling was making excuses for Holden, and at every juncture tried to paint Ford as being the culprit. Ross Greenwood was being even handed and correctly suggested that Holden were using more taxpayers funds even mentioning the massive payrise across the board at Holden, but Joshua just deflected saying Ford were worse and that at the auto show in the USA Ford management refused to answer him about what their plans are beyond 2016 so therefore Ford will close in 2016. He's the quintessential Tim Flannery of the auto world.

Sinead, did you guys at Ford refuse to give this perennial **** a free car or something?

Good god, is he really that dense? That there is a case of blocking your ears and screaming "LALALALALA, I'M NOT LISTENING!"

[XWGT]

Hence he needs to be shut down....with facts....by Ford

Else he will just continue to thrive on the carcass of Ford

[pearlhead]

I bet even some of the boys and girls at Holden would be pretty disgusted by Dowling's brand of disdain towards Ford.

[samos]

i have not checked the history myself, but i'm glad that ford effectively annually publishes the sums it receives, and that holden has now done so as well. with toyota being reported on too, it will give a good idea into how much help the local industry needs. now if only the govt could strong arm the north americans and japanese companies, and demand that the locals get to export to same-side-of-the-road countries with our local models, especially to the growth countries, then we'd see a flourishing local car industry again - it PAINS me to see (in my opinion) our three local cars being denied that export oppurtunity by the respective headquarters (the three being the commodore, falcon and territory)...

[1TUFFUTE]

I can gaurantee SINEAD is thanking god JOSH 'muppet' DOWLING didn't choose FORD to support. What a nightmare that hack would be.

And once again it looks like Ford (sinead Phipps in this case) truly do know what they are doing and once explained by sinead, makes good sense in making the best of an agreeable very tough time.

GOOD work FORD

We still have some of the best cars in the world so whos complaining
The Territory, Xr6T, Miami 5.0 and eco lpi are all amazing cars.