According to Drive Ranger XL and XLS are not selling?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by simon varley

things are changing very rapidly in the Regulations space. Iterations of the Euro 6 standard mean that the bi-turbo is finding it increasingly hard to pass. If we move to Euro 6 here quickly we may find that we can pick up Euro spec cars. It might not be that easy as our cars are currently sourced from Thailand but the Euro market ones are sourced from South Africa, but just because you can't buy the model here today doesn't mean that it will always be the case

Euro market is imposing tougher road tax regs that go beyond Euro 6, that’s what will end diesel in the next few years
Ford knows it’s diesel strategy in Europe is toast, it needs the BEV pretty soon, sooner than it originally planned…

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Still keep those high value sales, but why not take more off Toyota where you could?

Toyota is the king of the 4x2 povvo spec, sure they're lower profit per unit compared to the high value stuff but why leave an opening for Toyota? Take that from them too.

They can't be THAT low profit though, what's it cost to crank out a ladder frame chassis ute with a 5sp manual box with drum brakes on the rear, leaf springs and a 15 year old 4 cylinder engine?

Its not like Toyota would be losing money on every $32K Workmate that leaves the dealership floor.

Because the factory is running at max capacity just trying to meet demand now. And it's still falling short. Just noticed the wait times for Wildtrak V6 has now blown out another couple of months, so the demand keeps exceeding supply. Why bother taking away some of those production slots just to sell cheapies?

It might be a different story if they had excess factory capacity to build more cars, but they don't.

I'm glad you don't own a business.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Put the V6 in XL /XLS and watch ‘em go out the door…

Not so long ago Ford was shaking its head at australian buyers being too capacity centric,
Ford continually underestimates this market, playing safe costs them a ton of sales…
Time to just let her rip and take the cash……

Some Australian Buyers do seem Capacity centric

An example a Mate from Queensland said he wouldn't buy a Ranger because they dropped the 3.2..

I told him the new 3L v6 is much more powerful & so is the 2L anyway.

He came back saying the 2L's have been blowing up.. asking for an example the story changed to going into limp mode, I told him that's not blowing up..

There was nothing I could tell him to change his mind

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It might be a different story if they had excess factory capacity to build more cars, but they don't.

I'm glad you don't own a business.

I'm sure a mega corporation like Ford with it's supposedly billions of dollars in the bank and global manufacturing operations can't find or create capacity to build a couple thousand extra utes to take sales away from a major competitor.

That's just small thinking, but hey I guess that's why Ford is NEVER first to market with anything, sits on their hands for years and let's competitors get a hold in a market before they pull their finger out of their asses.

F150 in Australia? Allowed RAM to corner the market, a Stellantis product? You've got to be out of your mind to buy one of those but if it's the only option I guess customers don't have too much of a choice.

Remember when Ford Australia blocked a commercial deal between Performax International and Ford USA over the F series when they had no intentions of even bringing it to the market? This was well before HSV turned up on the scene in 2014 - now in 2022 they finally get onboard with RMA.

Hell even GM beat them to the punch - that's a bit of a laugh given the absolute clown show that circus is.

Tesla Model Y, but no Mustang EV for Australia?

The way this usually works is your sales team unearths opportunities and then you beg, borrow, steal, jump up and down and whinge to expand capacity to meet demand, you don't turn away opportunities because you're content with what you have.

Sure, I don't own a business but hey I took IVECOs $910,000, HSV's $400,000/year and took a competitors biggest customer and torpedoed their Melbourne operations, all without capacity to take on the work, but suddenly the capacity quickly expanded to meet the demand when the dollars were on the table.

If you could take a thousand 4x2 sales from Toyota, you reckon they can't find capacity to build another 1000 utes between Thailand and South Africa?

Get the sales then make the operations clowns figure it out.

You can tell who has an understanding of sales opportunities and who doesn't, I can tell the difference between what people say can't be done and what can actually can when there's motivation.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I'm sure a mega corporation like Ford with it's supposedly billions of dollars in the bank and global manufacturing operations can't find or create capacity to build a couple thousand extra utes to take sales away from a major competitor.

That's just small thinking, but hey I guess that's why Ford is NEVER first to market with anything, sits on their hands for years and let's competitors get a hold in a market before they pull their finger out of their asses.

