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#31 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,137
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Australia has a false economy built off the ponzi population growth. |
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#32 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,806
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...perhaps then we'd still have a manufacturing industry. can't blame the pollies for this - it's us! |
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#33 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Geelong
Posts: 1,717
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I thought labour costs weren’t much of a factor?
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#34 | |||
Au Falcon = Mr Reliable
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: North West Slopes & Plains NSW
Posts: 4,076
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Quote:
![]() cheers, Maka
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Ford AU Series Magazine Scans Here - www.fordforums.com.au/photos/index.php?cat=2792 Proud owner of a optioned keeper S1 Tickford Falcon AU XR6 VCT - "it's actually a better-balanced car than the XR8, goes almost as hard and uses about two-thirds of the fuel" (Drive.com 2007) |
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#35 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,125
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And what does your equivalent Chinese counterpart in China do it for? Would you be prepared to match his wage? I do not believe the shop floor workers in ford and Holden plants were overpaid. Do you think they were? |
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#36 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,806
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not necessarily, but there's no doubt they were paid significantly more than overseas workers.
if us as consumers want only the cheapest product, then it won't be made here will it? |
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#37 | |||
Au Falcon = Mr Reliable
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: North West Slopes & Plains NSW
Posts: 4,076
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Quote:
![]() cheers, Maka
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Ford AU Series Magazine Scans Here - www.fordforums.com.au/photos/index.php?cat=2792 Proud owner of a optioned keeper S1 Tickford Falcon AU XR6 VCT - "it's actually a better-balanced car than the XR8, goes almost as hard and uses about two-thirds of the fuel" (Drive.com 2007) |
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#38 | |||
IWCMOGTVM Club Supporter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern Suburbs Melbourne
Posts: 17,798
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Quote:
Perhaps buyers didn't really want the vehicles.
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Daniel |
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#39 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,125
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Us aussies are apparently prepared to pay $60k and even more, for cars out of Korea. Or $60k for utes made in Thailand. We’re hardly saving much by buying vehicles made by the hands of third world workers, it’s just that the company fat cats are pocketing the manufacturing savings. Look, if Australian companies could get away with paying us the same wages they pay Chinese and Indian workers they would. The only thing stopping them is unions. |
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#40 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Wagga
Posts: 1,462
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I don't think that is necessarily true.
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FG MKII XR6 Turbo in Kinetic -Auto - Luxury pack - stock as a rock. ![]() DJRTP Gold Team Mate ::: Tickford Racing Gold Member |
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#41 | |||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Catland
Posts: 3,618
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Check out the Aussie debt clock Roddy. You can find it online. Thank goodness we came off a sound base - by 2007 Howard and Costello had reduced the national public debt to a surplus, before it began to grow again after the gfc. Its now still at a manageable level - above 90% is toast time. Of course they reduced said debt by selling off the nations assets: telecom, commonwealth bank, nations gold, etc - not ideal. But neither was Keatings debt in the first place. We must value add if we want to be a first world nation, replacing this productive ability with continued asset bubbles in housing/construction strips out the economys diversity and resilience. Quote:
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I6 + AWD |
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#42 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Catland
Posts: 3,618
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Well, if we automate the production and have supportive legislation then yes, it will...
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I6 + AWD |
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#43 | |||
Au Falcon = Mr Reliable
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: North West Slopes & Plains NSW
Posts: 4,076
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Quote:
![]() ![]() ![]() cheers, Maka
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Ford AU Series Magazine Scans Here - www.fordforums.com.au/photos/index.php?cat=2792 Proud owner of a optioned keeper S1 Tickford Falcon AU XR6 VCT - "it's actually a better-balanced car than the XR8, goes almost as hard and uses about two-thirds of the fuel" (Drive.com 2007) |
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#44 | |||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 2,530
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Quote:
Whilst it was good value for money for consumers, the profits were well below international "standards" from other plants owned by the parent companies, so it was inevitible. And the market for those vehicles had shifted. Proof of that point is that they didn't send the manufacturing of rear-drive 6 & V8 sedans & utes offshore - they simply stopped building them. They weren't replaced with an equivalent because the car makers know they they won't sell enough volume to generate enough profit return, at the price points needed to sell volumes. Look at the V8 Mustang - it works as a business case priced at $65-70K, but how many BA XR8s would they have sold at that price point back in the day? But if they can sell them for not a lot more than a Camry, and have 10x the sales, it can work - albeit at a reduced profit. Quote:
