So like me you thought it was OK to plug a 10amp device into a 15amp outlet.

[Franco Cozzo]

For the record, circuit breaker protects the wiring in the wall, RCD protects humans.

RCBO is a combination of both circuit breaker and RCD, when you pay for a switchboard upgrade they usually put RCBOs in to replace old fuses or circuit breakers.

Then you might have to pay extra when they trip all the time diagnosing issues with old appliances and earth leakage problems

RCD monitors what's going in/out of the active and neutral wires, so if there's current going out the active and it's not all coming back through the neutral wire we've got a human in the circuit and we better cut the power.

I think that's the gist of it anyway, real sparkies here to confirm.

There's also sketchy bullshit with old houses and earthing through pipes in the ground that puts the fear of God into plumbers with earth faults, people getting tingles from taps and plumbers cutting pipes and becoming part of the circuit when they grab both sides of it or something.

How good is electricity, kills people and you can't see it, you can certainly feel it though

[whynot]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

Can you post a link for me to a source please?

https://www.safetyquip.com.au/produc...screened-lead/



https://www.auselectronicsdirect.com...nd-up-reel-15a


15M Extension Board with Wind-up Reel - 15A
Convenient 15m Extension Cable with 15A Plug and Sockets
A convenient store and use extension cable with 3 pin 15A AC plug with extra large pin, 3 x 10A outlets and 1 x 15A outlet with a maximum loading of 3600W. Features a master On/off power switch, over temperature and overload protection. Heavy duty frame and easy to carry around with handle.
Dimensions: 325x265x130mm

I should add, the 10A plug should go into a 15A DETA outlet. I am not a big fan of shutters on outlets (but I understand why they are there). I often struggle with getting a darn 10A plug into a 10A socket. If you have any non-hydrocarbon silicone based grease, you can put a thin smear on the tips of the plug prongs.

[aussiblue]

Thanks muchly.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by whynot

.
Those arguing about the upstream protection size are barking up the wrong tree here as well. Most domestic power circuit are either protected by a 16 amp fuse or a 20 amp circuit breaker. (And, these days, hopefully everything is also covered by an RCD.) If one looks at the operating characteristic of both, in the overload part of the curve, they are about the same. The 20A circuit breaker is much, much, better in clearing short circuits than the 16 amp fuse.

I take it that the bold comment was directed at me. At least you're clued in to my concern being about fault current and not normal operating draw (that answers b0son's question). Appreciate the explanation you've offered, wn.

I'll admit that this is not my area of expertise. But I do have some knowledge of the subject. I'm an electrical engineer (I can hear all you sparkies groaning right now ) although I haven't really practiced in that space for a few years now, anf I have undertaken electrical inspectors training (for those who don't know, these are the folks that check on the work licenced sparkies complete), although, for full disclosure, that was done years ago and in never sat the exam, so my competency wasn't assessed. One thing I did learn though, is that even the soarkies on our course had a lot of different views on some of the trickier elements of as300 and a lot held incorrect views according to our trainer. A bit like asking people on these forums questions about some of our road rules

And I also did a stack of research when I was setting up my 240v system for my camper trailer, and I specifically recall reading (perhaps as3001? ) that you can't plug in a 10a plug and lead into a 15a socket outlet at a caravan park so I ended up getting one of these

https://www.discounttrader.com.au/pr...wer-block-box/. (that might help blue, but he probs won't need the ip54 rating)

Perhaps that is what I'm thinking of. I don't have access to the standards at the moment, so I'll bug out until I get a chance to look at them, and chat to our electrical compliance officer next week. I'm not above admitting I've got it wrong, if that turns out to be the case, and I'll retract my previous posts if so.

[Itsme]

Safety shutters built in gpo's are only there to stop children and big kids (adults) sticking objects into the slots, has nothing to do stopping using 10 amp leads into 15amp gpo's.

[Citroënbender]

In a similar vein, I’ve always agonised over whether it’s best to add the flour to the sugar, or the sugar to the flour when baking.

I liked the thorough posts here by whynot.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

I take it that the bold comment was directed at me.

Never, ever, let the opportunity to ruffle the feathers of an electrical engineer go by ... (with a really big nudge and a wink).