F150 in Australia? Allowed RAM to corner the market, a Stellantis product? You've got to be out of your mind to buy one of those but if it's the only option I guess customers don't have too much of a choice.

Remember when Ford Australia blocked a commercial deal between Performax International and Ford USA over the F series when they had no intentions of even bringing it to the market? This was well before HSV turned up on the scene in 2014 - now in 2022 they finally get onboard with RMA.

Hell even GM beat them to the punch - that's a bit of a laugh given the absolute clown show that circus is.

Tesla Model Y, but no Mustang EV for Australia?

The way this usually works is your sales team unearths opportunities and then you beg, borrow, steal, jump up and down and whinge to expand capacity to meet demand, you don't turn away opportunities because you're content with what you have.

Sure, I don't own a business but hey I took IVECOs $910,000, HSV's $400,000/year and took a competitors biggest customer and torpedoed their Melbourne operations, all without capacity to take on the work, but suddenly the capacity quickly expanded to meet the demand when the dollars were on the table.

If you could take a thousand 4x2 sales from Toyota, you reckon they can't find capacity to build another 1000 utes between Thailand and South Africa?

Get the sales then make the operations clowns figure it out.

You can tell who has an understanding of sales opportunities and who doesn't, I can tell the difference between what people say can't be done and what can actually can when there's motivation.

They have already increased the factory capacity. But you can only push them so far before you need to rip the whole place apart, or build a new factory.

Any businessman can figure out it's better to sell more of the highly profitable widgets, than the lower profit ones. Looks like no one wants them anyway, cause all the orders are for the highly profitable ones. Maybe they have a pretty good idea of what their customers want. More so than the average internet expert anyway

It's all so easy looking from the outside, with no input on what is actually going on. It is fun to do the old "if i was them i'd do this" thing though. There's no repercussions for getting it wrong, that's for sure.

[simon varley]

if you jack up production by a couple of thousand units you might be able to run the line but you take away all provision for downtime maintenance etc. You could add another shift, but the economics of that probably mean adding 100,000 extra units not just 1000. I'm going to trust that the plant guys who know what they are doing have optimised as best they can already

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

They have already increased the factory capacity. But you can only push them so far before you need to rip the whole place apart, or build a new factory.

Any businessman can figure out it's better to sell more of the highly profitable widgets, than the lower profit ones. Looks like no one wants them anyway, cause all the orders are for the highly profitable ones. Maybe they have a pretty good idea of what their customers want. More so than the average internet expert anyway

It's all so easy looking from the outside, with no input on what is actually going on. It is fun to do the old "if i was them i'd do this" thing though. There's no repercussions for getting it wrong, that's for sure.

Remember when everyone was telling me no one wanted Thailand Specials with decent engine options and disc brakes on the rear axle? That what they offered to the market was fine because they sold in numbers anyway.

You've got to offer it as an option to actually find out, just because it was offered nearly 10 years ago and didn't work back then, doesn't mean that the playing field hasn't changed now.

Kinda like how everyone else abandoned the micro car segment except for Kia because it 'wasn't profitable' and now you see Kia Picanto's everywhere that are now $10K more than they used to be.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Remember when everyone was telling me no one wanted Thailand Specials with decent engine options and disc brakes on the rear axle? That what they offered to the market was fine because they sold in numbers anyway.

You've got to offer it as an option to actually find out, just because it was offered nearly 10 years ago and didn't work back then, doesn't mean that the playing field hasn't changed now.

Kinda like how everyone else abandoned the micro car segment except for Kia because it 'wasn't profitable' and now you see Kia Picanto's everywhere that are now $10K more than they used to be.

Yeah, and the lower priced models are stacking up in dealers yards, so people have already made that choice. They would rather wait a year to get a Wildtrak instead.

So I don't know what else needs to prove that people aren't wanting the cheapy models. Proof is in the pudding. Or should they just build more of them to stack the dealers yards even further? Solid business choice that would be.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Yeah, and the lower priced models are stacking up in dealers yards, so people have already made that choice. They would rather wait a year to get a Wildtrak instead.

So I don't know what else needs to prove that people aren't wanting the cheapy models. Proof is in the pudding. Or should they just build more of them to stack the dealers yards even further? Solid business choice that would be.

Enlighten me, what is the 'cheap' model worth for a single cab 4x2?