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The unions are responsible for driving up the wages over a period of time, until they became disjointed with the rest of the working class. Think back to the 80s. Factory workers and storemen lived in 3 bedroom houses on the outskirts of the metro area, drove a 2nd had car, and the annual holiday was perhaps interstate to theme parks & the like. That's all they could afford for their family, even with both adults working full time. Someone doing an accounts payable role earnt more than a factory worker or storeman. Nurses earnt a lot more again. Now look at 2015 Factory workers (some appearing on the bleeding heart news) and storemen are living in McMansions, with 2 near-new cars in the driveway, a boat for playtime, and go to Bali every year for a holiday. A factory worker or storeman is now earning more than a nurse, and nearly double an accounts payable person. Someone has to pay for that - the consumer. But the unions will bleat on about "highly skilled workers" - really? When stuff is put together on jigs, and QA checks have been designed & implemented by engineers, there's not a huge amount of skill required to bolt things together. And lets face it - the guy walking in the door for day 1 is not a "highly skilled" worker, nor have they completed a 3-4 year degree to look after a patient, yet they can still demand those pay rates. Not really a "level" playing field, or value for the employer. It's funny how you look at wage rates for the southern states in the USA vs the north. In Kentucky, a car-assembly line worker earns about $14/hr as the minimum wage. Now houses near the plant are only $150K, so yes it's all relative, but at the same company, the plants up north are close to $28. Minimum wages are set at each US state level, and you can even look them up on some of the state government websites. The difference is because of the unions in the north, compared to the south. This is why so much of the US car industry is no longer in Detroit. |
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#45 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,350
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#46 | ||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,125
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Quote:
I'd argue the same point with safety. How many new safety standards did unions set by stopping the job and striking over unsafe work practices? You could say that safety standards are set by workcover, but how did work cover come up with these required safety standards? Quote:
I'd like you to show me how a 20 year old factory worker today can afford a McMansion. Infact, show me how todays 20 year old factory worker can buy an outskirts 3 bed home, and pay cash for a used car? Most 20 year olds either drive a run down car, or have a newer car that is near on 100% financed. Forget McMansions, they'd probably be satisfied if they can buy a 2 bed apartment. Compare factory wage in 1980 to average house price in 1980. Now compare factory wage of today to house price of today. Another curiosity I have is how is it that when you talk to any old car enthusiast they have a story of "Back when I was an apprentice I had a GT Falcon / XU1 Torana / Monaro etc" are they just bogus stories, or could young people back then actually afford nice muscle cars? Do todays youth have the means to buy a GTS Commodore? My uncle bought a 2 year old HZ Monaro on apprentice wages - in cash. This I know to be a true story. |
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#47 | ||
Au Falcon = Mr Reliable
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: North West Slopes & Plains NSW
Posts: 4,076
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^^^Plus how many storeman & factory workers are fulltime now compared to back then? Then there's the casual or part time wages & loadings those workers are on these days etc..
Its complex as i said previously but tied up together along with 457 visa's & other cheap labour schemes thats come along lately. cheers, Maka
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Ford AU Series Magazine Scans Here - www.fordforums.com.au/photos/index.php?cat=2792 Proud owner of a optioned keeper S1 Tickford Falcon AU XR6 VCT - "it's actually a better-balanced car than the XR8, goes almost as hard and uses about two-thirds of the fuel" (Drive.com 2007) |
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#48 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 990
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If we never had Tariffs we could of never had mads cars in Australia in the first place, once the Tariffs were gone that spelt the end of our car industry regardless of what anyone may think.
It's the government who created our car industry here and it's is them who got rid of it and that's the facts. The New World Order is coming and that's why we gave it up, if a product can be made cheaper that's were business will have to go, end of story. Nations governments does not work for the people who vote them in anymore to serve such, it's a one world government who tells other governments what they can do. That's going on now and it is going to be the future regardless of what the people my think or vote.. |
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#49 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: melbourne
Posts: 4,649
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Quote:
Nothing to do with the demand for the car as a product and people meeting that demand to make a profit and improving their produtcs as they went. Tell me did they have tarriffs for the first cars imported into Australia. Making cars was totally organic my grandfather had a workshop in Melbourne putting together model T's in the 20's |
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#50 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,350
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Dr Terry |
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#51 | ||||
Peter Car
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: geelong
Posts: 23,145
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Quote:
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#52 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Catland
Posts: 3,618
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Quote:
NIMBY Edit: just check out some of the pollution articles from China, they are mind blowing.
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I6 + AWD |
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#53 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,350
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Quote:
If you get the number of Holdens built per year & divide that number by the TOTAL wages, you would get a shock. If you follow their logic & just work the number of hours a factory worker actually 'touched' a car that figure is much lower. The problem with their calculations is that the security guards at the front gate, the forklift drivers & the guys working in the canteen still count in production costs, even though they don't actually 'build' the car. I do agree however that Govt. oncosts are a big problem also. I've had my own business for 40+ years & I know this only too well. Dr Terry |
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#54 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: melbourne
Posts: 4,649
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Quote:
The first true cars made in Australia were steam cars. The first of these steam cars, the Phaeton, was made in 1896 by Herbert Thomson and Edward Holmes. harley Tarrant made the first petrol car in 1901. The truth is tariffs or no tariffs it was more practical to make cars here because of our obvious isolation. My point being tariffs did not create the market. |
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#55 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,601
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Tarriffs,high wages,unions.......all BS excuses. We no longer had viable VOLUME!