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

although I haven't really practiced in that space for a few years now

Yeah, me too. But I still have my ticket and occasionally dabble with the tools.

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

... that you can't plug in a 10a plug and lead into a 15a socket outlet at a caravan park

That surprised me. I can clearly recall being taught by the TAFE instructors that the design of a 15A outlet was specifically done to allow the acceptance of a 10A plug. When this topic came up, my first impression was that there had been a standard change recently that I had missed. Unfortunately (and this really makes me grind my teeth), access to AS3112 requires a payment of $250. After quite a bit of digging around, I am reasonably sure that this hasn't changed for this use case. But, if I am wrong, I will get an admin to edit my post.

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

At least you're clued in to my concern being about fault current

I am struggling to understand why you would be concerned about the potential change to the loop and Z-loop impedance characteristics. Most domestic circuits are protected by a 20A circuit breaker. Most dedicated 15A socket-outlets are also protected by a 20A circuit breaker as well. The chief difference is the permissible number of outlets per circuit under Table C9. A 1mm2 conductor inside an appliance has to withstand the same I2/T curve in both examples.

This AS3008 on-line calculator is a handy way to check. Tick the boxes for short-circuit current rating and loop impedance.

https://www.jcalc.net/cable-sizing-calculator-as3008

While we are at it, there is also a legitimate way to connect a 15A plug into a 10A socket - provided - there is a 10A circuit breaker between the plug and socket. This limits the maximum draw to 10A, and so can be legally installed in the 10A outlet. A use case for this is when a caravan is parked at home and it just needs trickle supply for the fridge and maybe a few lights.

As an aside, I started to write up a technique on how to correctly apply lubrication to a 15A outlet. But it started to read like a novel found at the back of the shop, and I though better of it.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by whynot

Never, ever, let the opportunity to ruffle the feathers of an electrical engineer go by ... (with a really big nudge and a wink).



Yeah, me too. But I still have my ticket and occasionally dabble with the tools.



That surprised me. I can clearly recall being taught by the TAFE instructors that the design of a 15A outlet was specifically done to allow the acceptance of a 10A plug. When this topic came up, my first impression was that there had been a standard change recently that I had missed. Unfortunately (and this really makes me grind my teeth), access to AS3112 requires a payment of $250. After quite a bit of digging around, I am reasonably sure that this hasn't changed for this use case. But, if I am wrong, I will get an admin to edit my post.



I am struggling to understand why you would be concerned about the potential change to the loop and Z-loop impedance characteristics. Most domestic circuits are protected by a 20A circuit breaker. Most dedicated 15A socket-outlets are also protected by a 20A circuit breaker as well. The chief difference is the permissible number of outlets per circuit under Table C9. A 1mm2 conductor inside an appliance has to withstand the same I2/T curve in both examples.

This AS3008 on-line calculator is a handy way to check. Tick the boxes for short-circuit current rating and loop impedance.

https://www.jcalc.net/cable-sizing-calculator-as3008

While we are at it, there is also a legitimate way to connect a 15A plug into a 10A socket - provided - there is a 10A circuit breaker between the plug and socket. This limits the maximum draw to 10A, and so can be legally installed in the 10A outlet. A use case for this is when a caravan is parked at home and it just needs trickle supply for the fridge and maybe a few lights.

As an aside, I started to write up a technique on how to correctly apply lubrication to a 15A outlet. But it started to read like a novel found at the back of the shop, and I though better of it.

I don't have access to the standards at home, but a trawl through the Internet found this. This is what I was referring to for my camper trailer setup (my bold):

What you wish to do is covered by Australian Standard AS/NZS3001 and these rules are legally enforced in each Australian State.

Note several considerations of these Rules:
1) You are permitted to use a flexible cable to supply "transportable structures" which includes motor vehicles being used for accomodation.
2) This cable is required to be rated at 15A, be of "heavy duty" and not less than 10m long.

As3001 is the standard for Electrical installations - Transportable structures and vehicles including their site supplies

I had assumed, and perhaps incorrectly, that this requirement was based upon as3000 requirements and therefore applicable to blues case. It may be the case that this requirement is only required in the case of transportable structures and vehicles.

Hope that clarifies the basis of my input.