Plenty of Hilux Workmates out on the road, so they're selling people just aren't buying Ford ones.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Remember when everyone was telling me no one wanted Thailand Specials with decent engine options and disc brakes on the rear axle? That what they offered to the market was fine because they sold in numbers anyway.

You've got to offer it as an option to actually find out, just because it was offered nearly 10 years ago and didn't work back then, doesn't mean that the playing field hasn't changed now.

Kinda like how everyone else abandoned the micro car segment except for Kia because it 'wasn't profitable' and now you see Kia Picanto's everywhere that are now $10K more than they used to be.

I thought the Mercedes ute was going to show the Segment people were will to pay extra for bigger engines and features, maybe the were prices a bit too far as they seem to have flopped.

or it might just be that Australia's Market is big enough to alter a global manufacturer.

I believe the Micro cars make no profit, I think despite being smaller they still cost nearly as much to make as the larger cars to manufacture

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Enlighten me, what is the 'cheap' model worth for a single cab 4x2?

Whatever someone is willing to pay

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

I thought the Mercedes ute was going to show the Segment people were will to pay extra for bugger engines and features, but I think they were prices a bit too far as they seem to have flopped.

or it might just be that Australia's Market is big enough to alter a global manufactuer.

I believe the Micro cars make no profit, I think despite being smaller they still cost nearly as much to make as the larger cars to manufacture

Being essentially a tarted up Navara was what killed it.

[Franco Cozzo]

To refresh your memory from the discussions about the Thailand Specials in the past how ones with decent engines wouldn't sell - how many Raptors and V6 variations are they selling now they're offered to the market?

Apparently no one wanted them until it was an option offered to the market and suddenly look at this people are buying a twin turbo unleaded V6 variation of the Ranger.

Originally Posted by prydey

It wouldn't matter. There would be something else to pick on if they were.

Folks just love to hate dual cabs on here. Mostly because they contradict everything they thought they knew about the buying public. Big engines and going fast don't matter to Joe public.

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

The Hilux 4L Petrol was dropped due to low sales. do you really think they are going to go to the effort of making a 5L to please a few hoons.

I think there's some confusion here

duel cabs are work/weekender/tow/family vehicles
they are quite versatile and not surprisingly have become popular - they are not sports cars.

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

Hilux TRD flopped too

Originally Posted by prydey

I can't. There may be a percentage of the market that would buy one but its my opinion that it would be a very small percentage. If performance was that important, surely the model with the most performance would be further up the sales charts? Amorok barely gets a mention most months.

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

There’s more to off road performance than speed. These will handle a bush trail like a king. How many people who buy one will do baja style high speed desert running? 2 fifths of f all. It’s not even really a thing in australia.

Some people on here need to get real. We don’t really have anything like the americans do in terms of baja style tracks. Need to face facts that big petrol motors in dual cab utes is a US thing only.

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Drive the thing before judging it you buffoons.

It's not a drag car ffs.

Originally Posted by jpd80

In other news,
Ford engineers tells "critics" or is that potential buyers that they are wrong about
the engine choice they wanted in a Raptor.

Maybe we should go back to who buys Ranger in the first place and why few if any,
have asked for a petrol V6 or Turbo I-4. What is it that those actual Raptor buyers want?
Is it a cookie cutter mini-me of the US Raptor or do they want a go fast in the bush diesel
truck that comes without worry of going through tons of fuel in the bush?

Me thinks, Ford is looking to Ranger buyers graduating to a higher level, not a truck for GT car buyers.

Originally Posted by Nu66et

Saying we dont get a choice is a cop out. Ranger and Hilux had 4L V6's against diesels no comparison to whats on the market now, and werent popular. The market made the decision, it wasnt made for them.

If you want to co.pare what this Raptor will be compared to the used market, maybe you should be looking at a Great Wall. You could just as easily compare a 2012 Ranger with a plethora of aftermarket gear.

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

As for the engine we are a diesel market. Simple as that. They have given us what the market is buying in 99% of cases. Would you hedge your bets on the 1% or the 99%?

Sure the powerstroke V6 would have been good but does anyone here even know if it fits, considering the Ranger only comes with inline engines and not V configuration.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Being essentially a tarted up Navara was what killed it.

Yeah we know that - but most Buyers wouldn't have.
it had Mercedes engine options and Mercedes interior plus that big badge on the Front.