If you are loosing 10% of your sales volume every year, where are going to be in 10 years?? In 2018, the nations best selling car will move 45k units, not enough to keep a viable factory. As for the supposed “100s of thousands” of auto workers who will be suddenly living under a bridge, that’s BS too, it’s not 1985 anymore, the auto industry and connected industries have been winding down for the last 20 years, those workers have moved onto growth industries. Look at northern Adelaide, not far from Elizabeth, companies are investing in tech, food and logistics, none of these existed 20 years ago. As for the meth heads and Centrelink queue at Elizabeth, they’ll be there because it’s elizabeth, not because Holden have closed down. END RANT
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____________________ 2019 LDV G10 2009 Mitsubishi Express-GONE 2011 Honda Jazz ____________________ |
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#56 | |||||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 2,530
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Quote:
See my highlighted comments you conveniently ignored. It's acbout wage comparisons across roles, and how disjointed it became. You know, they did have 50 year old factory workers in the 80s too, and those in their 30s, 40s & 60s too. They weren't living in McMansions on credit - they lived in housing that was within their means. Almost every new house on a torrens-title block these days seems to have 4 bedrooms and a double garage as a minimum starting point, but that's an even bigger can of worms to do with generous credit and self-entitlement. Quote:
The actual person I'm using as the bleating example was featured on the news, complaining about Holden closing, and losing his job. They went onto say how his wife only worked part time, and couldn't support their family when he finishes up. When the camera panned out to show the house, cars, and boat, I had no sympathy - this was a 40 odd year old couple with kids, living on credit, beyond their means. Quote:
Ask honest people who were born 1945-1955 what their first car was - 99% of them would be 2nd hand basic transportation, and you'll be very lucky to find one or 2 V8s out of 20+ people. Very, very few had the means to finance a performance car (or insure it). But the media only features those stories about the young bloke who buys a GTHO because it's a sensationalist story, then all of a sudden everyone assumes it's the same story across the board. Quote:
Everyone else at the time was driving Geminis, Escorts, XBs, and the odd early Commodore or XD. They were what was affordable to the regular 19-20 year olds in the day. |
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#57 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,350
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Quote:
Car building in Australia prior to WW1 was virtually a cottage industry, each car being hand made most often built on an imported chassis. Proper assembly began with the likes of Holden Motor Body Builders & TJ Richards (which became Chrysler). I think Holden built their first body in 1917 & Richards around 1912. Dr Terry |
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#58 | ||||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,125
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If you want to consider a 60 year old factory worker today in 2018, he has worked through the 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's and 10's and has had access to the wages of each decade, and options to buy a house in any of those decades too. Similarly, a 60 year old in 1985 worked through the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's and had options of real estate when it cost mere pounds to buy. a 20 year old today is on todays wages and must face todays real estate. Quote:
As for the mansions put on top of them? Well go price new homes to be built. Theres not a huge amount to be saved by going a smaller single level home over a larger 2 story one. Quote:
There were factories and industries other than Car Manufacture. But ok, the guy has a nice home presumably near the factory in Elizabeth which is where he worked? From all I hear about Elizabeth, it is a completely undesirable place to live. So best house in the worst suburb? Quote:
But a quick comparison: HJ GTS Monaro new price $6,500 when the average wage was $7,600. 2017 HSV GTS new $100,000ish? when the average wage is under $75,000. In that same 40 year period - Wages increased by ten times. Real estate increased by THIRTY times. As for your convenient example of comparing a factory worker to a Nurse. Its well known that nurses are grossly underpaid. |
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#59 | |||
Au Falcon = Mr Reliable
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: North West Slopes & Plains NSW
Posts: 4,076
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Quote:
We are whinging about the demise of the Falcon & Commodore which were orphan cars because.. If the full range of those two were exported around the globe in their own *niche & if they were wholly owned by Australian corporate entities, they would be alive today imo. Its all ifs & buts now dohh.. *This is the all important bit. cheers, Maka
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Ford AU Series Magazine Scans Here - www.fordforums.com.au/photos/index.php?cat=2792 Proud owner of a optioned keeper S1 Tickford Falcon AU XR6 VCT - "it's actually a better-balanced car than the XR8, goes almost as hard and uses about two-thirds of the fuel" (Drive.com 2007) |
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#60 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: May 2010
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