[gkhn]

I always used this on a 10amp power outlet while testing faulty devices. That way the building's curcuit/fuse/breaker is isolated and protected in case the device pulled more than 10amps.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/114396538968
https://www.arlec.com.au/wp-content/files/PB94.pdf
Make sure you get the genuine Arlec one. With other brands, you are playing with fire.

I don't see why this cannot be plugged into a 15amp power outlet.
Plugging 10amp into 15amp.. If the device is faulty, it could pull more than 10amps and won't break your buildings breaker or may cause fire. Hence the device.

[Citroënbender]

I’m sure this belongs more in The Bar - it’s scarcely “General automotive related talk”.

Nonetheless, it reminded me of this, where some of the “conclusions” suggested by the author raise an eyebrow. https://www.thehogring.com/2019/05/0...-airbag-seams/

[aussiblue]

I’m sure this belongs more in The Bar - it’s scarcely “General automotive related talk”.

I think it's one and the same place CB/

This is the area to start, general automotive chat, chin wag at the bar, help advice is all here.

[X-AHH]

Originally Posted by whynot

As an aside, I started to write up a technique on how to correctly apply lubrication to a 15A outlet. But it started to read like a novel found at the back of the shop, and I though better of it.

I covered this. Despite the fact that you ""though" better of the situation, if you have a better way to achieve a good result, why not share your wealth of knowledge with the rest of us.

Don't worry about it sounding like a novel, you've made us accustomed to that already: lol

[whynot]

Originally Posted by xahh

Don't worry about it sounding like a novel, you've made us accustomed to that already: lol

That was a joke on my part.

Sorry that you don't like the detail. My view is that most people here are smart enough to read it and figure things out. If they are going to get confused, then lack of detail won't help either.

[X-AHH]

Originally Posted by whynot

That was a joke on my part.

No harm done, were just all trying to help people in the best way possible with the knowledge we've all accumulated over the decades.

[SumoDog68]

It is ok to plug in 10A into 15A outlet . No issue whatsoever . 15A outlets you have are protected separately because they are dedicated circuits . You can only have one 15A outlet on one dedicated circuit in domestic installation.
Anything that you plug into those outlets does not necessarily pull rated outlet current at all or at all times .

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

It is ok to plug in 10A into 15A outlet . No issue whatsoever . 15A outlets you have are protected separately because they are dedicated circuits . You can only have one 15A outlet on one dedicated circuit in domestic installation.
Anything that you plug into those outlets does not necessarily pull rated outlet current at all or at all times .

Quite safe and ok to plug 10amp power lead into a 15amp gpo outlet.

[aussiblue]

I received a message from another forum member yesterday that said in part:

Hello Aussieblue,
As someone who regularly plugs 10A in to my 15A points I have followed your thread with interest. This morning I emailed Building and Energy WA and asked the question. Can’t believe how quickly someone from the Energy Safety Compliance Team called , the fellow I spoke with said there is no issues at all with 10A in to 15A, a lot went over my head but basically the circuit is still protected and a 15A socket is designed to take both.

:

So I also emailed the Energy Safety Compliance Team at the WA at Building and Energy WA at be.energy@dmirs.wa.gov.au relaying the advice given from DETA via Bunnings Workshop Forum site and I was also assured that there is absolutely no issues at all with plugging a 10 amp plug into into 15 amp socket and it was perfectly safe to do so as basically the circuit is still protected and that a Australian 15A socket is meant to be designed to take both. The also said that they were puzzled as to why DETA would produce a 15amp socket that could not take a 10amp plug. So this certainly raises questions about the advice from DETA or even perhaps to what extent their products meets Australian standards.

[Interceptor]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

1. It wasn't a counter jocky it was the one of the staff that run the Hardware Forum now called Bunnings Workshop and he consulted HPM and DEETA and I assume Bunnings own technical staff.

Whats the bet they dont know AS300 chapter and verse, that theyre not licensed electricians, and are only regurgitating what their computer says?

Originally Posted by aussiblue

2. DETA and HPM both make 15 AMP outlets so at least they would have the AS/NZS 3112 and all technical manufacturing and safety knowledge required at their fingertips.

Reading something, and being able to understand and apply it are two different things.

Originally Posted by aussiblue

3. But in this case also to prevent 10 amo plugs being inserted into 15 amp sockets.

Which has no practical or required purpose.