That's surely enough to be differentiated from the Nissan

[Franco Cozzo]

I note that there's no single cab 4x2 variation on carsales, the cheapest being a povvo spec dual cab XL at $45K DA:

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/new...sis-bodystyle/

You know how people don't actually use dual cab utes for work purposes, that might be why the povvo spec model isn't selling.

They don't even list a 4x2 single cab on their website either.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

To refresh your memory from the discussions about the Thailand Specials in the past how ones with decent engines wouldn't sell - how many Raptors and V6 variations are they selling now they're offered to the market?

Apparently no one wanted them until it was an option offered to the market and suddenly look at this people are buying a twin turbo unleaded V6 variation of the Ranger.

Hang on... - my comments were related to making a V8 version, and about how much more it would cost.
re petrol versions things have changed a bit since then ie the ridiculous price of diesel, how far back were those posts?

PS Ive always been an advocate for the ECOBOOST saying Ford Australia seem to be missing it

[barra240t]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Enlighten me, what is the 'cheap' model worth for a single cab 4x2?

Plenty of Hilux Workmates out on the road, so they're selling people just aren't buying Ford ones.

If we are wanting to compare apples with apples Toyota only offer a high ride diesel in a manual at around $35k d/a, I think "if" Ford had a manual it would roughly end up the same as an offer price- if they wanted to play offer price.

Ford aren't able to play in the $30k mark because a) no petrol engine and has not been since I dunno PX/2015 maybe? The old 2.5L non turbo thing b) no low rider. I remember it did start gaining traction at mid to high 20s but then the engine was deleted, I'm not sure if it was due to emissions.

In regards to this heading of the thread, my opinion is the walk up from XL/XLS into XLT is too narrow.

XL BT double cab pickup auto $53430 walk up $900 into the equivalent XLS (exc XLS pack which is only another $750)

XLS BT double cab pickup auto $54330 walk up $6860 into the equivalent XLT

Those there are the reasons, not really rocket science.

[Giant Cranium]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Yeah, and the lower priced models are stacking up in dealers yards, so people have already made that choice. They would rather wait a year to get a Wildtrak instead.

So I don't know what else needs to prove that people aren't wanting the cheapy models. Proof is in the pudding. Or should they just build more of them to stack the dealers yards even further? Solid business choice that would be.

4 people i know have had a budget of 60k for a new ute, all 4 bought a max as they didn't want a 2L ranger even though its better in all other metrics.

if ford build 3L xl and xls they will sell. but ford are happy to use those lower models for fleet and push private buyers higher

the proof of this will be px 1 2 3 model breakdowns to engine size in 4x4. many more would be 3.2 in the lower grades that offered the 2.2

[Giant Cranium]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

I thought the Mercedes ute was going to show the Segment people were will to pay extra for bigger engines and features, maybe the were prices a bit too far as they seem to have flopped.

or it might just be that Australia's Market is big enough to alter a global manufacturer.

I believe the Micro cars make no profit, I think despite being smaller they still cost nearly as much to make as the larger cars to manufacture

it flopped because it was a 90k navara, it was also a bad look for tradies to show up in it when quoting.

[Giant Cranium]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

Yeah we know that - but most Buyers wouldn't have.
it had Mercedes engine options and Mercedes interior plus that big badge on the Front.

That's surely enough to be differentiated from the Nissan

when on site taking utes the person would quickly realise what they wanted as the boys would have enlightened the potential buyer

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Giant Cranium

it flopped because it was a 90k navara, it was also a bad look for tradies to show up in it when quoting.

I think you are correct, even if its a Ute that Euro badge brings a stigma.

But for some reason its ok to turn up in a fully decked out 70 series which costs a lot more.

I guess the Classy Ranger flys under the Radar, cos it just a Ford

[barra240t]

Originally Posted by Giant Cranium

4 people i know have had a budget of 60k for a new ute, all 4 bought a max as they didn't want a 2L ranger even though its better in all other metrics.

if ford build 3L xl and xls they will sell. but ford are happy to use those lower models for fleet and push private buyers higher

the proof of this will be px 1 2 3 model breakdowns to engine size in 4x4. many more would be 3.2 in the lower grades that offered the 2.2

If the built 3L in XL/XLS they wouldn't be in that lower price bracket though, its a $3k premium from BT to V6.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

Hang on... - my comments were related to making a V8 version, and about how much more it would cost.
re petrol versions things have changed a bit since then ie the ridiculous price of diesel, how far back were those posts?

PS Ive always been an advocate for the ECOBOOST saying Ford Australia seem to be missing it

It's just cherry picking comments out of context. I wouldn't let it bother you.

I actually went and asked about an XL a couple of weeks ago. I don't need/want 4wd and the 2L has ample performance. It turns out they aren't actually that cheap. The list price is around $45k + on roads, but it gets nothing. Not even sure that includes a tray. No steps, no brake controller, povo lights, budget interior... By the time you add a few extras, it's within a sniff of the XLT.

I'd say that's the real reason they aren't selling that well.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by prydey

It's just cherry picking comments out of context. I wouldn't let it bother you.

I actually went and asked about an XL a couple of weeks ago. I don't need/want 4wd and the 2L has ample performance. It turns out they aren't actually that cheap. The list price is around $45k + on roads, but it gets nothing. Not even sure that includes a tray. No steps, no brake controller, povo lights, budget interior... By the time you add a few extras, it's within a sniff of the XLT.

I'd say that's the real reason they aren't selling that well.

Out of context? They're comments about Ford Rangers in a thread about Ford Rangers, and now they're being used in another thread about Ford Rangers - I'm not sure how much more 'in context' I could be.

To sum it up for you, you were all wrong, the market only buys what the market is offered.

You're all convinced that no one wanted a large capacity engine in a Thailand Special, or high powered ones, until there was one on the market and now you have a 12 month wait for one.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by barra240t

In regards to this heading of the thread, my opinion is the walk up from XL/XLS into XLT is too narrow.

XL BT double cab pickup auto $53430 walk up $900 into the equivalent XLS (exc XLS pack which is only another $750)

XLS BT double cab pickup auto $54330 walk up $6860 into the equivalent XLT

Those there are the reasons, not really rocket science.

Just saw this after posting my own comments saying basically the same thing. I agree.

Can see it 2 ways. XL and XLS are too expensive for what they are or...

XLT is good value.

Probably a bit of both.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Whatever someone is willing to pay

And clearly, for an entry level workhorse, buyers can't see value in $45K for a base model XL single cab chassis.

I know Ford really don't offer a direct competitor to the Hilux Single Cab Workmate with the petrol engine, but that is what people are left to buy now at that corner of the market.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Out of context? They're comments about Ford Rangers in a thread about Ford Rangers, and now they're being used in another thread about Ford Rangers - I'm not sure how much more 'in context' I could be.

If it needs explaining then you're never going to get it.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by prydey

If it needs explaining then you're never going to get it.

'I was wrong' would be the suitable response from you I think.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by prydey

Just saw this after posting my own comments saying basically the same thing. I agree.

Can see it 2 ways. XL and XLS are too expensive for what they are or...

XLT is good value.

Probably a bit of both.

Originally Posted by prydey

I actually went and asked about an XL a couple of weeks ago. I don't need/want 4wd and the 2L has ample performance. It turns out they aren't actually that cheap. The list price is around $45k + on roads, but it gets nothing. Not even sure that includes a tray. No steps, no brake controller, povo lights, budget interior... By the time you add a few extras, it's within a sniff of the XLT.

I'd say that's the real reason they aren't selling that well.

Agreed. Ford (and others to be fair) realize they have a cash cow and know they can ask whatever they want now.

I bought my current Ranger for just on $30,000 in 2016. I'm now looking at least $45,000 to replace my current car. That extra $15,000 includes a standard auto gearbox and more features, but it also includes a stuff that I don't want either.

Ford are just lazy. Look at other car companies with volume sellers, it often allows them to offer more variation because the volume affords it. Think about what Mazda have done over the last 15 years, they gave buyers choice rather than the take-it-or-leave-it approach of Ford.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Ford are just lazy. Look at other car companies with volume sellers, it often allows them to offer more variation because the volume affords it. Think about what Mazda have done over the last 15 years, they gave buyers choice rather than the take-it-or-leave-it approach of Ford.

I'm not sure the others are much different. Mazda just rebadge someone else's efforts. I'm not sure how many others offer multiple engine options but the ones that are selling are generally all the same driveline.

Toyota are more the exception rather than the rule. Have been for many years.