Originally Posted by Warrenk

The adaptors are so you can plug a 15a lead into a 10a GPO. Won't have any effect on what the subject is about.

Originally Posted by roKWiz

and the subject is about running 10amp appliance from 15amp power point or did I miss something.

10A plug *should* plug into a 15A socket quite happily, but a 15A plug is physically incapable of being inserted into a 10a socket because of the oversized earth pin.

Originally Posted by b0son

So there are 10amp devices that if they see a 15A source, will accept that 15A and burn out? I'm no sparkie, but I thought a device is designed to take what it needs, not what's available?

Nope, a device will only draw as much current as its rated at regardless of the supply.
The source will supply as much current is demanded of it up to the capacity of the fuse or circuit breaker.

Originally Posted by whynot

2) There are legit 15A socket-outlet to 10A plug adapters that incorporate a miniature 10A CB. This might be a cheaper option than getting a sparkie out to fix the existing 15A outlet or installing a 10A beside it.

Wrong way around, OP needs a 15A plug and 10A socket.

Originally Posted by whynot

https://www.safetyquip.com.au/produc...screened-lead/
https://www.auselectronicsdirect.com...nd-up-reel-15a

Both of which are really expensive ways of having a simple, short 15A extension lead that will happily accept a 10a plug

speaking of which...

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

Note several considerations of these Rules:
1) You are permitted to use a flexible cable to supply "transportable structures" which includes motor vehicles being used for accomodation.
2) This cable is required to be rated at 15A, be of "heavy duty" and not less than 10m long.

I wouldve thought that the requirement would specify a maximum cable length, not minimum. I know my local mitre 10 sells HPM branded 15a extension leads specifically labelled for caravan connection.

Originally Posted by gkhn

I always used this on a 10amp power outlet while testing faulty devices. That way the building's curcuit/fuse/breaker is isolated and protected in case the device pulled more than 10amps.

The buildings 15a circuit will happily supply a faulty device with up to 15 amps of current without problem and will do so with an appropriate safety margin.
The faulty device, however, may not cope so well.

Originally Posted by aussiblue

The also said that they were puzzled as to why DETA would produce a 15amp socket that could not take a 10amp plug. So this certainly raises questions about the advice from DETA or even perhaps to what extent their products meets Australian standards.

Goes back to what I said about DETA not being a credible source, and my rebuttal to your comment.
Theres a reason no reputable electrical wholesaler stocks DETA.

Ultimately, the quickest, easiest and most affordable answer to your question would be to use the shortest 15 amp extension lead you can find as an adapter.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

I received a message from another forum member yesterday that said in part:

:

So I also emailed the Energy Safety Compliance Team at the WA at Building and Energy WA at be.energy@dmirs.wa.gov.au relaying the advice given from DETA via Bunnings Workshop Forum site and I was also assured that there is absolutely no issues at all with plugging a 10 amp plug into into 15 amp socket and it was perfectly safe to do so as basically the circuit is still protected and that a Australian 15A socket is meant to be designed to take both. The also said that they were puzzled as to why DETA would produce a 15amp socket that could not take a 10amp plug. So this certainly raises questions about the advice from DETA or even perhaps to what extent their products meets Australian standards.

Do yourself a favour, either purchase Clipsal or HPM brand for quality electrical products and stay away from inferior Deta rubbish.

Cheers

[aussiblue]

Just to be clear the double 15amp outlet in my shed isn't a DETA one; it's a Voltex one (similar to this https://www.voltexelectrical.com.au/...-ip53-15a.aspx ) that was supplied by the electrician who installed it. DETA only came into the discussion as the Bunnings guys who run the Hardware Workshop consulted with them and HPM as outlined in my opening post. I must admit I also thought it was a DETA as it looks almost identical so it may have come out of the same Chinese factory.

[foxtrot3]

Hi. Is it worth finding out if the shutters can be removed as the description says they are for "maximum weather protection", They may not be required in your situation. I know we were able to take the safety shutters out of some old HPM gpo's to enable their use with non earthed equipment (things with no earth pin). Cheers MD

[aussiblue]

s it worth finding out if the shutters can be removed as the description says they are for "maximum weather protection", They may not be required in your situation.

They are close to the doorway so I would I think prefer to keep them.

[X-AHH]

Well, did you lubricate your holes and try again?

[whynot]

Originally Posted by Interceptor

Wrong way around, OP needs a 15A plug and 10A socket.

Edit. Deleted post.

Whoops. Apologies to Interceptor. It is me who should actually read the post correctly.

[Citroënbender]

Originally Posted by X-AHH

Well, did you lubricate your holes and try again?

DH Lawrence would have been off and running by now.

[aussiblue]

Well, did you lubricate your holes and try again?

No; as I could actually plug the 10amp plugs in albeit there was some resistance and they seemed to move to a point where the contact isn't as good as it should be. Initially when I first plugged the 10amp plugs in I had to wobble them in a vertical direction up and down to get them in and the devices didn't always power up unless I pushed them up slightly in a vertical direction as if they weren't properly seating. However, I now think this may all have been because the shutters were stiff and previously had only been used with 15amp plugs and even then in recent years only occasionally (mostly with the car lift about twice a year). I guess I should take the cover off and check there is no signs of water ingress or corrosion though. I am a little reluctant to try the lubricant as when I do have 15 amp devices (i.e, the car lift) plugged in they are part of fairly weighty heavy duty cabled that hang almost verbally from the sockets and I am concerned that they may simply fall partially or wholly out of the sockets under their own weight if lubrication was used. In any event, I am now finding that after plugging these 10 amp plugs in many time over now they are now going in much easier and powering up immediately and there is no existing issue.

My initial post was really mostly for awareness and discussion of what I though at the time, based on the Bunnings advice, was a newly discovered safety issue rather than solving a problem. Thanks for all the input and advice everyone.

[Interceptor]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

Just to be clear the double 15amp outlet in my shed isn't a DETA one; it's a Voltex one (similar to this https://www.voltexelectrical.com.au/...-ip53-15a.aspx ) that was supplied by the electrician who installed it. DETA only came into the discussion as the Bunnings guys who run the Hardware Workshop consulted with them and HPM as outlined in my opening post. I must admit I also thought it was a DETA as it looks almost identical so it may have come out of the same Chinese factory.

fwiw, voltex are pretty much in the same basket as deta, cheap imported garbage

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

No; as I could actually plug the 10amp plugs in albeit there was some resistance and they seemed to move to a point where the contact isn't as good as it should be. Initially when I first plugged the 10amp plugs in I had to wobble them in a vertical direction up and down to get them in and the devices didn't always power up unless I pushed them up slightly in a vertical direction as if they weren't properly seating. However, I now think this may all have been because the shutters were stiff and previously had only been used with 15amp plugs and even then in recent years only occasionally (mostly with the car lift about twice a year). I guess I should take the cover off and check there is no signs of water ingress or corrosion though. I am a little reluctant to try the lubricant as when I do have 15 amp devices (i.e, the car lift) plugged in they are part of fairly weighty heavy duty cabled that hang almost verbally from the sockets and I am concerned that they may simply fall partially or wholly out of the sockets under their own weight if lubrication was used. In any event, I am now finding that after plugging these 10 amp plugs in many time over now they are now going in much easier and powering up immediately and there is no existing issue.

My initial post was really mostly for awareness and discussion of what I though at the time, based on the Bunnings advice, was a newly discovered safety issue rather than solving a problem. Thanks for all the input and advice everyone.

There was no safety issue - best to stick with proven brands (Clipsal, HPM, Legrand etc.) No electrician i know would install Bunnings Deta or similar. Their advice is in the same category as their product .

[Antonio491]

It's interesting to hear about the challenges with the 10-amp plugs in a 15-amp outlet. It sounds like the initial resistance might have been due to stiff shutters. Good to know that the situation seems to be improving with repeated use. If you decide to check for water ingress or corrosion, hopefully, everything looks good.

[gkhn]

That's exactly what I said. This is why you plug in that device (Portable Power Block With RCD Safety Switch) between your 10A device and the 15A or 10A outlet.

Originally Posted by Interceptor

The buildings 15a circuit will happily supply a faulty device with up to 15 amps of current without problem and will do so with an appropriate safety margin.
The faulty device, however, may not cope so well.